1. #71061
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The Wrathion/Sabellian dynamic is the best writing surprise of the expansion, at least so far. They play off each other quite well and I sure hope it's not a device to have one be a villain (which considering Wrathion's popularity will almost certainly be Sabellian).
    Man's got a stock model, no amount of entertaining characterization will save him from dropping [The Baron's Band of Embuggerance] in a patch or two.

    I've not had much time to play thus far, like @Nyel but I genuinely can't tell how Wrathion is meant to come across. Take that bit right after he makes a plunge to protect Alex from Raz and then asks her for military aid 5 mins later and leaves in a huff when she hesitates right after being mauled. Are we meant to see him as impulsive, but well-meaning, since he did risk it? Are we meant to see him as a short-sighted dumbass, since he wants the symbol of the office while he has no people and so he would only be able to hold the position with her help, what with not knowing Sabellian's saved the flight in the interim time? Blizzard and subtlety in framing don't come together but while it's guaranteed he'll be the new leader, how much we're meant to like him as the expansion starts out I can't figure.

    Past that, dragonriding is better than I expected and the actual questing and lore gives me Cataclysm main quest vibes, down to the tone of the levity quests being similar to the Hyjal infiltration or Uldum, for good or bad, except with far more gay couples bonding over dissecting murlocs. The Primalists are a better antagonist than the Twilight's Hammer and Raz better than Cata Deathwing, but that's not exactly a major feat.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-11-30 at 06:06 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  2. #71062
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I've not had much time to play thus far, like @Nyel but I genuinely can't tell how Wrathion is meant to come across. Take that bit right after he makes a plunge to protect Alex from Raz and then asks her for military aid 5 mins later and leaves in a huff when she hesitates right after being mauled. Are we meant to see him as impulsive, but well-meaning, since he did risk it? Are we meant to see him as a short-sighted dumbass, since he wants the symbol of the office while he has no people and so he would only be able to hold the position with her help, what with not knowing Sabellian's saved the flight in the interim time? Blizzard and subtlety in framing don't come together but while it's guaranteed he'll be the new leader, how much we're meant to like him as the expansion starts out I can't figure.
    I think we are meant to see him as a guy in his late teens? Which is all of the above?

  3. #71063
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Wrathion is a teen that was supposed to take over top spot in his Flight. Of course his ego is sky high. There will be defo a humbling arc this expansion.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  4. #71064
    Largely enjoying Dragonflight. Why is all this crap in my bag not currencies though . . .

  5. #71065
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Largely enjoying Dragonflight. Why is all this crap in my bag not currencies though . . .
    And why is that bag so small when you get bombarded with reagents, it's insane honestly. And hard to keep track which non-grey item is useful / used for what / can be sold. It's a giant mess for me right now and I have no idea what I should keep, so I keep everything.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  6. #71066
    The Lightbringer Valysar's Avatar
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    Yeah, reagant bags should have been 50. Quests cap 50... etc

  7. #71067
    The sheep herding quest at the traveling Centaur pack is one of the worst dailies I've ever done. Otherwise the quests are great.

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    Also there is a bug/possibly a teaser? of the Night Elf story.

    https://twitter.com/portergauge/stat...fF6TfkZ90IeUBQ

  8. #71068
    Sindragosa is a 10/10. Her model looks great and I'd even say she would be such a great aspect, a shame she's long gone.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  9. #71069
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think we are meant to see him as a guy in his late teens? Which is all of the above?
    When Blizzard have an ambiguous portrayal it's usually by mistake. Framing tends to be as black and white as it gets.

    Mind, I say that, that one orc in the Life Pools does Sadfang's character arc better in two quests than he does over 30 minutes of excruciating multi-million cinematics and an entire expansion.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #71070
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I don't think that's unintended, so that's not "terrible" writing. Wrathion, as the expansion keeps mentioning, is pretty childish. He's not a narcissist in the sense that a proper adult would be (i.e. mentally ill and kind of dangerous to others), but rather he's "young, dumb, and full of cum", as it were. Certainly it's intended that he looks rather arrogant - but he also a strong streak of insecurity, which the writing also picks up, again, because he's very young.

    So maybe we shouldn't call writing that accurate portrays a character "terrible"? Hmm? I mean that's kind of the whole problem with fan critiques of writing across TV/movies etc. (esp. MCU/SW etc.), where people call writing "terrible" or "bad" because they don't like what it portrays, not because it's not good. And conversely, absolutely fucking SHITE writing, which is clunky, leaden and dumb, gets praised (I'm looking really hard at the MCU right now, and yeah absolutely including stuff like Endgame) because it gives fans what they want to hear.

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    The writing in general is good (for what it is, specific kind of MMO), and there's a ton more of it (esp. given you can often ask people questions etc.), but the Centaurs have a standoffish attitude that I think is always kind of a mistake when genre writers decide to portray it, because it's just kind of unengaging. It's more of a conceptual problem than a writing one, because I don't think anyone ever did it well. Just don't write entire cultures as standoffish lol.
    Quoting this for truth. The amount of bad takes about Wrathion has led me to believe the lore community wouldn't understand good writing even when it's obvious. So many opinions boil down to "I dislike the portrayal, it makes me uncomfortably, unhappy or something like that" when that's more often than not, the entire point. Wrathion has had more of an actual character arc than the entire cast of Warcraft combined.

  11. #71071
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    Quoting this for truth. The amount of bad takes about Wrathion has led me to believe the lore community wouldn't understand good writing even when it's obvious. So many opinions boil down to "I dislike the portrayal, it makes me uncomfortably, unhappy or something like that" when that's more often than not, the entire point. Wrathion has had more of an actual character arc than the entire cast of Warcraft combined.
    Wrathion isn't a bad character, he is an unqualified asswipe though who Blizzard will push through by virtue of name recognition.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #71072
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    Quoting this for truth. The amount of bad takes about Wrathion has led me to believe the lore community wouldn't understand good writing even when it's obvious. So many opinions boil down to "I dislike the portrayal, it makes me uncomfortably, unhappy or something like that" when that's more often than not, the entire point. Wrathion has had more of an actual character arc than the entire cast of Warcraft combined.
    People hate him because Blizzard will choose him as the aspect over Sabellian, despite how much more qualified Sabellian is.

  13. #71073
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Wrathion isn't a bad character, he is an unqualified asswipe though who Blizzard will push through by virtue of name recognition.
    There is no qualified Black Dragon by that logic. I'd rather deal with a character who had actual trials and tribulations than what is effectively nostalgia and fanwankery.

    Edit: If anyone can link or highlight Sabellian having actual lore and arcs in game, please do. Because after doing all of his BC questing, I think people are bsing about his qualifications.
    Last edited by SilverLion; 2022-11-30 at 06:49 PM.

  14. #71074
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Wrathion isn't a bad character, he is an unqualified asswipe though who Blizzard will push through by virtue of name recognition.
    Doesnt that kinda make him the perfect character though? He is the only Black Dragon we know of, and because he additionally has done a lot of interesting stuff with the player he feels that he is the main character in this story.
    Suddenly meeting Sabellian who has often been quoted by more lore savvy players as a potential uncorrupted Black Dragon, who then makes the valid point that he is more qualified to lead, does lead to an almost perfect bit of storytelling genius.

    In short. Wrathion is an asshole who we have had to live with because we believed he was the last dragon. Suddenly having Sabellian back from Outland both makes perfect sense in the story, and leads to a great moment of having to contend with someone unknown, but clearly qualified, taking the spotlight from Wrathion.

    Wrathion has always been insufferable, but in Dragonflight this works in favor of the story, rather than against it like it did after MoP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valysar View Post
    Yeah, reagant bags should have been 50. Quests cap 50... etc
    At least we have a reagent bag. Can you imagine using the same bags as before, except with reagent and crafting quality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    The sheep herding quest at the traveling Centaur pack is one of the worst dailies I've ever done. Otherwise the quests are great.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also there is a bug/possibly a teaser? of the Night Elf story.

    https://twitter.com/portergauge/stat...fF6TfkZ90IeUBQ
    So far the only quests I hate are the Obsidian Citadel ones. Quests in Elite Areas that are not actually elite quests annoy me to no end.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #71075
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    There is no qualified Black Dragon by that logic. I'd rather deal with a character who had actual trials and tribulations than what is effectively nostalgia and fanwankery.

    Edit: If anyone can link or highlight Sabellian having actual lore and arcs in game, please do. Because after doing all of his BC questing, I think people are bsing about his qualifications.
    A cardboard cutout is more qualified than Wrathion by virtue of not almost dooming the world several times and enabling invasions/spurring conflicts of the world he's meant to be defending. A cardboard cutout has also killed less of his brood than he has.

    It's not about the quality of the character, though I find DF Sabellian very solid since the storyline uses his obscurity in his favour, as @Sondrelk says, but purely in terms of the position of the character to go for the job he's after. Things like throwing himself at an Aspect-tier dragon and then begging for another few billion in military aid from an injured Alex so he can liberate a place he can only populate with his humanoid hangers-on. This at the expense of the flights who'd actually be enabling his win, in a position that'd be untenable without an intervention by Sabellian he has no way of knowing about make him an interesting character, as he's been throughout, but as far as the in-story characters are concerned, it's short-sighted, ambitious and inept. I generally enjoy following Wrathion's story, but everyone in the setting who's come into contact with him has had a worse time because of it.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-11-30 at 07:16 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #71076
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Wrathion isn't a bad character, he is an unqualified asswipe though who Blizzard will push through by virtue of name recognition.
    Generally, the office of Black Aspect does make sense as a potential direction for his character, but he'd realistically have to undergo a very good amount of character growth to really be suitable for it. I also would only really be satisfied with that if it didn't somehow involve hitting Sabellian with the villain bat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    A cardboard cutout is more qualified than Wrathion by virtue of not almost dooming the world several times and enabling invasions/spurring conflicts of the world he's meant to be defending. A cardboard cutout has also killed less of his brood than he has.

    It's not about the quality of the character, though I find DF Sabellian very solid since the storyline uses his obscurity in his favour, as @Sondrelk says, but purely in terms of the position of the character to go for the job he's after. Things like throwing himself at an Aspect-tier dragon and then begging for another few billion in military aid from an injured Alex so he can liberate a place he can only populate with his humanoid hangers-on. This at the expense of the flights who'd actually be enabling his win, in a position that'd be untenable without an intervention by Sabellian he has no way of knowing about make him an interesting character, as he's been throughout, but as far as the in-story characters are concerned, it's short-sighted, ambitious and inept. I generally enjoy following Wrathion's story, but everyone in the setting who's come into contact with him has had a worse time because of it.
    That's generally my feelings on the matter—I like Wrathion and think he's a nuanced character. I do hope we get plenty out of him this expansion. However, the office of Earthwarder doesn't seem suitable for him from a Watsonian perspective at the moment, and given the choice between the two I'd prefer Sabellian. More prominently, there is the potential threat that his character will be neutered in the process of taking up the mantle—Blizzard has a habit of giving characters greater relevance at the expense of rendering them more bland as a result. I also think Sabellian is just a breath of fresh air from the typical Golden/Danuser fair, so I just want to see more of him, Earthwarder or not, for that reason without him eventually taking a villain bat to the schnoz.

    For the resolution proper, I'd ultimately be good with either on a Doylist level so long as Sabellian, as I said, does not inexplicably become a villain just so the Wholesum new generation can beat him for being a legacy character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Doesnt that kinda make him the perfect character though? He is the only Black Dragon we know of, and because he additionally has done a lot of interesting stuff with the player he feels that he is the main character in this story.
    Suddenly meeting Sabellian who has often been quoted by more lore savvy players as a potential uncorrupted Black Dragon, who then makes the valid point that he is more qualified to lead, does lead to an almost perfect bit of storytelling genius.

    In short. Wrathion is an asshole who we have had to live with because we believed he was the last dragon. Suddenly having Sabellian back from Outland both makes perfect sense in the story, and leads to a great moment of having to contend with someone unknown, but clearly qualified, taking the spotlight from Wrathion.

    Wrathion has always been insufferable, but in Dragonflight this works in favor of the story, rather than against it like it did after MoP.
    That's how I feel on that front. Wrathion being an insufferable and uppity prick works on a Doylist level, just not the Watsonian. I like his characterization thus far because it generates good conflict. What would be the problem for me is if the writers end up wasting Sabellian, also by all means a good character, by whacking him with the villain bat. Admittedly, the more of this particular arc that comes out the less concerned I am about that, but usually expecting the worst with the narrative direction is sensible.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-11-30 at 07:45 PM.

  17. #71077
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Generally, the office of Black Aspect does make sense as a potential direction for his character, but he'd realistically have to undergo a very good amount of character growth to really be suitable for it. I also would only really be satisfied with that if it didn't somehow involve hitting Wrathion with the villain bat.
    There's 0 chance of Wrathion going evil, but I am worried/already writing off Sabellian. That said, there is meat here. Being an Aspect isn't just having a seat in the chair, it's in the name, it involves a certain magical process. The Earthwarder is connected to the earth in a setting where even now in a generally nice time the earth has continent-sized carcasses of gods in there, along with a recently wounded god. Wrathion's recent story had him stressing about ending up like his dad, being trapped in his body etc. Someone who constantly makes poor decisions without such pressure'd be even more inclined to do them with it on his back. It'd be a place where you could also bring back Anduin and add some more meaning to his stay as a sockpuppet of the Bald Man, because it'd be something they'd have in common.

    Alternatively, if Sabellian weren't doomed, you could just as easily use that for the reason why someone some serious and experienced should take the Aspect gig. Sabellian's main thing is that he's out of the way of corruption and in the DF version used this time to build up his flight and be ready to take responsibility. Wrathion has worked more as a mortal-facing special agent than he has any kind of representative of his flight and his interest in said flight has been mostly aesthetic, what with killing most of those related to it and showing zero interest in rebuilding it. Wrathion has gone after his 'father''s calling without necessarily tying in with his flight and keeping that while also having him have to cooperate with an Aspect Sabellian'd add to that dynamic.

    It's a rare case where both routes are viable, but they heavily hinge on not villainizing either character which isn't Blizzard's strong suite. I have a strong preference for the latter because I like how Sabellian's been presented and the amount of hoops you'd have to jump through to get Wrathion into that spot and have him cope with it are beyond Blizzard's writing talent without fucking with the characterization of a whole host of others, but it's not barren story-wise. Also, let's face it, it's exponentially more likely.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-11-30 at 07:51 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #71078
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There's 0 chance of Wrathion going evil, but I am worried/already writing off Sabellian.
    Disregard that—while you were typing, I realized I accidentally wrote "Wrathion". I meant to write "Sabellian". As you can see, I edited that just a fleeting moment before you posted that. This is just an instance where I can't get my point across on account of the fact that I'm an idiot.

  19. #71079
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Disregard that—while you were typing, I realized I accidentally wrote "Wrathion". I meant to write "Sabellian". As you can see, I edited that just a fleeting moment before you posted that. This is just an instance where I can't get my point across on account of the fact that I'm an idiot.
    Happens to the best of us. On the plus side, I ended up replying to a lot of what you later expanded on without knowing you'd already written in it, so we're covered.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  20. #71080
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    everything else
    As for the rest of this, I don't have anything to add beyond "yep, pretty much". Sabellian works best because Wrathion is simply a character who is fairly interesting on his own and I can see continuing to grow and develop effectively as an independent agent, whereas Sabellian is a character who is established as a leader figure by his nature. Both are very good characters and both have different reasons that one could argue for them to be crowned Aspect, but I just lean ever so slightly to Sabellian just because it precludes him being unnecessary labeled a villain and another older character getting whacked.

    From a Watsonian perspective, of course, Sabellian plain deserves it on account of the fact that he's a competent leader who wants to actually take responsibility and isn't quite as hot-headed or short-sighted as Wrathion is, but on a Doylist perspective I would not be dissatisfied with either because any character in a high leadership and relevant lore position with some degree of moral convolution and an actual personality would be good. If I trusted Blizzard to know how to write interpersonal conflict for an extended period of time without one party randomly being demonized, I'd even be all good with a long-term schism in the Black Dragonflight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    nostalgia and fanwankery.
    To be entirely fair, I frankly think that these aren't bad things to appeal to per se. A major problem with the narrative thus far is that it's sort of become a Ship of Theseus—there's so little connection between certain elements of the old and new lore, and so many older characters have come and gone, that any lynchpin of stability would be a good thing.

    I'd also say that his questing still did characterize him effectively as someone who makes a good leader—he's not an established character, but he has the makings of both a good character and, from the Watsonian perspective, a good leader. We see throughout the Blade's Edge Mountains questline that he is interested in generally advancing the agenda of the people under his charge and that he makes an active effort to eradicate immediate and serious existential threats to them. He seems decently cooperative with other parties (if fairly gruff and rude) and very competent.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-11-30 at 08:05 PM.

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