1. #7701
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I dunno about the artifact system. It's true that it was more exciting than the Azerite system or Soulbind system in being exciting to upgrade, but the issue then is that you quickly run into burnout when upgrades are so good players feel compelled to grind content they dislike to service the content they do like.

    It is definitely true that Artifact power was far more enjoyable to get in Legion than Anima is in SL, but that doesn't mean the grind in Legion was good.
    Still situation when tryhards (cause AK exist, no one had to farm AP 24/7) throw themself into Maw of Souls situation + normal people can do varied content to upgrade their character is better than situation from 9.0: comfortable life for tryhards + casual people completing their weekly progression in two hours. Cause tryhards always have 1000 other stuff to complain about (even completely minor thing like conduit energy was made into major problem) and casuals will just quit.

    Of course situation is far better in S2, Renown takes little more effort, Torghast (although far from perfect) is better and you can make from it casual progression path, Korthia gear is great both as catch up and casual progression path, M+ is easier for people who want to participate. But first impression is always most important.

    Also it's true that we cared more about weapon traits than soulbinds traits, but they felt connected to weapon. You don't give a shit about most of your soulbinds, even if covenant spells + soulbinds + conduit are almost the same (mechanically) as artifact active trait + passive traits + relics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    If they ever want to return to some artifact-esque system, borrowed or not, i hope they do it via class relics.
    Problem is, community will react REEEEEEE to any mention of borrowed power. Even if no one invented yet different solution for never ending progression game like WoW.

    In 10.0 their will either somehow hide next "borrowed power" or move problem to future expansions when cut will be needed.
    Last edited by Dracullus; 2021-09-27 at 09:27 PM.

  2. #7702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Here's an idea. Remove the need for gear from mythic plus. Make it a test of skill rather than a test of gear. Dont increase mob HP and damage. Change mechanics. Make Mythic plus require skill.

    Then, your group wont need the gear it drops. OR do you only play for shiny oversaturated purple titled pieces of gear?

    Just replace those pretty purple item names to sick titles, sick mounts, sick transmogs, etc.. That you can ONLY get from being the best of the best at mythic plus. This is so simple.
    It's a horrible idea. Gear is number one reward in any MMORPG and you just want to take it away, thinking it wont tank the participation (and lol at that contempt towards people wanting gear form content they do)? Not to mention we already had Challenge Modes for two expansions with cosmetic rewards only. Do you really think they were nowhere near the popularity of M+?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-09-28 at 09:31 AM.
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  3. #7703
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    If they ever want to return to some artifact-esque system, borrowed or not, i hope they do it via class relics.

    Just so we can have a personalized system again.

    Gameplay aside, one reason why the artifacts were so well received was due to how personal they were.

    Artifacts were those big, flashy, customizable weapons, with lots of story and personality. (literally, for some weapons).
    The game made it very clear that those weren't just "some" weapons, they were 'our' weapons and 'our' power, that grew and changed alongside us while also allowing us to customize them, making us form an attachment to them.

    Azerite failed miserably in that regard.
    It was an invisible necklace that barely did anything until 8.2.
    Didn't help that it was 'literal' borrowed power and not just in-concept, with absolutely no personality other than Magnis constant screeching about snorting azerite.

    The covenant system is the traumatized child of the 2.
    Its very cosmetic and has some personality, but suffers just as much from it so obviously being 'borrowed' and bound to go away.
    Most of the Soulbinds aren't tied to any actual character making them feel like glorified stack sticks (which... they are, but they could've not felt as such)
    And because they had to distribute player power between the covenants, a lot of players just pick whatever icy-veins tells them to instead of going for the one that actually interests them visually/storywise and just never ends up caring for them due to that.
    This was always the best way to do it. This system could have been kept throughout every expansion and developed further with each new one. I have no idea why they didn't do this after artifacts.

    Something like Azerite traits and Conduits could have been the stuff that's added and kept (aka the passives), Essences and Covenant skills (aka the abilities) would have been the expansion-specific borrowed power. This way we wouldn't lose all of our character progression each expansion and classes would feel more complex and way better than they do at the beginning of every new expansion.
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  4. #7704
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Here's an idea. Remove the need for gear from mythic plus. Make it a test of skill rather than a test of gear. Dont increase mob HP and damage. Change mechanics. Make Mythic plus require skill.

    Then, your group wont need the gear it drops. OR do you only play for shiny oversaturated purple titled pieces of gear?

    Just replace those pretty purple item names to sick titles, sick mounts, sick transmogs, etc.. That you can ONLY get from being the best of the best at mythic plus. This is so simple.
    Now you just removed character progression from people, a core tennet of mmorpgs. Not to mention you could say the same to raiders, just make it a skill check, no gear, or do you only raid for purple loot tags? See how flawed that argument is?
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  5. #7705
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    No that would make Mythic+ participation just drop absolutely. This is a loot based game, removing the loot isn't going to help..at all. Its one thing to have the gear item level to cap to a certain Mythic+ level its another to just remove the gear from the M+ dungeons.
    Then make a it a currency based system as pvp is.

    X amount of Valor per M+. Can purchase gear via valor. ILVL increases per X amount of IO on the ladder and can be upgraded. Gear doesnt drop after M0 from the actual dungeon.

    I mean it was basically this way in the past, when the game was far, far, far more popular.

  6. #7706
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Then make a it a currency based system as pvp is.

    X amount of Valor per M+. Can purchase gear via valor. ILVL increases per X amount of IO on the ladder and can be upgraded. Gear doesnt drop after M0 from the actual dungeon.

    I mean it was basically this way in the past, when the game was far, far, far more popular.
    No, you will just make more people annoyed and arguing from popularism.
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  7. #7707
    This might seem like a weird niggle to bring up at such a random time, but does anyone ever wonder why this expansion doesnt have a bigger Death Knight presence?
    I mean, the expansion literally began with aiding the Ebon Blade attacking the Maw on behest of Bolvar, who I might add is the face of the expansion. The expansion seems absolutely drenched in stuff fitting for Death Knights, and yet the faction itself seems weirdly absent from everything. Some of them patrol Oribos and serve as the Quartermaster in Korthia, but you would think they would be utilized more frequently.
    This is likely the last time they are going to be relevant, and yet nothing of note seems to happen regarding them. The discussion on their state of being and their purpose seems entirely absent from what should be their crowning moment of glory.

    I guess Blizzard wanted to give the "original" characters more of a presence, not to mention DKs already being central to WotLK, but it still feels very weak.
    They could always of course have a bigger presence in the later patches, but for an expansion that is likely to feature Arthas at some point relegating Death Knights to C-list side-characters feels like a waste.

    At least we have gotten some nice Death Knight fitting plate armor from SoD, and will hopefully get a similarly good one once Class Armors return, but compared to Legion where you really felt important playing a DH you would swear Blizzard forgot Death Knights are a playable class.
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  8. #7708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    This might seem like a weird niggle to bring up at such a random time, but does anyone ever wonder why this expansion doesnt have a bigger Death Knight presence?
    I mean, the expansion literally began with aiding the Ebon Blade attacking the Maw on behest of Bolvar, who I might add is the face of the expansion. The expansion seems absolutely drenched in stuff fitting for Death Knights, and yet the faction itself seems weirdly absent from everything. Some of them patrol Oribos and serve as the Quartermaster in Korthia, but you would think they would be utilized more frequently.
    This is likely the last time they are going to be relevant, and yet nothing of note seems to happen regarding them. The discussion on their state of being and their purpose seems entirely absent from what should be their crowning moment of glory.

    I guess Blizzard wanted to give the "original" characters more of a presence, not to mention DKs already being central to WotLK, but it still feels very weak.
    They could always of course have a bigger presence in the later patches, but for an expansion that is likely to feature Arthas at some point relegating Death Knights to C-list side-characters feels like a waste.

    At least we have gotten some nice Death Knight fitting plate armor from SoD, and will hopefully get a similarly good one once Class Armors return, but compared to Legion where you really felt important playing a DH you would swear Blizzard forgot Death Knights are a playable class.
    DK's have smaller presence past the initial Maw experience so Blizz can put Cov armies in the forefront instead. And I prefer it that way with how good Cov boys look. Also, DK's are not that rare. Beside mentioned appearance, Darion shows in Korthia and has a convo with his dad, and in SoD you got Darion and Four Horsemen (with some other nameless Death Knights) following you around.
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  9. #7709
    You're totally right. It just seems odd that Bolvar has been put on the bench just for Thrall and Jaina to be the main protagonists again. Four or five times the charm I guess?

    I think something that would be really cool and unexpected would be that Zovaal still has control over Bolvar and the Death Knights and starts using this control in 9.2. So every Death Knight around that has been an ally becomes an enemy, causing havoc on Azeroth, in Oribos and the Shadowlands (Domination magic or whatever). So our goal is to free Bolvar and the Death Knights - and in the end Anduin - from Zovaal's control and we're achieving this with the help of Arthas, who (ba dum ts) already freed himself from Zovaal back during his days and know how to do it.
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  10. #7710
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    You're totally right. It just seems odd that Bolvar has been put on the bench just for Thrall and Jaina to be the main protagonists again. Four or five times the charm I guess?

    I think something that would be really cool and unexpected would be that Zovaal still has control over Bolvar and the Death Knights and starts using this control in 9.2. So every Death Knight around that has been an ally becomes an enemy, causing havoc on Azeroth, in Oribos and the Shadowlands (Domination magic or whatever). So our goal is to free Bolvar and the Death Knights - and in the end Anduin - from Zovaal's control and we're achieving this with the help of Arthas, who (ba dum ts) already freed himself from Zovaal back during his days and know how to do it.
    That would be pretty great indeed. I always felt like the Horsemen storyline from Legion was just begging to be building up to an awesome boss fight against them.
    Not sure how much I would buy that Arthas has somehow learned how to break away from the Jailer, feel like that would undercut the tragic nature of his story. That being that he has in one sense never been truly free, always being shacked by expectations, his own actions or indeed the Crown and the Jailer.



    From one random non-sequitur to another. As I am currently doing the Kalecgos questline in Legion I am more convinced than ever that the major failing of Shadowlands beyond the droughts is simply that the theme is not very excitint to explore.
    I imagine the systems of Shadowlands moved almost completely wholesale over to Legion and damn it feels like it would be absolutely amazing. No more farming Nightfallen rep to advance the story when you could have Renown make it easier on alts. No completely RNG Legiondaries when you could just craft them instead, maybe even with stuff gained from the Withered scenario for all I know.

    It really just makes me hope the next expansion takes place back on Azeroth. I will never stop saying that leaving Azeroth is a bad idea for an expansion. It was a bad idea when players claimed they wanted a full Argus expansion, and it was a bad idea when players said they were excited for a full Shadowlands expansion.
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  11. #7711
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    By your logic leaving Azeroth when we did for Outland is a bad idea. Its like you have a limited vision in terms of expansion ideas.
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  12. #7712
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    By your logic leaving Azeroth when we did for Outland is a bad idea. Its like you have a limited vision in terms of expansion ideas.
    The problem isnt creativity. If you want you could make a full-blown expansion out of anything. You could make an expansion set entirely in a continent sized version of Suramar for instance, or an expansion set entirely on Argus as mentioned.
    The issue is that the further you go away from Azeroth the harder it becomes to become engaged with the story being told. This is a problem especially in the Shadowlands since we have never really even heard of it beyond it existing before the expansion began. All zones ahve to come with their own internal justification as opposed to Kul Tiras or Zandalar just existing as they are. Maldraxxus needs to explain not just why it looks this way, but why it is there and what purpose it serves. Vol'dun meanwhile just had to briefly explain why a desert is next to a swampo, but otherwise we could just accept it as a desert we know from real life.
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  13. #7713
    The Outlands always had a connection to Azeroth that was well-established in Warcraft lore. Shadowlands don't have that, everything was basically build up in Shadowlands. Just because they write the story in Shadowlands like it's always been there and always been part of Azeroth, that isn't the truth for the players. With the portal, Swamps of Sorrow, Alleria and Turalyon missing etc., Outlands never felt "not-Warcraft-like" - Shadowlands does though. If you remove all the household names from Shadowlands, it could be a completely different franchise because it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Azeroth that we know.
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  14. #7714
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem isnt creativity. If you want you could make a full-blown expansion out of anything. You could make an expansion set entirely in a continent sized version of Suramar for instance, or an expansion set entirely on Argus as mentioned.
    The issue is that the further you go away from Azeroth the harder it becomes to become engaged with the story being told. This is a problem especially in the Shadowlands since we have never really even heard of it beyond it existing before the expansion began. All zones ahve to come with their own internal justification as opposed to Kul Tiras or Zandalar just existing as they are. Maldraxxus needs to explain not just why it looks this way, but why it is there and what purpose it serves. Vol'dun meanwhile just had to briefly explain why a desert is next to a swampo, but otherwise we could just accept it as a desert we know from real life.
    This seems more like a you problem. Yeah it wasn't heard of before but thats not that different to how people learn things in the real world. I don't believe leaving Azeroth is a bad expansion idea(In the sense to travel to X place for narrative reasons). Leaving Azeroth permanently though.. thats another story.
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  15. #7715
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    This seems more like a you problem. Yeah it wasn't heard of before but thats not that different to how people learn things in the real world. I don't believe leaving Azeroth is a bad expansion idea(In the sense to travel to X place for narrative reasons). Leaving Azeroth permanently though.. thats another story.
    It's a layer of disconnect between you and WoW.
    Sure, it isn't massive in the grand scheme, but over time it really does add up to where you start to forget how this is all tied back to WoW anyways.
    Your character is pretty much the only constant grounding the player is given to remind the story is still WoW related, otherwise it seems the game is trying it's hardest to have anything relate as little as possible to Azeroth.

    To out it in simpler terms. Do you feel that the story in Shadowlands is relevant to stuff on Azeroth? Because if not then why should we care? The story might be crap, but so long as it is still WoW then that is at least some reason to stay engaged, without it we might as well be playing something entirely different.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  16. #7716
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    This might seem like a weird niggle to bring up at such a random time, but does anyone ever wonder why this expansion doesnt have a bigger Death Knight presence?
    I mean, the expansion literally began with aiding the Ebon Blade attacking the Maw on behest of Bolvar, who I might add is the face of the expansion. The expansion seems absolutely drenched in stuff fitting for Death Knights, and yet the faction itself seems weirdly absent from everything. Some of them patrol Oribos and serve as the Quartermaster in Korthia, but you would think they would be utilized more frequently.
    This is likely the last time they are going to be relevant, and yet nothing of note seems to happen regarding them. The discussion on their state of being and their purpose seems entirely absent from what should be their crowning moment of glory.

    I guess Blizzard wanted to give the "original" characters more of a presence, not to mention DKs already being central to WotLK, but it still feels very weak.
    They could always of course have a bigger presence in the later patches, but for an expansion that is likely to feature Arthas at some point relegating Death Knights to C-list side-characters feels like a waste.

    At least we have gotten some nice Death Knight fitting plate armor from SoD, and will hopefully get a similarly good one once Class Armors return, but compared to Legion where you really felt important playing a DH you would swear Blizzard forgot Death Knights are a playable class.
    As someone who mains Death Knight I feel this. It feels like we're afterthoughts. Look at great variety of class specific customization Demon Hunters got and the special abilities (gliding and spectral sight) they have and then look back at Death Knights who aren't nearly as special and they're also a hero class. I had hopes that my favorite class would at least have more involvement and development during the death expansion. Also ouch on the last time Death Knights are going to be relevant. That hurts because it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    You're totally right. It just seems odd that Bolvar has been put on the bench just for Thrall and Jaina to be the main protagonists again. Four or five times the charm I guess?

    I think something that would be really cool and unexpected would be that Zovaal still has control over Bolvar and the Death Knights and starts using this control in 9.2. So every Death Knight around that has been an ally becomes an enemy, causing havoc on Azeroth, in Oribos and the Shadowlands (Domination magic or whatever). So our goal is to free Bolvar and the Death Knights - and in the end Anduin - from Zovaal's control and we're achieving this with the help of Arthas, who (ba dum ts) already freed himself from Zovaal back during his days and know how to do it.
    Yeah, why is Bolvar the face of this expansion when he as next to no involvement in the story? He's barely there. The most I've seen of him is in Korthia and Oribos. I'd say he deserves better but he lost to Sylvanas which lead to Shadowlands and a zombie apocaclypse currently happening on Azeroth.

    The scenario you presented is interesting to me, but I question how that would effect player Death Knights? I don't want to kill my Death Knight comrades.
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  17. #7717
    It's always funny when DKs complain about being "an afterthought" when they get a nice handjob from Blizzard pretty much every other expansion.

    Arguably, DKs have more relevance in SL than DHs had in Legion lmao, and even in Legion, DKs had like a way way better Order Hall campaign.

    All the other classes aren't even worth mentioning.

  18. #7718
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    It's always funny when DKs complain about being "an afterthought" when they get a nice handjob from Blizzard pretty much every other expansion.

    Arguably, DKs have more relevance in SL than DHs had in Legion lmao, and even in Legion, DKs had like a way way better Order Hall campaign.

    All the other classes aren't even worth mentioning.
    More relevance for DK's in SL, while DH's got their class in Legon with starting campaign, were giving quests, were Dungeon bosses and Illidan was following us everywhere m'kay.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  19. #7719
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    This might seem like a weird niggle to bring up at such a random time, but does anyone ever wonder why this expansion doesnt have a bigger Death Knight presence?
    I mean, the expansion literally began with aiding the Ebon Blade attacking the Maw on behest of Bolvar, who I might add is the face of the expansion. The expansion seems absolutely drenched in stuff fitting for Death Knights, and yet the faction itself seems weirdly absent from everything. Some of them patrol Oribos and serve as the Quartermaster in Korthia, but you would think they would be utilized more frequently.
    This is likely the last time they are going to be relevant, and yet nothing of note seems to happen regarding them. The discussion on their state of being and their purpose seems entirely absent from what should be their crowning moment of glory.

    I guess Blizzard wanted to give the "original" characters more of a presence, not to mention DKs already being central to WotLK, but it still feels very weak.
    They could always of course have a bigger presence in the later patches, but for an expansion that is likely to feature Arthas at some point relegating Death Knights to C-list side-characters feels like a waste.

    At least we have gotten some nice Death Knight fitting plate armor from SoD, and will hopefully get a similarly good one once Class Armors return, but compared to Legion where you really felt important playing a DH you would swear Blizzard forgot Death Knights are a playable class.
    If I had to guess I would say they originally planned more for them, more for Torghast's story etc. But development forced them early to cut corners, even for the initial release. I mean Thrall, Baine, Jaina and Anduin barely play a role as well, despite being the core characters together with Bolvar. Even all of them together barely (if at all) have the presence of an anchor character like Kadghar in previous expansions. And it's not like this presence is replaced by others in the covenants, they are as underdeveloped as they can as well, certainly in regards to everything past leveling.
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  20. #7720
    Kick, stink, shake, and moan have been removed.
    Though it's disheartening to see any get removed I'm honestly surprised flirt hasn't been cut yet.
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