Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[AOL Instant Messenger]

There's 0 chance of Wrathion going evil, but I am worried/already writing off Sabellian.

Disregard that—while you were typing, I realized I accidentally wrote "Wrathion". I meant to write "Sabellian". As you can see, I edited that just a fleeting moment before you posted that. This is just an instance where I can't get my point across on account of the fact that I'm an idiot.

[Super Dickmann]

Disregard that—while you were typing, I realized I accidentally wrote "Wrathion". I meant to write "Sabellian". As you can see, I edited that just a fleeting moment before you posted that. This is just an instance where I can't get my point across on account of the fact that I'm an idiot.

Happens to the best of us. On the plus side, I ended up replying to a lot of what you later expanded on without knowing you'd already written in it, so we're covered.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

everything else

As for the rest of this, I don't have anything to add beyond "yep, pretty much". Sabellian works best because Wrathion is simply a character who is fairly interesting on his own and I can see continuing to grow and develop effectively as an independent agent, whereas Sabellian is a character who is established as a leader figure by his nature. Both are very good characters and both have different reasons that one could argue for them to be crowned Aspect, but I just lean ever so slightly to Sabellian just because it precludes him being unnecessary labeled a villain and another older character getting whacked.

From a Watsonian perspective, of course, Sabellian plain deserves it on account of the fact that he's a competent leader who wants to actually take responsibility and isn't quite as hot-headed or short-sighted as Wrathion is, but on a Doylist perspective I would not be dissatisfied with either because any character in a high leadership and relevant lore position with some degree of moral convolution and an actual personality would be good. If I trusted Blizzard to know how to write interpersonal conflict for an extended period of time without one party randomly being demonized, I'd even be all good with a long-term schism in the Black Dragonflight.

- - - Updated - - -

nostalgia and fanwankery.

To be entirely fair, I frankly think that these aren't bad things to appeal to per se. A major problem with the narrative thus far is that it's sort of become a Ship of Theseus—there's so little connection between certain elements of the old and new lore, and so many older characters have come and gone, that any lynchpin of stability would be a good thing.

I'd also say that his questing still did characterize him effectively as someone who makes a good leader—he's not an established character, but he has the makings of both a good character and, from the Watsonian perspective, a good leader. We see throughout the Blade's Edge Mountains questline that he is interested in generally advancing the agenda of the people under his charge and that he makes an active effort to eradicate immediate and serious existential threats to them. He seems decently cooperative with other parties (if fairly gruff and rude) and very competent.

[Super Dickmann]

If I trusted Blizzard to know how to write interpersonal conflict for an extended period of time without one party randomly being demonized, I'd even be all good with a long-term schism in the Black Dragonflight.

Pretty much. There's nothing wrong with keeping the spot open. I'll need to write a longer-form response on the belf thing on the other thread, but in general there's nothing wrong with keeping a plot open. In fact, quite the opposite in an MMO, since having both options leaves more story opportunities and the format precludes any definitive ending. So once you solve someone's story too thoroughly, they just have to truck along doing fuck all. Neither Sabellian nor Wrathion really have this problem, since they're flexible enough in usage, especially Wrathion who recovered from having the thing he was allegedly preparing for take place entirely in his absence, but the Primalist/Aspect conflict for example isn't something that really needed to be settled for all time. The stakes can basically be just regional so long as they fight each other, no one's destroying the world, and they're interesting enough ideas to keep going. There's a reason I maintain that the Wrath ending was actually one of the wisest Blizzard calls because it kept the Scourge on the board.

[oathy]

Can't help feeling an expansion rebuilding Azeroth after the battering it's taken would have worked better.
hit level 65 on my main just now and it feels like all the quests have been done better in other expansions.
There's not a lot of imagination, What I had pleased about was the Talent system and getting some spells back
like the rifts for my destruct lock.

A good indicator is the wow token price it's now at 270k, It's not been that low in months.

[Cheezits]

Can't help feeling an expansion rebuilding Azeroth after the battering it's taken would have worked better.
hit level 65 on my main just now and it feels like all the quests have been done better in other expansions.
There's not a lot of imagination, What I had pleased about was the Talent system and getting some spells back
like the rifts for my destruct lock.

A good indicator is the wow token price it's now at 270k, It's not been that low in months.

They weren't ready for a world revamp. I agree it would've been better, but based on the old-world models they STILL had to update (Gnolls, Centaurs, airships, boats etc) there is still a lot of work that needs to be done to ship out an EK/Kalimdor expansion.

[Sondrelk]

Can we take a moment to talk about how the writers clearly had to have changed their mind at some point as to whether the Dragon Isles were dormant or not? Because that seemed to have been the original intent, what with decayed buildings and the seeming permanent cloud layer in the trailer. But once we get there it's clear that everyone kept going like nothing had happened. Ohn'ara even went there often, so I don't see why the Dragons couldnt. Emerald Dragons especially, the portal is right there.

[Nymrohd]

Here is the thing. Nothing about Wrathion being the last black dragon enabled him to do whatever he did. He is not a particularly powerful dragon, he doesn't have some unique magic either.
What made Wrathion special was that he actually had the drive to save the world. He fucked up a lot but he was still there and he was still trying because he thought that was what he was supposed to do with his life. Though I am not giving credit to the writers for doing this, he is a poster child for infantile omnipotence who then grows up to be a the "precocious teenager that saves the world from the apocalypse while surrounded by vastly more qualified adults" which has been the bread and butter of teenager media for at least two decades now.
So while I don't expect any nuance I see to be intentional my character perceives Wrathion as a well intentioned teenager that causes disasters, while Sabellian has no good intentions and doesn't give a crap about Azeroth up until there is some power for him to claim (else he'd have moved to Azeroth soon after N'zoth died instead of waiting for the Dragon Isles and the prospect of becoming an Aspect). Ultimately I can trust that Wrathion will be there when we need him far more than I can trust Sabellian to be there (Legion notwithstanding but I just blame the writers for that brainfart).

- - - Updated - - -

Can we take a moment to talk about how the writers clearly had to have changed their mind at some point as to whether the Dragon Isles were dormant or not? Because that seemed to have been the original intent, what with decayed buildings and the seeming permanent cloud layer in the trailer. But once we get there it's clear that everyone kept going like nothing had happened. Ohn'ara even went there often, so I don't see why the Dragons couldnt. Emerald Dragons especially, the portal is right there.

My assumption is that the other cultures just kept living their lives as always while the various dragonspawn servants slowly abandoned their posts in the rest of the Isles and moved to Thaldraszus.

[Nyel]

Can we take a moment to talk about how the writers clearly had to have changed their mind at some point as to whether the Dragon Isles were dormant or not? Because that seemed to have been the original intent, what with decayed buildings and the seeming permanent cloud layer in the trailer. But once we get there it's clear that everyone kept going like nothing had happened. Ohn'ara even went there often, so I don't see why the Dragons couldnt. Emerald Dragons especially, the portal is right there.

I don't get this either. So life was sprawling on the Dragon Isles and it was never a forgotten and lost place? I mean there are entire civilizations on the Dragon Isles. This gives me some strange flashbacks to Broken Isles when we "discovered" them. It just doesn't feel genuine or natural, contrary to Pandaria, which was introduced with another sentiment - which worked, whereas it pretty much does not in the other cases.

[Reinhart11]

I think only the titan constructs and races like the djaradin went dormant, while the magic removed the knowledge how to reach the islands from the dragons minds and prevents them to gain the knowledge. The other living beings remained active, but stuck on the isles.

Ohnara represents a problem though, if she could leave at will. She should have been stuck there as well.

[huth]

I think only the titan constructs and races like the djaradin went dormant, while the magic removed the knowledge how to reach the islands from the dragons minds and prevents them to gain the knowledge. The other living beings remained active, but stuck on the isles.

Ohnara represents a problem though, if she could leave at will. She should have been stuck there as well.

Not the knowledge, the ability. They knew exactly where they were, they just couldn't get there and the barrier could only be opened from inside. That's what the first cinematic with stony boi was about.

What went dormant was mostly elemental energies, "regular" mortals were pretty much unaffected.

With Ohn'ara, there's the question of how much she is physically present, or if she's pulling something like Kalecgos in the mountains.

[Sondrelk]

I don't get this either. So life was sprawling on the Dragon Isles and it was never a forgotten and lost place? I mean there are entire civilizations on the Dragon Isles. This gives me some strange flashbacks to Broken Isles when we "discovered" them. It just doesn't feel genuine or natural, contrary to Pandaria, which was introduced with another sentiment - which worked, whereas it pretty much does not in the other cases.

Broken Isles i could get behind. Like most islands on Azeroth we always knew where it was and how to get there, we just never had any reason to.

[Cheezits]

I can see the Emerald Dream portal having something to do with the Ohnara mystery. We don't have any confirmation that the portal was turned off with Tyrhold.

Remember that there is an "echo" of Tyrande and Malfurion bringing the seed to Merithra. What if it isn't a future chapter, but actually a tease that the Nelves and the Green snuck into the Isles a while back using the portal?

Also: Tyr---- has a model, and is pre-Galakrond

https://twitter.com/portergauge/stat...OniZ6P8kcpUZxA

[Izalla]

Professions actually feel like more a part of the game and my character than they ever have, and for the first time ever I am excited to have the same professions on alts that I do on my mains instead of just taking gathering professions to feed my mains!

[Cheezits]

Professions actually feel like more a part of the game and my character than they ever have, and for the first time ever I am excited to have the same professions on alts that I do on my mains instead of just taking gathering professions to feed my mains!

The system is insanely confusing, however.

[Xilurm]

https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...83307283689472

I really hate that people have power over stuff like this because they whine.

Writers can't have creative freedom because someone got offended. Fucking narcissistic jerks.

[Sondrelk]

https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...83307283689472

I really hate that people have power over stuff like this because they whine.

Writers can't have creative freedom because someone got offended. Fucking narcissistic jerks.

I dunno, the questline was very odd all around. It felt like it was building to us allying with the gnolls to kill the mage, the gnolls were far more likeable anyways.
It's a slightly humorous take on the murderhobo archetype where we go in and just start killing gnolls by the hundreds, especially given the gnolls there are weaker and more numerous, but it doesnt really do much more than that. You just go in and help a mage kill loads of gnolls because of flimsy reasons essentially boiling down to "gnolls are generally evil".
Again. Making the ending one where we achieve peace with the gnolls by kicking out the mage would have been a much more fitting and funny ending.

[loras]

I dunno, the questline was very odd all around. It felt like it was building to us allying with the gnolls to kill the mage, the gnolls were far more likeable anyways.
It's a slightly humorous take on the murderhobo archetype where we go in and just start killing gnolls by the hundreds, especially given the gnolls there are weaker and more numerous, but it doesnt really do much more than that. You just go in and help a mage kill loads of gnolls because of flimsy reasons essentially boiling down to "gnolls are generally evil".
Again. Making the ending one where we achieve peace with the gnolls by kicking out the mage would have been a much more fitting and funny ending.

+1
Though honestly it's fine as is as well.
I mean we barely know exceptions to evil amongst gnolls, it's not like the mage has no point at all.

So yeah, leaving one generic evil gnoll army versus one comically evil mage might actually be the best resolution, morally speaking.

I mean us siding sith the gnolls would be comical, but the followup to that in turn could just as easily be that we discover that the gnolls ate our allies when we weren't looking.
Not for any particular reason, they were just hungry and gnolls.

[Cheezits]

The portayal of the Gnolls and the Djaradin this expansion are great. 95% enemies with a couple friendly weirdos like Monark and the story telling guy.

I would like the Djaradin to have a peace treaty made with the dragons, and would love playable Gnolls, but their presentation as mostly enemies with reasonable behaviors and cool cultures is nice. I'm tired of the "rebel faction good guys" trope.

[Nyel]

The system is insanely confusing, however.

Yep. They went from pointless professions to making them 100x more confusing just for the sake of making them "complex" (which they are not - they are just confusing). It's better than what we had before, but it's a complete overload of reagents, materials, traits, stuff you can craft etc.