Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

I am just kinda excited to see all the Cut & Run peoples' faces and reactions when they realize we have a unsatisfactorily conclusion to this expansion and also the next expansion is another cosmic realm.

Well a satisfying conclusion is all but impossible I would reckon. Blizzard has quite simply not made Zovaal interesting enough to make his defeat satisfying, and since the threat of "death" is almost solely linked to him it cannot really bank on the faction as a whole being defeated to be interesting like it was for Legion.

The only way I can see SL having a satisfying Ned is if Blizzard substitutes Zovall for someone else to carry the big bad mantle. Anduin is there at least, and infinitely more interesting, but that is just one, and also essentially a puppet.
Maybe if Arthas returned in style, but I cannot imagine Blizzard could balance an entire patch on him without fucking up something.

[Makabreska]

The only way I can see SL having a satisfying Ned is if Blizzard substitutes Zovall for someone else to carry the big bad mantle. Anduin is there at least, and infinitely more interesting, but that is just one, and also essentially a puppet.
Maybe if Arthas returned in style, but I cannot imagine Blizzard could balance an entire patch on him without fucking up something.

It is hardly a satisfying ending when you do a villain fake-out and bring the real one swooping down at last moment.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well a satisfying conclusion is all but impossible I would reckon. Blizzard has quite simply not made Zovaal interesting enough to make his defeat satisfying, and since the threat of "death" is almost solely linked to him it cannot really bank on the faction as a whole being defeated to be interesting like it was for Legion.

The only way I can see SL having a satisfying Ned is if Blizzard substitutes Zovall for someone else to carry the big bad mantle. Anduin is there at least, and infinitely more interesting, but that is just one, and also essentially a puppet.
Maybe if Arthas returned in style, but I cannot imagine Blizzard could balance an entire patch on him without fucking up something.

Well I mean if you keep downplaying Zovaal of course its not gonna be satisfying.

[Sondrelk]

Well I mean if you keep downplaying Zovaal of course its not gonna be satisfying.

The time to organically make players really invested in Zovaal was at least a good 2 patches ago, and yet Blizzard spent all that time on not really showing us much of anything with him for no good discernible reason. We are left with a character whose most interesting traits currently is his design and whatever lore characters he has working for him.

I mean honestly, what could Blizzard reveal about Zovaal in 9.2 that would make him an interesting character that players care to defeat like they wanted to defeat Sylvanas?

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

The time to organically make players really invested in Zovaal was at least a good 2 patches ago, and yet Blizzard spent all that time on not really showing us much of anything with him for no good discernible reason. We are left with a character whose most interesting traits currently is his design and whatever lore characters he has working for him.

I mean honestly, what could Blizzard reveal about Zovaal in 9.2 that would make him an interesting character that players care to defeat like they wanted to defeat Sylvanas?

And even the design would need about a thousand " " around that interesting. He looks so painfully generic and his upgrade at the end of the raid just made him look like one of the thousands of Maw mooks we've killed since the expansion started. I know that Blizzard hasn't really done much with there villains past "Rawr destroy" but even I'm baffled how hard they've dropped the ball on Zovaal.

[Raetary]

They should've given the Jailer a twirled moustache.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

They should've given the Jailer a twirled moustache.

Would unironically be an improvement. Silly is better than generic.

[Sondrelk]

Would unironically be an improvement. Silly is better than generic.

Dub him into Spanish as well, let him claw his way into fame the same way the failed Devil May Cry reboot did.

- - - Updated - - -

Damn, now I kinda want to see that dubbed version. "La Carcelera de los condenados". It would be hilarious.

[Nyel]

I think the Sepulcher hides the secrets on how an entity of death can enter the world of the living (or interact with the world of the living). The sepulcher won't be the (sole) raid scenario, that's why too unspecific. I mean, what would be our perception of this place? We know nothing about it and heard nothing about it before. It would be completely anticlimactic to have the final raid there. That's why I think we're still headed back to Azeroth - but the Jailer will be there before we are.

If we don't get back to Azeroth, the entire expansion was a storytelling joke as the BIGGEST THREAT EVER FOR AZEROTH AND LIFE - that's been suggested throughout the entire expansion - didn't even make it to our world, aka the place that matters for us.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I think the Sepulcher hides the secrets on how an entity of death can enter the world of the living (or interact with the world of the living). The sepulcher won't be the (sole) raid scenario, that's why too unspecific. I mean, what would be our perception of this place? We know nothing about it and heard nothing about it before. It would be completely anticlimactic to have the final raid there. That's why I think we're still headed back to Azeroth - but the Jailer will be there before we are.

If we don't get back to Azeroth, the entire expansion was a storytelling joke as the BIGGEST THREAT EVER FOR AZEROTH AND LIFE - that's been suggested throughout the entire expansion - didn't even make it to our world, aka the place that matters for us.

Didn't they already confirm Draka left in her cinematic with the Legion? I might be misremembering but I thought that was the case.

[Nyel]

Didn't they already confirm Draka left in her cinematic with the Legion? I might be misremembering but I thought that was the case.

I don't really know and my theory isn't based on actual lore in game, it's just what I think about how the conclusion of this expansion would come to a satisfying ending.

[Sondrelk]

I think the Sepulcher hides the secrets on how an entity of death can enter the world of the living (or interact with the world of the living). The sepulcher won't be the (sole) raid scenario, that's why too unspecific. I mean, what would be our perception of this place? We know nothing about it and heard nothing about it before. It would be completely anticlimactic to have the final raid there. That's why I think we're still headed back to Azeroth - but the Jailer will be there before we are.

If we don't get back to Azeroth, the entire expansion was a storytelling joke as the BIGGEST THREAT EVER FOR AZEROTH AND LIFE - that's been suggested throughout the entire expansion - didn't even make it to our world, aka the place that matters for us.

Would that shock you? This entire expansion has been one long extended bit of filler plot. Our reason for going to the Shadowlands are flimsy at best. We don't even come here to save all of creation, we literally come here to save Anduin and Pals, as well as dragging Sylvanas back to the denizens of Azeroth can take it in turns to smack her across the face.

Now this plot isnt entirely without merit, the idea that we think we are doing something simple and it ends up being more complicated than we could ever imagine is a storytelling device that can work brilliantly. But Blizzard never seemed to figure that we need a reason to care beyond the baseline level of "kill the evil dude".
Shadowlands has essentially spent a full 2 major patches now mostly dragging its feet on why we should care to defeat Zovaal. The best the game can offer at this point is that we should defeat him because he is evil, not because he has really done anything do us or Azeroth personally to deserve it.

[Raetary]

Didn't they already confirm Draka left in her cinematic with the Legion? I might be misremembering but I thought that was the case.

Yes, she was out and about spying on legion forces.

The jailers mawsworn were also flying around Azeroth during the pre patch.

[Sondrelk]

I don't really know and my theory isn't based on actual lore in game, it's just what I think about how the conclusion of this expansion would come to a satisfying ending.

I can't imagine the secret would be how to have characters leave the Shadowlands. Doing so sems piss easy for those with an above average standing in the major factions of the Shadowlands. Kyrians obviously do it constantly, and are indeed magically transformed to be able to do so without any issue whatsoever, not to mention Ardenweald literally has that giant portal to the living world right there.

I imagine the big secret the Jailer will find is on how to extend his influence beyond the Shadowlands. His power comes from the Shadowlands, and we are given no indication he can influence anything else.
If I was writing at least I would make the big secret how to use the Shadowlands itself on other realms. Essentially how to break the fabricated stalemate between all teh cosmic forces.

[Nyel]

I can't imagine the secret would be how to have characters leave the Shadowlands. Doing so sems piss easy for those with an above average standing in the major factions of the Shadowlands. Kyrians obviously do it constantly, and are indeed magically transformed to be able to do so without any issue whatsoever, not to mention Ardenweald literally has that giant portal to the living world right there.

I imagine the big secret the Jailer will find is on how to extend his influence beyond the Shadowlands. His power comes from the Shadowlands, and we are given no indication he can influence anything else.
If I was writing at least I would make the big secret how to use the Shadowlands itself on other realms. Essentially how to break the fabricated stalemate between all teh cosmic forces.

Yeah, that's more of what I tried to say. The ability to shape the world of the living as they can shape the world of the dead. But again, we somehow must connect all of this to Azeroth. If we don't, this expansion was more story filler than WoD which actually gave us Gul'dan and Legion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Would that shock you? This entire expansion has been one long extended bit of filler plot. Our reason for going to the Shadowlands are flimsy at best. We don't even come here to save all of creation, we literally come here to save Anduin and Pals, as well as dragging Sylvanas back to the denizens of Azeroth can take it in turns to smack her across the face.

Death is broken, it isn't just affecting Azeroth and thats an obvious thing that you aren't putting out. Its not filler plot or any stupid reasoning like that at all. The Shadowlands is where the problem is and well the rift above Icecrown is kinda a big problem as in theory anything from the Maw can get to Azeroth(Well Most of everything). Anduin and co are kidnapped because they defied Sylvanas. And considering how we'd go into the "Bad place" to rescue them. And no we aren't really going after Sylvanas to bring her back. People want her dead not "Bring her back."

Now this plot isnt entirely without merit, the idea that we think we are doing something simple and it ends up being more complicated than we could ever imagine is a storytelling device that can work brilliantly. But Blizzard never seemed to figure that we need a reason to care beyond the baseline level of "kill the evil dude".
Shadowlands has essentially spent a full 2 major patches now mostly dragging its feet on why we should care to defeat Zovaal. The best the game can offer at this point is that we should defeat him because he is evil, not because he has really done anything do us or Azeroth personally to deserve it.

Are you just ignoring the game to make your complaint sound logical? Cause you are pretty much ignoring Sylvanas's motivations and well what Zovaal wants. He's behind the BFA war and all those that were killed are now in the Maw which isn't supposed to happen. All of this isn't flimsy reasons to go to the Shadowlands. Zovaal even tells his plan "Death comes for the soul of your world." We know what that means. He wants Azeroth's soul for some plan to basically enslave reality to his will(He did create the Lich King so goal is the same).

You don't just ignore a threatening thing like that and well we still had to rescue Thrall, Anduin, Jaina and Baine. There's more then enough reason to go to the Shadowlands. Even after you rescue our azerothian leaders we still have to be there because well leaving the Shadowlands would just leave us vulnerable to the Maw's forces. Sure we could ignore it but thats like ignoring the Burning Legion invasion via the tomb of Sargeras and we didn't ignore that. Zovaal may be evil(And thats a reason to go after him but even Bolvar points out he is the one who is the master of the Helm of Domination.

It all leads to Zovaal, the game even tells you why. He misleads Sylvanas about saving the Shadowlands but that was a lie. There's no dragging of feet. Just because we aren't on Azeroth doesn't mean the threat to it is fake. This idea that we have to be on Azeroth for a threat to her(the planet and world soul) be relevant or "important."

[Nyel]

Death is broken...

This has - to this day - zero tangible influence on Azeroth. Death is broken as of now is just a phrase they've given us. It basically has no meaning at all at this point and only gets one when we get a direct connection to Azeroth which we as players can experience. As long as we don't go back to Azeroth, everything of the expansion's story has taken place elsewhere and therefore was completely disconnected from the place we tried to save.

[therumblings]

Haven't seen anyone mention this but apparently Blizzard stealth removed a bunch of jokes/flirts on the PTR assuming this post on reddit is accurate.

https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...okes_from_the/

[Nyel]

Haven't seen anyone mention this but apparently Blizzard stealth removed a bunch of jokes/flirts on the PTR assuming this post on reddit is accurate.

https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...okes_from_the/

At this point, this is just sad. Most of them have been completely harmless and indeed funny puns and jokes.

"Nice pants. What's the drop rate?" is an epic line.

[Sondrelk]

Are you just ignoring the game to make your complaint sound logical? Cause you are pretty much ignoring Sylvanas's motivations and well what Zovaal wants. He's behind the BFA war and all those that were killed are now in the Maw which isn't supposed to happen. All of this isn't flimsy reasons to go to the Shadowlands. Zovaal even tells his plan "Death comes for the soul of your world." We know what that means. He wants Azeroth's soul for some plan to basically enslave reality to his will(He did create the Lich King so goal is the same).

That is exactly my point, pretty much all the reasons to care for him as a character has to do with what other, more interesting and charismatic characters he is latched to.
His "interesting" backstory is basically just how he was responsible for Ner'zhul and Arthas.
His characterization in SL proper is pretty much all carried by Sylvanas being the person we do want to defeat.
Going forward I care more about rescuing Anduin than I care about defeating Zovaal.

Zovaal is a blank slate as a character, existing primarily as a nebulous evil villain for more interesting characters to latch onto. He could be replaced by a disease that makes people evil and his impact on the story would be the same, and possibly even made better.