Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Paperfox]

If there is any conflict between profits and income vs game features and player experience, Blizz will always choose the former unless and until it impacts it. This is something every corporation has to do.

It's too bad people don't look at this from a customer perspective. They typically have 3 patches per expansion that add content to the game, if Blizz cuts from that then they are not delivering value for the customer's money.

My pet theory is that they banked on the goodwill of dedicated players to keep the lights on who would be happy with whatever Blizz throws to them, this frees Blizz up to focus on the whales and world first crowd to rake in the profits at the start of the expansion. Maybe with all the people leaving they'll realize that they need to make content for them too.

Que sera, sera.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If there is any conflict between profits and income vs game features and player experience, Blizz will always choose the former unless and until it impacts it. This is something every corporation has to do.

It's too bad people don't look at this from a customer perspective. They typically have 3 patches per expansion that add content to the game, if Blizz cuts from that then they are not delivering value for the customer's money.

My pet theory is that they banked on the goodwill of dedicated players to keep the lights on who would be happy with whatever Blizz throws to them, this frees Blizz up to focus on the whales and world first crowd to rake in the profits at the start of the expansion. Maybe with all the people leaving they'll realize that they need to make content for them too.

Que sera, sera.

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. I don't think the cynical take that Blizzard doesn't care about WoW.

[Lahis]

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. I don't think the cynical take that Blizzard doesn't care about WoW.

There are devs that care. ;But they are not the people who make the financial decisions like release dates.

[Raetary]

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. .

Which is irrelevant as only a handful of those individuals actually call the shots.
And those ones are not the actual devs.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

You guys do realize 10.0 is likely just Light and Shadow (With some Legion/Titan plots), yeah?

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

[Makabreska]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

I mean, she defo makes a villainous comeback along with Naaru and another inter planetary/dimensional xpac, but I would just prefer something more grounded now.

[Paperfox]

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. I don't think the cynical take that Blizzard doesn't care about WoW.

Things are different for people who work at a corporation, and others may not be familiar with it.

Annual Performance Reviews, Goals and Objectives
The CEO together with the Executive Team create a corporate vision, ie: they decide where they want the corporation to go in the next fiscal year so they can best fulfill their 5 Year Plan. This vision is broken down into a series of goals and objectives which is modified for each unit/division/region/department to meet. The heads of the units will break them down further so that every employee will get goals and objectives that support the corporate vision. If an employee doesn't meet them then their performance review(s) will not be pleasant.

You are correct the company is filled with individuals, their position in the company is what determines how much creative freedom they have.

There's a belief that if you do something you love, you'll never work a day in your life. The issue is that you'll pay to do something you love, so isn't it better to do something you're good at and get paid for it? If you are a writer then you've heard of the saying: "Inspiration is for amateurs". The devs still need to eat and pay rent, regardless of how much they love WoW.

[Ersula]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

While I love cosmic fantasy, I am expecting an expansion based on traditional RPG motifs. Perhaps a revamp of Azeroth that *isn't* focused on the faction war. Likely later turning into a Light/Void conflict. And since they refuse to leave the formula of "Which iconic warcraft character will be evil this time?" I'd point at Turalyon & Alleria. They melt a dude's brain in front of his children at the end of the latest novel. That & Alleria's obsession with the sunwell seems totally delusional given her void connection.

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I mean I have to question how people think after Blizz has failed spectacularly to get 9.1 and 9.2 out "on schedule" that they'll somehow magically have an entire expansion (that most everyone thinks will include a full game revamp) done "on schedule."

We've already been feeling the result of the company problems, it started over a year ago with the layoffs. Layoffs, Covid & Lawsuits: The plot of Shadowlands is extremely complicated & they've done a pisspoor job at clarifying anything & that's the result. But they're not going to let the release schedule be affected by that, because that affects investor statistics more than anything. This is why they usually plan some sort of filler "troll" raid tier, which has already been abandoned for shadowlands. I imagine the "Battle for Ardenweald" & all the Elune stuff was supposed to be a fully thematic tier with a raid & everything

One more Major patch first or second quarter of 2022, then a new expansion in third or fourth quarter 2022. Same as it ever was.

The time between 9.0 & 9.1 was notably 7+ months & had no .5 patches. The inclusion of a .5 patch should tell you the time between 9.1 & 9.2 is going to be even longer

[TheFirstOnes]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

Why do you not want another Cosmic story? We're kinda past the mere "grounded" plots. BFA tried, and everyone + their mother knew the expac was secretly an Old God expansion, hell even Blizzard dropped the facade by 8.1.5 lol.

I'm definitely not tired of the storyline, however. I simply want the storyline to be better. Zovaal could easily be WoW's best villain, but he's not. He's underdeveloped and it sucks. The Eternal Ones aren't developed enough either to feel powerful. They're supposed to be Titan level, but no one thinks this because of A. Some conflicting interviews (Which shouldn't be the case regardless), and B. The game not allowing the Eternal Ones to feel as powerful as they should be (They did the same thing with the Titans, sadly).

I think us meeting these Cosmic Pantheons after years of growing as the champion of Azeroth is cool, and I think us now reaching divine levels to where we're talking about the Architects/Creators of the Warcraft Cosmos and are going to their Sepulcher to save all the Cosmic Realms, the Balance of the Forces, etc is nice. I just wish it was done better. WoW has NEVER been good as writing a story such as this, and the only reason FFXIV is so good at it is due to them having 13+ games of RPG experience, while WoW only really has 1 good RPG-prior story-wise. WoW also puts most of its story in books, so lots of people end up being confused regardless, and it sucks.

Lots of people also don't like characters such as Sylvanas, and how they basically takeover the narrative, despite the fact that Zovaal's our main antagonist for SL. It's stupid. I don't care about the Azerothians, I wanna know more about the big bad. I don't like Sylvanas, I don't want to listen to her "master plan", I wanna see why Zovaal dislikes the Cosmic Balance designed by the First Ones, I wanna know why the First Ones balanced and likely crafted the primal Cosmic Powers, why did they make the Universe? Why did they decide that they wanted to do more with their forces which originally started their existences in strife? I want answers to all these crazy Cosmic questions, I wanna see the First Ones be as interesting as the Titans, I think we kinda deserve answers now lol. But no, SL ends up being very weird and still rather unexplored, because the narrative is so bent on shit like Sylvanas, Tyrande, and Anduin, that the actual good shit is overlapped and the Cosmic Beings feel rather ignored, or unexplored in their powers. So, when Zovaal controls Anduin as his vessel, the Archon feels fucking weak, and it doesn't feel justified, since she's supposed to be "Titan level". I know a drought is still going on, but they literally almost never explore this either.

I'm sick of us wanting to go back to the grounded storylines. That won't fix WoW's flawed narrative. WoW simply needs to not tell their fucking story in games, or hire writers that think the Cosmic Plots would be so much better if you throw in "grounded" mortal affairs in the middle of it all. It's dumb. Only worked in Legion, cause KJ and Archimonde were established badasses and they didn't feel like they overlapped the narrative with Sargeras. Doesn't work here, cause Anduin and Sylvanas have a much greater impact than the Jailer, rather than the other way around.

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WoW's story should be told in RPG's, or in an animated/live action series with multiple movies in the middle of it. Warcraft alone can make a whole ass cinematic universe, if it wanted to. I feel like the story would work so much more, then.

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While I love cosmic fantasy, I am expecting an expansion based on traditional RPG motifs. Perhaps a revamp of Azeroth that *isn't* focused on the faction war. Likely later turning into a Light/Void conflict. And since they refuse to leave the formula of "Which iconic warcraft character will be evil this time?" I'd point at Turalyon & Alleria. They melt a dude's brain in front of his children at the end of the latest novel. That & Alleria's obsession with the sunwell seems totally delusional given her void connection.

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We've already been feeling the result of the company problems, it started over a year ago with the layoffs. Layoffs, Covid & Lawsuits: The plot of Shadowlands is extremely complicated & they've done a pisspoor job at clarifying anything & that's the result. But they're not going to let the release schedule be affected by that, because that affects investor statistics more than anything. This is why they usually plan some sort of filler "troll" raid tier, which has already been abandoned for shadowlands. I imagine the "Battle for Ardenweald" & all the Elune stuff was supposed to be a fully thematic tier with a raid & everything

One more Major patch first or second quarter of 2022, then a new expansion in third or fourth quarter 2022. Same as it ever was.

The time between 9.0 & 9.1 was notably 7+ months & had no .5 patches. The inclusion of a .5 patch should tell you the time between 9.1 & 9.2 is going to be even longer

If you wanna argue 10.0 stuff, I seriously hope they don't force the Plane of Life as 10.0's plot. I just want the Life/Death plotline to end with SL. Seems fair. Then, you can explore Light and Shadow with 10.0, and even finish off the Sargeras plotline, and give us the Realm of Order as a mini hub or as part of a mini raid.

[Sondrelk]

Why do you not want another Cosmic story? We're kinda past the mere "grounded" plots. BFA tried, and everyone + their mother knew the expac was secretly an Old God expansion, hell even Blizzard dropped the facade by 8.1.5 lol.

Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

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Also, the idea that the story cannot go back to being about anything less than constant end of the world threats is absolute bull. The story has calmed down several times after what is supposed to be world-ending events. The main pitch of WoW was afterall always that you could go and see the day-to-day lives of the inhabitants of Azeroth after several cosmic and intergalactic wars.

BfA might have ended with cosmic bullshit, but that still doesnt remove the fact that the levelling zones all had very much grounded plots dealing with everything from roving pirates to supremacist desert snakes.
The game can absolutely scale down from cosmic threats, all it needs is to not dive straight back into it.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

I couldn't agree more. I know the game is heading towards more cosmic storylines in the long term (or short term), but I really enjoy grounded storylines more. Or at least a good proportion of it, like 80% more grounded and 20% more epic. Too much epicness kills any feeling of awe, anticipation or excitement for me, but that's just my opinion.

[Vasoka]

Lol still no news, literally pathetic.

[TheFirstOnes]

Lol still no news, literally pathetic.

Patience, young one.

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Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the idea that the story cannot go back to being about anything less than constant end of the world threats is absolute bull. The story has calmed down several times after what is supposed to be world-ending events. The main pitch of WoW was afterall always that you could go and see the day-to-day lives of the inhabitants of Azeroth after several cosmic and intergalactic wars.

BfA might have ended with cosmic bullshit, but that still doesnt remove the fact that the levelling zones all had very much grounded plots dealing with everything from roving pirates to supremacist desert snakes.
The game can absolutely scale down from cosmic threats, all it needs is to not dive straight back into it.

I am not gonna lie to you, though some may have found BFA interesting, I legit don't think many people remember the grounded plots of BFA, etc. MoP was good...but even that had Cosmic stuff too, hell all of WoW's pretty cosmic at the end of the day.

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Bro, the First Ones need to get their Cosmic Forces in check. Tf they doin?

[Nyel]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

Is there really anyone yearning for an expansion with Yrel as a villain / antagonist? She’s hardly relevant in the bigger picture (as most what came to fruition in WoD), so I have no idea why people think that John Doe would form any connection or interest in a storyline revolving around her.

[Sondrelk]

Patience, young one.

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I am not gonna lie to you, though some may have found BFA interesting, I legit don't think many people remember the grounded plots of BFA, etc. MoP was good...but even that had Cosmic stuff too, hell all of WoW's pretty cosmic at the end of the day.

Players can barely remember plots from this very expansion. Is the void incursion questline in Bastion really that much more memorable than the questline in Tiragarde that had you wrangle gryphons?

What people remember is large peaks. If you have a plotline that deals with cosmic forces constantly then who cares when the giant space lasers come out? It will be the same shit as always.
You need a good balance of the more mundane and grounded to really set the big epic stuff into perspective. Stick around watching the universe explode for ages and all you get is bored as the game slowly starts tripping over itself trying to one-up itself.

Shadowlands as a whole is pretty much the poster child for why you never awnt to start with cosmic plots as the baseline, because we have already seen the legions of undead minions, and grand edifices of eternal societies.
What is the game going to pull out of its hat at this stage to make the finale feel more epic than Sanctum of Domination did? An ever bigger impossibly large prison of infinite complexity? Two giants rifts between dimensions instead of just one?

There all kinds of different reasons you should go for a grounded plotline. Because even if you decide to go big with it later then at least it will feel bigger compared to plots like Shadowlands that start at a sprint from the moment go.

[Nyel]

Lol still no news, literally pathetic.

Mage Tower testing is about to start, I don’t know what kind of news you’d expect right now. At best 9.1.5 will launch in two weeks and we’re getting news shortly before that. If it contains the 9.2 reveal is yet to be seen though.

[Sondrelk]

Is there really anyone yearning for an expansion with Yrel as a villain / antagonist? She’s hardly relevant in the bigger picture (as most what came to fruition in WoD), so I have no idea why people think that John Doe would form any connection or interest in a storyline revolving around her.

I want to see her as a villain more so to see Lightforged Orcs, specifically a potential alt-Garrosh whose supremacist tendencies makes him far more lethal when he doesnt get held back by his self-esteem issues.

[TheFirstOnes]

Hey, quick question for everyone here. Do you guys think the First Ones made the Cosmic Forces, or do you guys think they came after the Cosmic Forces and simply balanced them? Or do you think that when the First Ones spawned, the Forces spawned with them, as if the Tool and the Architect are one?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the idea that the story cannot go back to being about anything less than constant end of the world threats is absolute bull. The story has calmed down several times after what is supposed to be world-ending events. The main pitch of WoW was afterall always that you could go and see the day-to-day lives of the inhabitants of Azeroth after several cosmic and intergalactic wars.

BfA might have ended with cosmic bullshit, but that still doesnt remove the fact that the levelling zones all had very much grounded plots dealing with everything from roving pirates to supremacist desert snakes.
The game can absolutely scale down from cosmic threats, all it needs is to not dive straight back into it.

Too much pirates is what made the zone not as well interesting(Tiragarde Sound). I'm not saying the zone is garbage but I wanted more then just pirates. At least Stormsong Valley had some Old God stuff going on. BFA ending with N'zoth isn't really bad but he's thematically old god so hard to do him for an entire era. The Nazjatar thing felt like it could of done a whole expansion but we didn't and I'm at peace with that. Still could of been interesting.

I'm mostly ok going back to grounded stuff but eventually you have to raise the bar. Even Vanilla wow had us fighting against an Old God. Unless something has changed, I do not think 10.0 is going to be grounded. Especially with whats being set up(Thats more speculation on my part).

Hey, quick question for everyone here. Do you guys think the First Ones made the Cosmic Forces, or do you guys think they came after the Cosmic Forces and simply balanced them? Or do you think that when the First Ones spawned, the Forces spawned with them, as if the Tool and the Architect are one?

I'm assuming they are basically the first entities that came about.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Hey, quick question for everyone here. Do you guys think the First Ones made the Cosmic Forces, or do you guys think they came after the Cosmic Forces and simply balanced them? Or do you think that when the First Ones spawned, the Forces spawned with them, as if the Tool and the Architect are one?

I am pretty sure the First Ones are just the builders of the Universe and its forces if anything. It could be that the forces just floated through the aether and were then molded by the First Ones on mission from the Architect or were hatched and preprogrammed by the Architect to do their mission akin to the Pantheon of Order (or so we're told).

Honestly, I hope that they do expand that whole stuff rather than going with the lazy "The First Ones" are the "Pantheon of Order".