Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

This a thousand times please.

Its really not complicated.

[Varodoc]

Such boring takes in this thread, why are people here so scared to think outside the box?

[draugril]

Such boring takes in this thread, why are people here so scared to think outside the box?

The box is comfortable. And modern Blizzard doesn't have the best track record with thinking outside of it.

[Varodoc]

The box is comfortable. And modern Blizzard doesn't have the best track record with thinking outside of it.

To be honest it's not even such a wild take, there have been hints at Void vs. Death since the Three Sisters comic, where the Void Lords referred to the Janitor as the "Enemy of all". This is the culmination of at least one stage of that conflict.

They can take the opportunity to also feature some of the monsters that will appear in the inevitable Void expansion. I for one would be more interested in Shadowlands if there was another villainous faction besides the Janitor and his grunts.

[Nyel]

To be honest it's not even such a wild take, there have been hints at Void vs. Death since the Three Sisters comic, where the Void Lords referred to the Janitor as the "Enemy of all". This is the culmination of at least one stage of that conflict.

They can take the opportunity to also feature some of the monsters that will appear in the inevitable Void expansion. I for one would be more interested in Shadowlands if there was another villainous faction besides the Janitor and his grunts.

Bringing the Void into play makes the Shadowlands even more pointless. They would basically trash everything they tried to build up in this expansion when all of a sudden a new omega threat is appearing. Not that they have massively underdeveloped the Shadowlands anyway, but with interaction of Light/Void everything we learned about the Eternal Ones, the afterlive etc. would have been completely meaningless as it would be denigrated to be the location the expansion took place, but eventually never mattered at all. The Shadowlands would just act as an interlude to the Void stuff. Do you think they would actually do this? I mean if that happens, this entire expansion was WoD 2.0 from start to finish aka filler plot.

[Varodoc]

Bringing the Void into play makes the Shadowlands even more pointless. They would basically trash everything they tried to build up in this expansion when all of a sudden a new omega threat is appearing. Not that they have massively underdeveloped the Shadowlands anyway, but with interaction of Light/Void everything we learned about the Eternal Ones, the afterlive etc. would have been completely meaningless as it would be denigrated to be the location the expansion took place, but eventually never mattered at all. The Shadowlands would just act as an interlude to the Void stuff. Do you think they would actually do this? I mean if that happens, this entire expansion was WoD 2.0 from start to finish aka filler plot.

But Shadowlands IS pointless.

That's why the plot has now moved beyond the Shadowlands. To the vault of the First Ones, where the Janitor seeks to unmake reality (and thus the conflict now involves all forces at play in Reality).

To be honest Shadowlands could have ended at 9.1 and it would have been perfectly fine from a story standpoint. No one cares about the Shadowlands now, there's nothing of value left for the Janitor there.

[Nyel]

But Shadowlands IS pointless.

I agree, this entire expansion is pointless from a lore perspective. But if they do 9.2 right and make it a bombastic finale with the Jailer and solely focus on the forces of the Shadowlands (+Azeroth), they can turn this around. If they don't do this, everybody will remember this expansion as a worse version of WoD with slightly more content.

And I agree that they could have ended this expansion with 9.1 already. The Shadowlands, at least the parts we know, are said and done at this point. That's why we speculate that the next patch doesn't (solely) take place there. There's no more stories to be told in the Shadowlands. But that doesn't mean this expansion has been 100% pointless. As I said, if 9.2 gives us the Jailer - Azeroth connection, still 2/3 of this expansion would have been pointless, but the remaining 1/3 would matter. And that's - for me - good enough to give this entire mess a conclusion.

[Three Faced Goddess]

What if the Jailor manages to unmake reality or begin the process of it? What if, in order to save reality after it's been damaged, it has to be reset? We could begin anew on Azeroth where, while characters and events are similar, events happen differently. For example, there's still a Lich King but in this version someone else dons the helm and wields Frostmourne? What if Lor'themar dies during the Scourging of Quel'thalas instead of Sylvanas and becomes a banshee queen esque character? It's a chance to undo all the stupid inflicted on the original Warcraft I-III as it's an alternate reality. Or maybe the Azeroth we know is actually alternate Azeroth. Honestly, I'm just spinning ideas. No one take me seriously.

[Hitei]

Bringing the Void into play makes the Shadowlands even more pointless. They would basically trash everything they tried to build up in this expansion when all of a sudden a new omega threat is appearing. Not that they have massively underdeveloped the Shadowlands anyway, but with interaction of Light/Void everything we learned about the Eternal Ones, the afterlive etc. would have been completely meaningless as it would be denigrated to be the location the expansion took place, but eventually never mattered at all.

That is how every expansion works. Outland was completely pointless beyond being the initial staging point for the Legion's invasion, which is why the last tier takes place in Quel'thalas, because Outland itself didn't matter at all. Pandaria didn't matter beyond the fact that the opposing faction was there, so when Garrosh's forces leave everyone follows back to Orgrimmar. Northrend itself doesn't matter at all, just that the scourge happened to be based there, the expansion only takes place solely in Northrend because the terrible writing had Arthas doing fuck all and 99% of the scourge forces just hanging out in Northrend. If Arthas had actually bothered to go attack someplace the 3.3 raid could have easily been anywhere else because nothing but him and the other top end people in the scourge mattered by that point.

[shoc]

What if the Jailor manages to unmake reality or begin the process of it? What if, in order to save reality after it's been damaged, it has to be reset? We could begin anew on Azeroth where, while characters and events are similar, events happen differently. For example, there's still a Lich King but in this version someone else dons the helm and wields Frostmourne? What if Lor'themar dies during the Scourging of Quel'thalas instead of Sylvanas and becomes a banshee queen esque character? It's a chance to undo all the stupid inflicted on the original Warcraft I-III as it's an alternate reality. Or maybe the Azeroth we know is actually alternate Azeroth. Honestly, I'm just spinning ideas. No one take me seriously.

I am thinking, the big brand heroes of Azeroth are going to be the next Pantheon

Sylvanas will take the Jailer's orb, becoming the new Goddess of Death.
Illidan will slay Sargeras and take his power, becoming the God of Disorder.
Tyrande becomes the permanent avatar of Elune, becoming the Goddess of Life.
Alleria masters the Void Naaru inside of her, becoming the Goddess of Shadow.
Turalyon gets juiced up by another Prime Naaru, becoming the God of Light.
Jaina just keeps getting buffed somehow and becomes the Goddess of Order.

And in classic Blizzard writing they will all hold hands, bringing peace to the universe. The end.

[Varodoc]

I am thinking, the big brand heroes of Azeroth are going to be the next Pantheon

Sylvanas will take the Jailer's orb, becoming the new Goddess of Death.
Illidan will slay Sargeras and take his power, becoming the God of Disorder.
Tyrande becomes the permanent avatar of Elune, becoming the Goddess of Life.
Alleria masters the Void Naaru inside of her, becoming the Goddess of Shadow.
Turalyon gets juiced up by another Prime Naaru, becoming the God of Light.
Jaina just keeps getting buffed somehow and becomes the Goddess of Order.

And in classic Blizzard writing they will all hold hands, bringing peace to the universe. The end.

The only one that makes sense is Alleria, and that's because she already has the power of a God, the power of the Dark Naaru (the Naaru are deities and are the Cosmic counterpart of the Old GODS). So Alleria unlike these cretins is already a Demi-God.

I could see her consuming a Void Lord in the future.

That being said, all these other people are mere mortals, they don't belong in any Pantheon.

[TheFirstOnes]

Finally, I am back logged onto the computer. Forgot my username for some reason lol.

But yeah, just to rundown on the shit I think: The recent changes in WoW blow, and they shouldn't need to exist.

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The only one that makes sense is Alleria, and that's because she already has the power of a God, the power of the Dark Naaru (the Naaru are deities and are the Cosmic counterpart of the Old GODS). So Alleria unlike these cretins is already a Demi-God.

I could see her consuming a Void Lord in the future.

That being said, all these other people are mere mortals, they don't belong in any Pantheon.

The Naaru suck ass, and they aren't really that comparable to the Old Gods unless you want to MAYBE compare them in cosmic hierarchy. But I do agree that none of these people should be in a Pantheon.

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Also, here's an idea people, how about you let SL stay as the Life/Death (Heavily Death focused) expansion? Maybe give us a Life Pantheon if we need to, but please just keep the focus on Death and the First Ones. Please.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Old Gods are as much gods as lightning strikes can be attributed to zeus having eaten something wrong. And frankly naaru seem considerably weaker yet again, including the effing prime naaru.
None of the Azeroth schmocks should become central figures in the cosmology.

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Also, here's an idea people, how about you let SL stay as the Life/Death (Heavily Death focused) expansion? Maybe give us a Life Pantheon if we need to, but please just keep the focus on Death and the First Ones. Please.

I mean technically the first ones are already way beyond the scope of death&life, they were the founding figures of the whole universe and the figures behind the cosmic forces, the closest to actual gods as we know right now.

[TheFirstOnes]

Old Gods are as much gods as lightning strikes can be attributed to zeus having eaten something wrong. And frankly naaru seem considerably weaker yet again, including the effing prime naaru.
None of the Azeroth schmocks should become central figures in the cosmology.

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I mean technically the first ones are already way beyond the scope of death&life, they were the founding figures of the whole universe and the figures behind the cosmic forces, the closest to actual gods as we know right now.

Well, we don't know if they did make the Cosmic Forces, or if they just simply balanced them which then made the Cosmos. But yeah, they are beyond that scope. The IDEA however is that us meeting the First Ones' Sepulcher and whatnot is basically us finally stepping into the realms of the Cosmos, and realizing that even our "gods" have a power that rules over them.

[Varodoc]

Old Gods are as much gods as lightning strikes can be attributed to zeus having eaten something wrong. And frankly naaru seem considerably weaker yet again, including the effing prime naaru.
None of the Azeroth schmocks should become central figures in the cosmology.

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I mean technically the first ones are already way beyond the scope of death&life, they were the founding figures of the whole universe and the figures behind the cosmic forces, the closest to actual gods as we know right now.

False.

Both the Old Gods, as the name implies, and the Naaru are divine in nature. And they both have godly powers. The Old Gods are capable of corrupting even the Dragon Aspects and can corrupt entire worlds and Titan souls. The Naaru are capable of laying waste to entire cities in one swift strike (see the Dark Naaru in AU Draenor).

The Old Gods and Naaru are already cemented in the Warcraft cosmology, see the Chronicles.

Are we really trying to argue that the Old G O D S aren't considered Gods? Come now

[TheFirstOnes]

The only one that makes sense is Alleria, and that's because she already has the power of a God, the power of the Dark Naaru (the Naaru are deities and are the Cosmic counterpart of the Old GODS). So Alleria unlike these cretins is already a Demi-God.

I could see her consuming a Void Lord in the future.

That being said, all these other people are mere mortals, they don't belong in any Pantheon.

Yeah, let her consume a fucking VOID LORD! A fully powered Void Lord. Suuuurrreeee

That would be like someone consuming the power of Yog-Sothoth. No.

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False.

Both the Old Gods, as the name implies, and the Naaru are divine in nature. And they both have godly powers. The Old Gods are capable of corrupting even the Dragon Aspects and can corrupt entire worlds and Titan souls. The Naaru are capable of laying waste to entire cities in one swift strike (see the Dark Naaru in AU Draenor).

The Old Gods and Naaru are already cemented in the Warcraft cosmology, see the Chronicles.

Are we really trying to argue that the Old G O D S aren't considered Gods? Come now

The Old Gods are simply godly in that they once ruled Azeroth prior to the Titans arriving there, hence why the mortals on Azeroth gave them such a name. They themselves aren't really "gods". Hell, even the Naaru are more-so comparable to the old testament Angels, tbh.

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Other mortals simply call Old Gods "Dark Gods" cause of their insane void abilities and otherworldly looks. I don't even think you should consider the Eternal Ones, the Titans, or even the Void Lords as a true "divinity" tbh. The Outer Gods in H.P Lovecraft certainly aren't truly gods, but to the mortals, they display godlike powers and authority that give them such a title.

[Cosmic Janitor]

False.

Both the Old Gods, as the name implies, and the Naaru are divine in nature. And they both have godly powers. The Old Gods are capable of corrupting even the Dragon Aspects and can corrupt entire worlds and Titan souls. The Naaru are capable of laying waste to entire cities in one swift strike (see the Dark Naaru in AU Draenor).

The Old Gods and Naaru are already cemented in the Warcraft cosmology, see the Chronicles.

Are we really trying to argue that the Old G O D S aren't considered Gods? Come now

That's just your head canon mate, because it supports your Alleria worshipping. Also Chronicles, or more to the point that one picture, has already been lowered to the levels of titan fan fiction, since Blizzard can't stick to a canon to save their lives.

[TheFirstOnes]

I get all of this. What you say makes sense. But they can't even untangle the single Death-related storyline. How should they get the writing for a cosmic war with 4 or 5 of the major forces right? This sounds so incredibly bad already, I don't want them to even try at this point.

Maybe the next expansion really should be tabula rasa and named World of Warcraft: Awokenings, it would fit their current agenda.

What do you mean they can't untangle it? Bro, the basis of the plot is fully realized already, and we simply need to stop Zovaal at the Sepulcher within the realm of the First Ones. Simple.

[Varodoc]

That's just your head canon mate, because it supports your Alleria worshipping. Also Chronicles, or more to the point that one picture, has already been lowered to the levels of titan fan fiction, since Blizzard can't stick to a canon to save their lives.

Nope.

The Old Gods are Gods, as is their name, and thus so are the Naaru, as they are their Cosmic counterpart.

This is factually proven by the fact that both of these creatures are worshipped by many races across the cosmos. We see this in Azeroth (Twilight's Hammer Cult), we see this in Draenor (Arakkoa, Lightbound), we see this in Argus (Void Ethereals), etc.

You are trying to deny reality because you hate Alleria.

[TheFirstOnes]

Not 4 or 5, just the Light and Void would be enough.

It would be possible to feature 3 forces. Patch 7.3 of Legion indeed featured 3 forces: the Burning Legion (naturally), the Army of the Light, and the Void in Mac'aree.

A section of the final raid could feature a minion of the Light or the Void trying to stop the Janitor, that would be interesting to see (the creature could either get in our way or try to help us). Or conversely the forces of the Light could come to the Janitor's aid, since it was stated in a whisper that the Light made a bargain with Janitor (the "enemy of all" from the perspective of the Old God N'Zoth).

There is also a precedent of the final patch of an expansion featuring elements that appear in the following expansion (Iron Star in 5.3, Legion in 6.2), so personally it would make sense to feature the Lightbound in some way, since they'll obviously appear in 10.0. Perhaps what the Janitor is trying to do could serve as prelude for an invasion of the Lightbound in MU Azeroth. We also know that the Lightbound are trying to conquer the entire Cosmos, so it makes sense that they would get involved with the Cosmic shenanigans the Janitor is trying to do.

Of course, nothing since patch 8.0 is comparable to patch 7.3, which in my opinion is the best patch in this game's history (at least when it comes to the Lore and Story for certain), but they can try.

Also the next expansion will be Legion 2.0, at least from a hype perspective. So expect the Void Lords to be featured massively. The Void Lords have pretty much been the overarching villains of the franchise since Chronicles came out. As they are the begins responsible for Sargeras' descent into madness and the creation of the Old Gods.

What better time to feature the Void Lords than in the expansion after ShitLands?

Uhm, 7.3 gave us 4, not 3. We literally met the Pantheon of Order...

Anyways, I think Light and Shadow for ANDUIN is enough. Life and Death (Mostly Death) should stay the confines of SL. Hell, we haven't even seen the realms of Life yet, and I'm not even sure we will see that shit this expac, we may see it next expac tbh, which will piss a LOT of people off, but whatever, Blizzard loves to milk WoW so idc anymore. My personal hope is that it's forced into 9.2 so we don't have to go through that plotline anymore, but I've been wrong before.

As for Light and Shadow, my personal ideals is that the Light and Shadow plot is after SL, and we'll battle Sargeras at the Seat of the Pantheon and/or the Realm of Order in some mini raid.

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That's just your head canon mate, because it supports your Alleria worshipping. Also Chronicles, or more to the point that one picture, has already been lowered to the levels of titan fan fiction, since Blizzard can't stick to a canon to save their lives.

What does canon have to do with anything? The Old Gods have always been below the Titans outside of old lore being weird, and Krasus' shit theories of Sargeras' power in comparison to the Old Gods lol.

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Actually, with Shadowlands the Nathrezim/Death are responsible for Sargeras' descent into madness, not the void.

No. It was still the Void. All the Nathrezim did was hasten the process by showing Sargeras a power that literally opposed the Titan's will so much, that Sargeras assumed there was no way of stopping it, all of which would benefit Zovaal's plot of weakening the other Cosmic Pantheons from within.

To say the Nathrezim legit were responsible for Sargeras' descent would be dishonest. Sargeras is still afraid of the Void Lords and their shit. All the Nathrezim did was showcase the "threat".

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Reminder that the Void isn't evil either. They legit work as a force that consumes all things. Sargeras is just too much of a beta to realize that, cause the Dreadlords showed him the crazy stuff, like what the Void could do to a Titan world-soul.

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Arthas already redeemed himself, it is stated that he was the only thing keeping the Lich King from annihilating all of Azeroth. So basically if Arthas wasn't there inside the Lich King, he would have unleashed the Scourge to swarm the world like locusts.

Him coming back naturally would just be nostalgia bait, but really his story arc was already completed.

Even though Arthas will obviously come back (even though he shouldn't), I hope they'll still show the Light and/or the Void in some way. They should send their forces to wherever the Janitor went, since they can't afford Death to unmake reality. The Naaru and Void Lords' got to do something about the Janitor. Maybe Xal'atath could come into play somehow, now that she has a host body.

I find this funny, when you consider all of the LK's choices were Arthas'. So, no, he didn't redeem shit. If anything, Arthas simply held back the TRUE potential of the LK AKA Zovaal's power, which also explains why he was such a massive failure.

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Dude was much weaker than he was supposed to be.

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We are not getting 9.2 till late february/early march at the earliest.

I'm gonna say no on that earliest factor and assume 9.2 will be announced in November, and release in Mid February.