Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Caiphon]

I would say that it suggests a certain perturbing undercurrent, but he's definitely reasonable in doing so. You could make a point about this kind of being suggestive of a kind of profiling, but at the same time you're completely reasonable to want to keep an eye on shapeshifters of any kind, especially after shapeshifters already subverted your government and these shapeshifters have preexisting connections to the precursor of the subversive shapeshifter that came before. He's not being unreasonable, and that is exactly what makes me think the character is going in a good direction and hopefully won't be reduced to a loot pinata.

I do feel like there is a subtle and indescribable undercurrent that suggests a greater willingness to make heavy-handed decisions. Then again, it may just be the whiplash from Blanduin precluding even rudimentary moral complexity in the Alliance. Either way, I certainly don't think it's an evil decision, and I certainly don't think it condemns you to be a loot pinata.

We've seen what Turalyon can do when pushed back in BfA where he tortured some orc lady with his wife. I think at least part of that undercurrent is that he's one who's willing to do pretty questionable things when he's convinced of the necessity - a 'for the greater good' sort of guy if you will. Which opens some story opportunities where an entity manages to convince him of the 'need' to commit some terrible atrocity, like how Bald Man was somehow convinced that he needed to take over the cosmos to defend it from 'what is to come'.

[Varodoc]

Turalyon displayed great wisdom; not only he has commanded that the Alliance expedition to the Dragon Isles will not be of military nature, but he has even decreed that the Alliance Explorer's League will team up with the Horde Reliquary, mending the wounds between Alliance and Horde.

Yet again his detractors keep being proven wrong by the Story.

Turalyon has moved for peace, with his decree that the Explorer's League will not try to seize land and will form an alliance with the Reliquary. We shall see how the Horde will screw up in 11.0. I can hardly wait!!

My money is on Geya'rah getting Lightbound PTSD and ordering her war machines to nuke an Alliance town. So, you know, your typical orc lore development.

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where in the fucking hell did this happen?
I played through all of BFA and do not remember literally any of this. turylon and alleria were not even in BFA

He is talking about the Shadows Rising, the novel between BfA and SL. He is also omitting crucial detail.

In that novel, Alleria and Turalyon are charged by Anduin with finding Sylvanas. They discover that an orc refugee in Arathi might give them answers. They interrogate the refugee, first trying to get the information diplomatically. The refugee refuses to cooperate and disclose more about Sylvanas' location. At one point, she even spits on Alleria's face (spitting on the face of a world leader is a very serious and grave offence).

Desperate to move on with the mission, Turalyon restrains the refugee with Light bindings while Alleria uses her Void powers to look into the refugee's mind for the information they need.

After the deed is done, the refugee is left damaged mentally (but Azeroth is a supernatural world with healing magical powers, so...), and Alleria even orders her subordinate to provide food and blankets for the Horde refugees in the area.

Some parts of the community have (wrongly/in bad faith) extrapolated this small exchange as "evidence" that Turalyon and Alleria are villains. Even though they resorted to torture solely and exclusively because they needed crucial information on a fugitive war criminal's whereabouts. And afterwards, they made sure to share vital resources with the Horde refugees in the area, which was a generous act of charity.

[Ersula]

My money is on Geya'rah getting Lightbound PTSD and ordering her war machines to nuke an Alliance town. So, you know, your typical orc lore development.

She's like fourth tier Horde leadership. Liadrin would instantly decapitate them if any of the Allied race leaders tried anything like that. Besides that Horde tanks are about as powerful as a grenade launcher without Azerite.

[Caiphon]

He is talking about the Shadows Rising, the novel between BfA and SL. He is also omitting crucial detail.

In that novel, Alleria and Turalyon are charged by Anduin with finding Sylvanas. They discover that an orc refugee in Arathi might give them answers. They interrogate the refugee, first trying to get the information diplomatically. The refugee refuses to cooperate and disclose more about Sylvanas' location. At one point, she even spits in Alleria's face.

Desperate to move on with the mission the mission, Turalyon restrains the refugee with Light bindings while Alleria uses her Void powers to look into the refugee's mind for the information they need.

After the deed is done, the refugee is left damaged mentally (but Azeroth is a supernatural world with healing magical powers, so...), and Alleria even orders her subordinate to provide food and blankets for the Horde refugees in the area.

Some parts of the community have (wrongly/in bad faith) extrapolated this small exchange as "evidence" that Turalyon and Alleria are villains. Even though they resorted to torture solely and exclusively because they needed crucial information on a fugitive war criminal's whereabouts.

There is a fair amount of difference between a villain and a consequentialist. One does evil either for evil's sake or for his own pleasure/profit, while the other is willing to do evil if he believes it results in a net good. Turalyon most certainly means well so he isn't a villain by heart, but due to his tendency to go for the 'greater good' he has the potential to be manipulated into a villain if someone manages to convince him that committing an atrocity will ultimately save the world/Alliance from a greater evil. In contrast Jaina is more of a deontologist that simply isn't willing to do evil, and is thus less likely to be warped into a villain.

[Varodoc]

There is a fair amount of difference between a villain and a consequentialist. One does evil either for evil's sake or for his own pleasure/profit, while the other is willing to do evil if he believes it results in a net good. Turalyon most certainly means well so he isn't a villain by heart, but due to his tendency to go for the 'greater good' he has the potential to be manipulated into a villain if someone manages to convince him that committing an atrocity will ultimately save the world/Alliance from a greater evil. In contrast Jaina is more of a deontologist that simply isn't willing to do evil, and is thus less likely to be warped into a villain.

Your entire argumentation crumbles to dust due to one crucial flaw: he's still better than the Horde.

It is explicitly mentioned that Turalyon tried for one hour to "SOFTLY" interrogate the refugee; then, that he "RELUCTANTLY" agreed to have the refugee tortured.

Tell me, when it comes to the Horde and prisoners, when did the Horde ever "interrogate softly" and when did they ever "torture reluctantly"?

What Turalyon did is not the "major lore event" that you and a few others seem to think it is. Torture is a standard procedure in a cruel and harsh world like Azeroth, that is the cold reality of Warcraft. It is an ugly universe, where everyone has blood on their hands. If anything, this moment stands out for the opposite reasons you have in mind. It shows that Turalyon is so virtuous, so kind, that he doesn't want to torture a random civilian if there's another way. And you would expect more ruthlessness from a grizzled veteran of a space war against literal Satan; yet Turalyon found no pleasure whatsoever. It was with a heavy heart that he proceeded to torture the refugee.

Meanwhile the Forsaken have been lobotomizing civilians since Classic (see the NPC Theresa from Undercity), you will agree with me that painting Turalyon "reluctantly" torturing someone, after "softly" interrogating them for an hour, as some kind of despicable moment is quite hypocritical: especially given the circumstances of the world they are in.

Reminder that they were looking for Sylvanas btw, a dangerous war criminal fugitive who wanted to kill everyone on Azeroth. It's not like they were torturing for fun, like the Forsaken when they lobotomized an innocent woman for science. They used torture because they needed to find Sylvanas before she set in motion some world-ending BS (sadly, they failed ).

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In contrast Jaina is more of a deontologist that simply isn't willing to do evil, and is thus less likely to be warped into a villain.

This part amuses me. Perhaps it should serve as a reminder that Jaina condoned Vereesa's actions in the Purge of Dalaran; such as torturing the defeated sunreavers, by using them as bait for sharks in the sewers.

BfA largely gave Jaina a redemption arc, but let's not forget that she was very cold-hearted and ruthless in MoP. For justified reasons, sure, but she was very ruthless in the Purge, much more ruthless than either Turalyon and Alleria have ever been. Which is why she disagreeing with them on the subject of torture comes off as highly hypocritical and sanctimonious. If she was so against torture, she would have stripped Vereesa of her rank after her torture of defeated sunreaver soldiers.

[Caiphon]

Your entire argumentation crumbles to dust due to one crucial flaw: he's still better than the Horde.

It is explicitly mentioned that Turalyon tried for one hour to "SOFTLY" interrogate the refugee; then, that he "RELUCTANTLY" agreed to have the refugee tortured.

Tell me, when it comes to the Horde and prisoners, when did the Horde every "interrogate softly" and when did they ever "torture reluctantly"?

What Turalyon did is not the "major lore event" that you and others seem to think it is. Torture is a standard procedure in a cruel and harsh world like Azeroth. If anything, this moment stands out for the opposite reasons you have in mind. It shows that Turalyon is so virtuous, so kind, that he doesn't want to torture a random civilian if there's another way.

Meanwhile the Forsaken have been lobotomizing civilians since Classic (see the NPC Theresa from Undercity), you will agree with me that accusing Turalyon of "reluctantly" torturing someone, after "softly" interrogating them for an hour, is hypocritical: given the circumstances of the world they are in.

Reminder that they were looking for Sylvanas btw, a dangerous war criminal fugitive who wanted to kill everyone on Azeroth.

Er... the discussion was not about the Horde but about Turalyon's character. The only thing in danger of crumbling apart here is civil dialogue because somebody is about to fail to restrain his boundless hate for a fictional faction, again.

Anyway, Shadows Rising is literally a textbook example of consequentialism vs deontology - Alleria and Turalyon are willing to perform an objectively evil act (torture) if it means they can potentially address a greater evil (Sylvanas). Jaina on the other hand is horrified by their choices because she places moral emphasis on action itself rather than its consequenes. Consequentialists are vulnerable to being manipulated into evil while deontologists may fail to stop evil due to inaction. It's just how the two pillars of ethics work. One is not superior to the other but each have different weaknesses that can be exploited.

[Varodoc]

Er... the discussion was not about the Horde but about Turalyon's character. The only thing in danger of crumbling apart here is civil dialogue because somebody is about to fail to restrain his boundless hate for a fictional faction, again.

No the discussion is about Turalyon turning into a villain (why do you think this example is always brought up in the context of the Alliance being the "villains" of an expansion?). And so, If Turalyon deserves to be killed off as a raid villain because he reluctantly tortured someone once, then the entire Forsaken race should suffer the same fate. They've been pulling much more unethical shit since Classic.

You say that the Horde has nothing to do with this discussion, but we all know that some people want Turalyon to become a villain because they want Blizzard to villain-bat the Alliance in a BfA 2.0 expansion.

n objectively evil act (torture)

And yet, Khadgar tortured a demon in WoD and no one cared.

Torture is an objectively evil act... but... unless...

Jaina on the other hand is horrified by their choices because she places moral emphasis on action itself rather than its consequenes.

A shame she couldn't apply the same logic to her subordinate's actions in the Purge of Dalaran then...

Consequentialists are vulnerable to being manipulated into evil while deontologists may fail to stop evil due to inaction.

Isn't the entire point of the Horde as a faction that they are pragmatic and care more about the end results? The Pandaren intro scenario comes to mind, where Ji (the panda whose philosophy aligns with the Horde's)

I'd be more concerned about the Horde than Turalyon if I were you.

And we all know why we're having this discussion about Turalyon. It's because some people (Horde players ofc) want an Alliance leader to be the villain and instigator of a faction war for once. "The discussion was not about the Horde", you said this, but let's be real: whenever Turalyon is brought up as a dangerous character, it's always in the context of him starting a future war against the Horde.

What other reason could there possibly be to want Turalyon to become a villain? Showing the dangers of the Light? The Lightbound and Scarlet Crusade already did that, you don't need to villain-bat Turalyon to write that storyline.

[Cheezits]

I like how a major Alliance leader doing something remotely interesting for the first time in years has created this much discourse.

Personally I thought Genn and Mekkatorque were cool in BFA, but oh well.

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I still find the whole outrage about the new Titan lore to be laughable given the prior lore on the Keepers' treatment of the dragons, notwithstanding everything regarding their constructed races or Algalon's gorillion destroyed worlds. Said lore being that they deliberately buffed the Aspects so that they could solve a prophesied endtimes caused by Deathwing defecting, something only possible, mind, because they were buffed in the first place. Then their reward for this (pointless) service was to render them all sterile and consign them to a slow death because they'd run their course and served a utility that wouldn't even be called for had they not been given the blessing.

People whining about new writers having "fascist lore" is really funny and reminds me of how people swore up and down that writing the Light as anything beyond puppy-kissing Walmart Jesus levels of "do no wrong" is bad. At least this time its ACTUALLY how the old lore was represented, and people just forgot/made stupid headcanons about how loving and hands-off the Titans were.

When in reality they had a robot army and a nuke they told them to press the second the world didn't fit their plans.

[Worldshaper]

Seems like there's a sale on in-game services going on.

[Marlamin]

Seems like there's a sale on in-game services going on.

As well as an anniversary pack if anyone missed out on any of the items in there.

[Berkilak]

In contrast Jaina is more of a deontologist that simply isn't willing to do evil, and is thus less likely to be warped into a villain.

I raise you: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I raise you: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran

A person isn't someone who've they are in one moment. Also ignoring context of the Horde hitting Dalaran so....this argument is moot.


Edit: Old god corrrupting/void whispers not withstanding.

[Caiphon]

And yet, Khadgar tortured a demon in WoD and no one cared.

Torture is an objectively evil act... but... unless...

You'll be happy to know that dehumanising and considering other races as literal hellspawn is also universally frowned upon. But seriously don't try to defend torture itself, very few people will take you seriously. One can argue that it's an excusable evil in the most extreme circumstances but nobody in their right minds think it's somehow not evil.

A shame she couldn't apply the same logic to her subordinate's actions in the Purge of Dalaran then...

I'd imagine that's part of the reason why they retconned Purge of Dalaran to have her imprison the Blood Elves rather then murder them outright with frostbolts.

Isn't the entire point of the Horde as a faction that they are pragmatic and care more about the end results? The Pandaren intro scenario comes to mind, where Ji (the panda whose philosophy aligns with the Horde's)

Bold of you to assume there's any shard of philosophy left in the Horde after BfA's butchered storywriting. It's just an amalgam of mostly unrelated races with zero directionality in terms of leadership at the moment.

And we all know why we're having this discussion about Turalyon. It's because some people (Horde players ofc) want an Alliance leader to be the villain and instigator of a faction war for once. "The discussion was not about the Horde", you said this, but let's be real: whenever Turalyon is brought up as a dangerous character, it's always in the context of him starting a future war against the Horde.

What other reason could there possibly be to want Turalyon to become a villain? Showing the dangers of the Light? The Lightbound and Scarlet Crusade already did that, you don't need to villain-bat Turalyon to write that storyline.

A big reason would be to provide an interesting character to pose as a mid or final boss to an expansion, because we've at this point exhausted the Horde stock of relevant NPCs. It becomes quite obvious when you're suggesting a complete nobody (Gey... who?) to be an expansion boss, I mean literally nobody cares about her, I've got plenty of guildmates who are completely unaware of her existence. Sales would plunge below late WoD and SL levels and Microsoft would have Danuser's head on a pole.

Turalyon on the other hand is a prominent lore character that goes all the way back to WC2. He's also got the authority as regent High King to do some real damage if manipulated, unlike Geya'rah who'd have her head bashed in by Thrall and co. before she actually gets anything done. He'd actually invoke some sort of emotion to fight against (be it sadness, regret, schadenfreude or otherwise) and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we face the Light in some future expansion, again unlike Geya'rah who isn't aligned with a cosmic force. Every expansion is a product, and having Turalyon on the cover will sell infinitely better than having Geya'rah on it.

But to be honest as a Horde main I'd just not have faction wars to begin with. I'm actually pretty happy with how DF's forcing the factions to hold hands and sing we are the world.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I agree completely, but don't see it happening without an overall shift in writing direction. His caution towards the Dracthyr makes perfect sense both in light of him being an experienced military leader and given the city's history with dragons, as would what I describe in my second post to Nymrohd. However, we're talking about the writing team that had to have Anduin be influenced by Old Gods to get him to punch Wrathion rather than say, Anduin being mad at the guy who led to multiple world wars and his dad's death. And just this expansion we've been told how bad Uther and Tyrande are for taking Arthas and Sylvanas's action against them and their homes personally.

Ideally, Turalyon and indeed the post-Anduin Alliance would pivot permanently to a more realpolitik and regional expansionism aspect, in their own distinct ways closer to the Vanilla Alliance. More likely is that he'll turn into a baddie to be replaced by a returning Anduin after having an expansion as the Alliance version of Garrosh, if they're lucky, and Sylvanas, if they're not. Most likely is neither of these things happening and Yrel getting the gig, which is at least flashy.

Let me have my copium, Dickmann. Let me have my copium.

Seriously, though, I do think that the current characterization does at least leave room for Turalyon being the Alliance's well-loved but racist grandpa rather than being the victim of vicious battery with the villain bat. I do think that his portrayal thus far has been nuanced—substantially moreso than most other Alliance leaders. Then again, this could be a fluke in the vein of Stonetalon Garrosh.

[Varodoc]

I'd imagine that's part of the reason why they retconned Purge of Dalaran to have her imprison the Blood Elves rather then murder them outright with frostbolts.

I'm talking about Vereesa. There's a scene in the sewers where her Silver Covenant agents are seen using captured sunreavers as literal shark bait food for fun. Jaina never punished Vereesa/Silver Covenant for this.

In addition, she still teleported the blood elves into a PRISON. A magical prison btw. It's reasonable to at least assume that those prisoners could have been tortured... since they were taken to the Violet Hold, a magical prison. And Jaina throughout the entire event was lashing out in an anger at the betrayal, so it's very reasonable to assume that she would have ordered some sunreavers tortured in the Violet Hold.

Which is why Jaina comes off as very hypocritical in the novel.

A big reason would be to provide an interesting character to pose as a mid or final boss to an expansion, because we've at this point exhausted the Horde stock of relevant NPCs. It becomes quite obvious when you're suggesting a complete nobody (Gey... who?) to be an expansion boss, I mean literally nobody cares about her, I've got plenty of guildmates who are completely unaware of her existence. Sales would plunge below late WoD and SL levels and Microsoft would have Danuser's head on a pole.

Turalyon on the other hand is a prominent lore character that goes all the way back to WC2. He's also got the authority as regent High King to do some real damage if manipulated, unlike Geya'rah who'd have her head bashed in by Thrall and co. before she actually gets anything done. He'd actually invoke some sort of emotion to fight against (be it sadness, regret, schadenfreude or otherwise) and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we face the Light in some future expansion, again unlike Geya'rah who isn't aligned with a cosmic force. Every expansion is a product, and having Turalyon on the cover will sell infinitely better than having Geya'rah on it.

But to be honest as a Horde main I'd just not have faction wars to begin with. I'm actually pretty happy with how DF's forcing the factions to hold hands and sing we are the world.

It's just extremely cheap to turn Turalyon from a well-intentioned and pragmatic ruler to an all-out evil despot (and we all know how Blizzard writes their "tyrannical despots that must be dethroned", see MoP Garrosh, BfA Sylvanas, and Mengsk from Starcraft -- all of them are cackling Scooby doo villains, there's not a single shred of complexity and/or ambiguity, it's plain Good vs. Evil story). Turning Turalyon into a villain and making a Siege of Stormwind raid will simply be MoP/BfA rehash with a blue palette instead of a red one, don't expect anything beyond that.

There's really not much left to add on the subject.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I like how a major Alliance leader doing something remotely interesting for the first time in years has created this much discourse.

Agreed. I think it's a good thing, though I maintain my hope they don't just villain bat Turalyon.

People whining about new writers having "fascist lore" is really funny and reminds me of how people swore up and down that writing the Light as anything beyond puppy-kissing Walmart Jesus levels of "do no wrong" is bad.

To be fair, in this instance it is true that the Light isn't really subject to the same degree of moral convolution as normal, human characters. I think it was something of an odd retcon since the Light actually was meant to be a transcendent force which actually was devoid of evil. It seemed especially superfluous since the Light is a religion with multiple followers of multiple stripes, so it is possible for there to be a faction of extreme Light-worshippers who fail to actually execute its will as intended, such as we had with the Scarlet Crusade. We already had a pretty good excuse to have Light-themed baddies.

When in reality they had a robot army and a nuke they told them to press the second the world didn't fit their plans.

Honestly, I think the Titans were always better as cold, amoral Lawful Neutral aliens, which is how they were originally-depicted. This isn't a significant change... according to their portrayal up until Legion. The issue is that Legion and Chronicles kind of derailed this. The introduction of the Void Lords and the like gave Algalon and his ilk a very good reason to exist and made the origination process seem like an unfortunate but wholly necessary thing to save the universe. Unequivocally, planetary genocide is preferable to multiuniversal metaphysical annihilation or eternal torment by the Void Lords. In Legion and in Chronicles, the Titans were portrayed as emotional, fallible and humanlike beings that just happened to possess extraordinary power.

This change is a return to form, but does effectively turn Legion through Shadowlands into an awkward period during which the portrayal of the Titans was entirely different. It's a trough is a continuous line of character, and it makes things feel very inconsistent.

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I still find the whole outrage about the new Titan lore to be laughable given the prior lore on the Keepers' treatment of the dragons, notwithstanding everything regarding their constructed races or Algalon's gorillion destroyed worlds. Said lore being that they deliberately buffed the Aspects so that they could solve a prophesied endtimes caused by Deathwing defecting, something only possible, mind, because they were buffed in the first place. Then their reward for this (pointless) service was to render them all sterile and consign them to a slow death because they'd run their course and served a utility that wouldn't even be called for had they not been given the blessing.

Honestly, that still needs a good explanation. Maybe Dragon Isles will open the path for a retcon that could help render that more sensible due to the amount of stupidity that it accidentally lends the Titans.

As for the Titans as a whole, my other comment on this matter sums it up. I like the reversal to the pre-Chronicle portrayal of the Titans as cold, alien authoritarian beings, but this also confuses things because they're also portrayed as fallible, emotional, and very much moral beings in Chronicles and Legion.

[Cherry123]

what's the Turalyon debate, haven't you read Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark Portal? read and you understand that he is as soft as Anduin.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

what's the Turalyon debate, haven't you read Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark Portal? read and you understand that he is as soft as Anduin.

Isn't that the book where he decides that Orcs don't have souls and deserve death?

[Cheezits]

As for the Titans as a whole, my other comment on this matter sums it up. I like the reversal to the pre-Chronicle portrayal of the Titans as cold, alien authoritarian beings, but this also confuses things because they're also portrayed as fallible, emotional, and very much moral beings in Chronicles and Legion.

Chronicles is now doubly confirmed as Keeper fanfic, and in Legion they were just doing what they had to do to survive. I don't remember them doing anything beyond aiding us in freeing their souls and then restraining Sargeras.

[Cherry123]

Isn't that the book where he decides that Orcs don't have souls and deserve death?

Even the pacifist Anduin cursed Guldan's Horde