1. #71001
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Er... the discussion was not about the Horde but about Turalyon's character. The only thing in danger of crumbling apart here is civil dialogue because somebody is about to fail to restrain his boundless hate for a fictional faction, again.
    No the discussion is about Turalyon turning into a villain (why do you think this example is always brought up in the context of the Alliance being the "villains" of an expansion?). And so, If Turalyon deserves to be killed off as a raid villain because he reluctantly tortured someone once, then the entire Forsaken race should suffer the same fate. They've been pulling much more unethical shit since Classic.

    You say that the Horde has nothing to do with this discussion, but we all know that some people want Turalyon to become a villain because they want Blizzard to villain-bat the Alliance in a BfA 2.0 expansion.
    n objectively evil act (torture)
    And yet, Khadgar tortured a demon in WoD and no one cared.

    Torture is an objectively evil act... but... unless...

    Jaina on the other hand is horrified by their choices because she places moral emphasis on action itself rather than its consequenes.
    A shame she couldn't apply the same logic to her subordinate's actions in the Purge of Dalaran then...

    Consequentialists are vulnerable to being manipulated into evil while deontologists may fail to stop evil due to inaction.
    Isn't the entire point of the Horde as a faction that they are pragmatic and care more about the end results? The Pandaren intro scenario comes to mind, where Ji (the panda whose philosophy aligns with the Horde's)

    I'd be more concerned about the Horde than Turalyon if I were you.

    And we all know why we're having this discussion about Turalyon. It's because some people (Horde players ofc) want an Alliance leader to be the villain and instigator of a faction war for once. "The discussion was not about the Horde", you said this, but let's be real: whenever Turalyon is brought up as a dangerous character, it's always in the context of him starting a future war against the Horde.

    What other reason could there possibly be to want Turalyon to become a villain? Showing the dangers of the Light? The Lightbound and Scarlet Crusade already did that, you don't need to villain-bat Turalyon to write that storyline.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-11-17 at 06:41 PM.

  2. #71002
    I like how a major Alliance leader doing something remotely interesting for the first time in years has created this much discourse.

    Personally I thought Genn and Mekkatorque were cool in BFA, but oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I still find the whole outrage about the new Titan lore to be laughable given the prior lore on the Keepers' treatment of the dragons, notwithstanding everything regarding their constructed races or Algalon's gorillion destroyed worlds. Said lore being that they deliberately buffed the Aspects so that they could solve a prophesied endtimes caused by Deathwing defecting, something only possible, mind, because they were buffed in the first place. Then their reward for this (pointless) service was to render them all sterile and consign them to a slow death because they'd run their course and served a utility that wouldn't even be called for had they not been given the blessing.
    People whining about new writers having "fascist lore" is really funny and reminds me of how people swore up and down that writing the Light as anything beyond puppy-kissing Walmart Jesus levels of "do no wrong" is bad. At least this time its ACTUALLY how the old lore was represented, and people just forgot/made stupid headcanons about how loving and hands-off the Titans were.

    When in reality they had a robot army and a nuke they told them to press the second the world didn't fit their plans.

  3. #71003
    Pandaren Monk Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Seems like there's a sale on in-game services going on.

  4. #71004
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Seems like there's a sale on in-game services going on.
    As well as an anniversary pack if anyone missed out on any of the items in there.

  5. #71005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    In contrast Jaina is more of a deontologist that simply isn't willing to do evil, and is thus less likely to be warped into a villain.
    I raise you: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran

  6. #71006
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    A person isn't someone who've they are in one moment. Also ignoring context of the Horde hitting Dalaran so....this argument is moot.


    Edit: Old god corrrupting/void whispers not withstanding.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2022-11-17 at 07:09 PM.
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  7. #71007
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    And yet, Khadgar tortured a demon in WoD and no one cared.

    Torture is an objectively evil act... but... unless...
    You'll be happy to know that dehumanising and considering other races as literal hellspawn is also universally frowned upon. But seriously don't try to defend torture itself, very few people will take you seriously. One can argue that it's an excusable evil in the most extreme circumstances but nobody in their right minds think it's somehow not evil.



    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    A shame she couldn't apply the same logic to her subordinate's actions in the Purge of Dalaran then...
    I'd imagine that's part of the reason why they retconned Purge of Dalaran to have her imprison the Blood Elves rather then murder them outright with frostbolts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Isn't the entire point of the Horde as a faction that they are pragmatic and care more about the end results? The Pandaren intro scenario comes to mind, where Ji (the panda whose philosophy aligns with the Horde's)
    Bold of you to assume there's any shard of philosophy left in the Horde after BfA's butchered storywriting. It's just an amalgam of mostly unrelated races with zero directionality in terms of leadership at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    And we all know why we're having this discussion about Turalyon. It's because some people (Horde players ofc) want an Alliance leader to be the villain and instigator of a faction war for once. "The discussion was not about the Horde", you said this, but let's be real: whenever Turalyon is brought up as a dangerous character, it's always in the context of him starting a future war against the Horde.

    What other reason could there possibly be to want Turalyon to become a villain? Showing the dangers of the Light? The Lightbound and Scarlet Crusade already did that, you don't need to villain-bat Turalyon to write that storyline.
    A big reason would be to provide an interesting character to pose as a mid or final boss to an expansion, because we've at this point exhausted the Horde stock of relevant NPCs. It becomes quite obvious when you're suggesting a complete nobody (Gey... who?) to be an expansion boss, I mean literally nobody cares about her, I've got plenty of guildmates who are completely unaware of her existence. Sales would plunge below late WoD and SL levels and Microsoft would have Danuser's head on a pole.

    Turalyon on the other hand is a prominent lore character that goes all the way back to WC2. He's also got the authority as regent High King to do some real damage if manipulated, unlike Geya'rah who'd have her head bashed in by Thrall and co. before she actually gets anything done. He'd actually invoke some sort of emotion to fight against (be it sadness, regret, schadenfreude or otherwise) and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we face the Light in some future expansion, again unlike Geya'rah who isn't aligned with a cosmic force. Every expansion is a product, and having Turalyon on the cover will sell infinitely better than having Geya'rah on it.

    But to be honest as a Horde main I'd just not have faction wars to begin with. I'm actually pretty happy with how DF's forcing the factions to hold hands and sing we are the world.

  8. #71008
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I agree completely, but don't see it happening without an overall shift in writing direction. His caution towards the Dracthyr makes perfect sense both in light of him being an experienced military leader and given the city's history with dragons, as would what I describe in my second post to Nymrohd. However, we're talking about the writing team that had to have Anduin be influenced by Old Gods to get him to punch Wrathion rather than say, Anduin being mad at the guy who led to multiple world wars and his dad's death. And just this expansion we've been told how bad Uther and Tyrande are for taking Arthas and Sylvanas's action against them and their homes personally.

    Ideally, Turalyon and indeed the post-Anduin Alliance would pivot permanently to a more realpolitik and regional expansionism aspect, in their own distinct ways closer to the Vanilla Alliance. More likely is that he'll turn into a baddie to be replaced by a returning Anduin after having an expansion as the Alliance version of Garrosh, if they're lucky, and Sylvanas, if they're not. Most likely is neither of these things happening and Yrel getting the gig, which is at least flashy.
    Let me have my copium, Dickmann. Let me have my copium.

    Seriously, though, I do think that the current characterization does at least leave room for Turalyon being the Alliance's well-loved but racist grandpa rather than being the victim of vicious battery with the villain bat. I do think that his portrayal thus far has been nuanced—substantially moreso than most other Alliance leaders. Then again, this could be a fluke in the vein of Stonetalon Garrosh.

  9. #71009
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    I'd imagine that's part of the reason why they retconned Purge of Dalaran to have her imprison the Blood Elves rather then murder them outright with frostbolts.
    I'm talking about Vereesa. There's a scene in the sewers where her Silver Covenant agents are seen using captured sunreavers as literal shark bait food for fun. Jaina never punished Vereesa/Silver Covenant for this.

    In addition, she still teleported the blood elves into a PRISON. A magical prison btw. It's reasonable to at least assume that those prisoners could have been tortured... since they were taken to the Violet Hold, a magical prison. And Jaina throughout the entire event was lashing out in an anger at the betrayal, so it's very reasonable to assume that she would have ordered some sunreavers tortured in the Violet Hold.

    Which is why Jaina comes off as very hypocritical in the novel.

    A big reason would be to provide an interesting character to pose as a mid or final boss to an expansion, because we've at this point exhausted the Horde stock of relevant NPCs. It becomes quite obvious when you're suggesting a complete nobody (Gey... who?) to be an expansion boss, I mean literally nobody cares about her, I've got plenty of guildmates who are completely unaware of her existence. Sales would plunge below late WoD and SL levels and Microsoft would have Danuser's head on a pole.

    Turalyon on the other hand is a prominent lore character that goes all the way back to WC2. He's also got the authority as regent High King to do some real damage if manipulated, unlike Geya'rah who'd have her head bashed in by Thrall and co. before she actually gets anything done. He'd actually invoke some sort of emotion to fight against (be it sadness, regret, schadenfreude or otherwise) and it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we face the Light in some future expansion, again unlike Geya'rah who isn't aligned with a cosmic force. Every expansion is a product, and having Turalyon on the cover will sell infinitely better than having Geya'rah on it.

    But to be honest as a Horde main I'd just not have faction wars to begin with. I'm actually pretty happy with how DF's forcing the factions to hold hands and sing we are the world.
    It's just extremely cheap to turn Turalyon from a well-intentioned and pragmatic ruler to an all-out evil despot (and we all know how Blizzard writes their "tyrannical despots that must be dethroned", see MoP Garrosh, BfA Sylvanas, and Mengsk from Starcraft -- all of them are cackling Scooby doo villains, there's not a single shred of complexity and/or ambiguity, it's plain Good vs. Evil story). Turning Turalyon into a villain and making a Siege of Stormwind raid will simply be MoP/BfA rehash with a blue palette instead of a red one, don't expect anything beyond that.

    There's really not much left to add on the subject.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-11-17 at 07:31 PM.

  10. #71010
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I like how a major Alliance leader doing something remotely interesting for the first time in years has created this much discourse.
    Agreed. I think it's a good thing, though I maintain my hope they don't just villain bat Turalyon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    People whining about new writers having "fascist lore" is really funny and reminds me of how people swore up and down that writing the Light as anything beyond puppy-kissing Walmart Jesus levels of "do no wrong" is bad.
    To be fair, in this instance it is true that the Light isn't really subject to the same degree of moral convolution as normal, human characters. I think it was something of an odd retcon since the Light actually was meant to be a transcendent force which actually was devoid of evil. It seemed especially superfluous since the Light is a religion with multiple followers of multiple stripes, so it is possible for there to be a faction of extreme Light-worshippers who fail to actually execute its will as intended, such as we had with the Scarlet Crusade. We already had a pretty good excuse to have Light-themed baddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    When in reality they had a robot army and a nuke they told them to press the second the world didn't fit their plans.
    Honestly, I think the Titans were always better as cold, amoral Lawful Neutral aliens, which is how they were originally-depicted. This isn't a significant change... according to their portrayal up until Legion. The issue is that Legion and Chronicles kind of derailed this. The introduction of the Void Lords and the like gave Algalon and his ilk a very good reason to exist and made the origination process seem like an unfortunate but wholly necessary thing to save the universe. Unequivocally, planetary genocide is preferable to multiuniversal metaphysical annihilation or eternal torment by the Void Lords. In Legion and in Chronicles, the Titans were portrayed as emotional, fallible and humanlike beings that just happened to possess extraordinary power.

    This change is a return to form, but does effectively turn Legion through Shadowlands into an awkward period during which the portrayal of the Titans was entirely different. It's a trough is a continuous line of character, and it makes things feel very inconsistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I still find the whole outrage about the new Titan lore to be laughable given the prior lore on the Keepers' treatment of the dragons, notwithstanding everything regarding their constructed races or Algalon's gorillion destroyed worlds. Said lore being that they deliberately buffed the Aspects so that they could solve a prophesied endtimes caused by Deathwing defecting, something only possible, mind, because they were buffed in the first place. Then their reward for this (pointless) service was to render them all sterile and consign them to a slow death because they'd run their course and served a utility that wouldn't even be called for had they not been given the blessing.
    Honestly, that still needs a good explanation. Maybe Dragon Isles will open the path for a retcon that could help render that more sensible due to the amount of stupidity that it accidentally lends the Titans.

    As for the Titans as a whole, my other comment on this matter sums it up. I like the reversal to the pre-Chronicle portrayal of the Titans as cold, alien authoritarian beings, but this also confuses things because they're also portrayed as fallible, emotional, and very much moral beings in Chronicles and Legion.

  11. #71011
    what's the Turalyon debate, haven't you read Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark Portal? read and you understand that he is as soft as Anduin.

  12. #71012
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    what's the Turalyon debate, haven't you read Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark Portal? read and you understand that he is as soft as Anduin.
    Isn't that the book where he decides that Orcs don't have souls and deserve death?

  13. #71013
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post

    As for the Titans as a whole, my other comment on this matter sums it up. I like the reversal to the pre-Chronicle portrayal of the Titans as cold, alien authoritarian beings, but this also confuses things because they're also portrayed as fallible, emotional, and very much moral beings in Chronicles and Legion.
    Chronicles is now doubly confirmed as Keeper fanfic, and in Legion they were just doing what they had to do to survive. I don't remember them doing anything beyond aiding us in freeing their souls and then restraining Sargeras.

  14. #71014
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Isn't that the book where he decides that Orcs don't have souls and deserve death?
    Even the pacifist Anduin cursed Guldan's Horde

  15. #71015
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    Even the pacifist Anduin cursed Guldan's Horde
    Yes, but that's different from Turalyon effectively escaping his crisis of faith about Orcs existing because the Light created everything on Azeroth, Orcs are not from Azeroth, therefore the Light could not and did not create something like Orcs. His logic is valid, but it seems pretty harsh to effectively declare an entire race to be exempt from the mercy and justice of a transcendental force. As I said, I don't think he's a villain, but he's definitely not a soft person and seems to have the foundation for a bit of a dark side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Chronicles is now doubly confirmed as Keeper fanfic, and in Legion they were just doing what they had to do to survive. I don't remember them doing anything beyond aiding us in freeing their souls and then restraining Sargeras.
    Their portrayal in Legion is as emotional, humanlike beings which are entirely fallible. There is some room for interpretation, but I read their behavior and the sentiments they project as something that isn't really as alien as they were always otherwise portrayed as.

    I think it would have done wonders simply to portray the Titans as substantially more robotic, alien, or otherwise inscrutable and unemotional in Legion—the portrayal they're stuck with makes everything seem very awkward. Furthermore, although Chronicles is apparently skewed now (which is very stupid, given it was originally supposed to be an absolute final source), the information therein is still broadly correct. Algalon is still something considerably more ethically-justifiable even from an emotional, human perspective—in fact, the absence of the origination process would be more inscrutable or difficult to justify due to how extraordinarily high the stakes are with the Void Lords, essentially rendering any opposition to the idea in any case except the extraordinary circumstances of Loken's meddling unjustifiable except from the most lunatic, self-destructively deontological moral framework because the stakes are metaphysical, as opposed to just physical, annihilation. If it comes down to an eternity of torment/nonexistence due to the Void or physical destruction without harm to essential/spiritual components, the latter seems pretty preferable.

  16. #71016
    Poggers in the chatta? https://twitter.com/unshackled_fury/...xI652xv1OlqQjA

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    Super excited about this considering the reveal of tons of encrypted content already from Ion. Hype!

  17. #71017
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Chronicles is now doubly confirmed as Keeper fanfic, and in Legion they were just doing what they had to do to survive. I don't remember them doing anything beyond aiding us in freeing their souls and then restraining Sargeras.
    It better not be one sided. As in "WELL THE TITANS WERE NAUGHTY ALL ALONG WE HATE THEM NOW"

    Its just.... ugh. Be nice if the Titans were just flawed and not "OH THEY BAD NOW"

    Or it was all Odyn cause he's an asshole like his mythology counterpart.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  18. #71018
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It better not be one sided. As in "WELL THE TITANS WERE NAUGHTY ALL ALONG WE HATE THEM NOW"

    Its just.... ugh. Be nice if the Titans were just flawed and not "OH THEY BAD NOW"

    Or it was all Odyn cause he's an asshole like his mythology counterpart.
    Nothing is really indicating the Titans themselves are anything but what we have seen before though. It's really just the Titan Keepers, Odyn specifically, that are zealously dedicated to the Titans and treating them like gods.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #71019
    There is nothing to discuss in this expansion. Timeskip is the only thing that pushes the plot.

  20. #71020
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    There is nothing to discuss in this expansion. Timeskip is the only thing that pushes the plot.
    Well except titan plans for the Dragon aspects, what the incarnates are planning, Nozdormu turning into Murozond, the hidden Earthen encampments, what The hid on the plates, what Uldorus is, etc.

    Loads to discuss here.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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