Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Hey, quick question for everyone here. Do you guys think the First Ones made the Cosmic Forces, or do you guys think they came after the Cosmic Forces and simply balanced them? Or do you think that when the First Ones spawned, the Forces spawned with them, as if the Tool and the Architect are one?

Personally I think they just balanced them and indeed ordered them.
Things like Life and Death might have been in constant flux, constantly at risk of destroying eachother until the First Ones places them in opposing realms to balance them out.

The universe in WoW used to be far more chaotic and freeform until the first ones came along and partitioned parts of it into separate parts to make it easier to understand. With the regular universe being the grand prize for all the forces to attempt to claim in order to re-establish their former power.

[TheFirstOnes]

I think the Forces and the First Ones are one of the same. So with each force, came a Progenitor. The tool and the architect are one of the same. The First Ones then decided to come together and give form to their design, and used their tools to construct a framework. Seems fair enough.

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Personally I think they just balanced them and indeed ordered them.
Things like Life and Death might have been in constant flux, constantly at risk of destroying eachother until the First Ones places them in opposing realms to balance them out.

The universe in WoW used to be far more chaotic and freeform until the first ones came along and partitioned parts of it into separate parts to make it easier to understand. With the regular universe being the grand prize for all the forces to attempt to claim in order to re-establish their former power.

Even with the Framework, the Cosmos was still rather chaotic. The First Ones simply gave the forces structure and whatnot. I do think the Forces are still their tools, regardless. It's just prior to them coming together, their tools were against eachother till the First Ones decided "enough is enough". It is said that they are the clockmakers, and progenitor means ancestor/originator, meaning they are the ancestors/originators of the Cosmos, and the Forces + their balance are the reason the Cosmos exists. I think it's more than a mere "order" ideal, especially when you realize Order is but one of the 6 forces in the chart. Besides, they kinda already made a Pantheon that will ensure there is order in their Cosmos.

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As for the 7th power, the more I look into it, the more I think it's likely a leader First One we know nothing of, and that leader First One commanded the others to balance their forces and create the Cosmos, etc.

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6 First Ones that created the Cosmos, one that rules over the others. Reminder, the statue (That was said to be a known "liar" by the Korthian attendants) stated that the 6 convey what the 7th holds fast. And the other powers seem to be influenced by this 7th force, if you look at Al'firim's stuff + the Grimorie's statements/theories. This 7th power feels like a power of authority, tbh.

[Sondrelk]

Too much pirates is what made the zone not as well interesting(Tiragarde Sound). I'm not saying the zone is garbage but I wanted more then just pirates. At least Stormsong Valley had some Old God stuff going on. BFA ending with N'zoth isn't really bad but he's thematically old god so hard to do him for an entire era. The Nazjatar thing felt like it could of done a whole expansion but we didn't and I'm at peace with that. Still could of been interesting.

I'm mostly ok going back to grounded stuff but eventually you have to raise the bar. Even Vanilla wow had us fighting against an Old God. Unless something has changed, I do not think 10.0 is going to be grounded. Especially with whats being set up(Thats more speculation on my part).

It's not that you can't fight big, important enemies. It's that the enemies we fight currently are far more impactful than they used to be. Old God's in Vanilla is one thing since they were not clearly defined at that point, but more importantly the plots in Vanilla was far more freeform simply because it was more grounded.
Each plotline could have its own endgame with an impactful boss that nevertheless still allowed room for future stuff.

Take the final boss of Vanilla, Kel'thuzad. That plotline is the culmination of an absolute mountain of seemingly trivial questlines in the Plaguelands that nevertheless builds up the Scourge as a threat.

[TheFirstOnes]

And if that's true, then it is possible it works like God and his Divine Council, where the Divine Council rules over all things, with God being the top command in the Divine Council.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's not that you can't fight big, important enemies. It's that the enemies we fight currently are far more impactful than they used to be. Old God's in Vanilla is one thing since they were not clearly defined at that point, but more importantly the plots in Vanilla was far more freeform simply because it was more grounded.
Each plotline could have its own endgame with an impactful boss that nevertheless still allowed room for future stuff.

Take the final boss of Vanilla, Kel'thuzad. That plotline is the culmination of an absolute mountain of seemingly trivial questlines in the Plaguelands that nevertheless builds up the Scourge as a threat.

Old Gods may of not been defined but they were still bigger enemies then most and they may seem like minions now a days, I feel like if Blizz invested in them they could be more then one trick tentacles.

[Vasoka]

New build.

[TheFirstOnes]

Old Gods may of not been defined but they were still bigger enemies then most and they may seem like minions now a days, I feel like if Blizz invested in them they could be more then one trick tentacles.

I mean, they are just the Great Old Ones just copy-pasted into WoW. The Void Lords are basically the Outer Gods.

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The First Ones and Cosmic Powers spawn together >>> First Ones balance their forces >>> Cosmic Framework is made >>> Cosmic Realms and Cosmos as a whole is made >>> First Ones make cities, defenses, balancers, concepts, and Pantheons to help stabilize the Forces and Cosmos >>> Warcraft Universe does it’s stuff.

First Ones >>> WoW’s Outer Gods.

[Black Rider]

Still can't wrap my head around the fact that in 2021 there can be content drought in WoW.
Guys have so much resources and experience...

[Dracullus]

Nice, I didn't expected changes so late into PTR. Korthia one is nice, 5K token for mission table not really worth it (10k anima cost per token). Hopefully they will open Mage Tower later this week?

Also I read 9.1.5 preview again, "Completing a Covenant campaign on one character will allow alternate characters the ability to skip that same Covenant’s campaign, earning the Renown and a third Soulbind unlock immediately without needing to replay the full narrative arc."

So yeah many of us misread this, it's not campaign skip that mark it as completed + gives opportunity to buy set. You can just recruit remaining soulbinds at once, also I guess you will be able to earn 80 Renown without finishing 9.0/9.1 campaigns, but didn't tested it for obvious reasons. So want all recolors = must do campaign 4 times on each cov (just 9.0 of course).

Don't forget it works only if you logged on alt with completed campaign. If you didn't play alts before 9.1.5 and want "max out" your main, you will have to farm 120 more Renown (some of these will be given by campaign) and finish 3 campaigns to unlock soulbinds.

[Raetary]

Still can't wrap my head around the fact that in 2021 there can be content drought in WoW.
Guys have so much resources and experience...

Which is completely irrelevant when management is a complete disaster.

[Lahis]

Nice, I didn't expected changes so late into PTR

Are we late into the PTR though? Mage Tower hasn't been tested at all yet, and that is one of the key features of this patch.

[Hitei]

Still can't wrap my head around the fact that in 2021 there can be content drought in WoW.
Guys have so much resources and experience...

The richest, most experienced chef in the world is still gonna take a while to slow roast a piece of meat; there's only so much that throwing money and knowledge at a problem can do anything. There are a couple of issues involved:

First, there is never going to be a situation in which a developer is able to put out more content than a player is able to play, that's just simple math, it's always going to take longer to design, code, create art assets for, compile and test content than it is for a player to just launch the game and play it. You can pad out that difference a little with outright timegating (or with soft timegating, like the RNG and reset locks on raid gear); or rely on the player keeping themselves entertained with the same content over and over for extended periods of time (see: PvP). But that's about it, not enough content is a fundamental and inescapable feature of video game design.

Second, the slowdowns in production are often things that money and resources cannot really deal with. For instance, often in beta one of the slowdowns for content release is the backend implementation of systems. That is, the actual programming of something like torghast (as an example) takes a great deal of time, and is not something that can be sped up much with money, because you can only have so many people actively writing and modifying the code. If you tried to do so you'd end up with confusion and mix ups (imagine trying to have 30 people simultaneously write one email).

These aren't Blizzard issues, but issues you'll find with any developer at all, regardless of how much money they have or how good their team is.

[Lahis]

The richest, most experienced chef in the world is still gonna take a while to slow roast a piece of meat; there's only so much that throwing money and knowledge at a problem can do anything. There are a couple of issues involved:

First, there is never going to be a situation in which a developer is able to put out more content than a player is able to play, that's just simple math, it's always going to take longer to design, code, create art assets for, compile and test content than it is for a player to just launch the game and play it. You can pad out that difference a little with outright timegating (or with soft timegating, like the RNG and reset locks on raid gear); or rely on the player keeping themselves entertained with the same content over and over for extended periods of time (see: PvP). But that's about it, not enough content is a fundamental and inescapable feature of video game design.

Second, the slowdowns in production are often things that money and resources cannot really deal with. For instance, often in beta one of the slowdowns for content release is the backend implementation of systems. That is, the actual programming of something like torghast (as an example) takes a great deal of time, and is not something that can be sped up much with money, because you can only have so many people actively writing and modifying the code. If you tried to do so you'd end up with confusion and mix ups (imagine trying to have 30 people simultaneously write one email).

These aren't Blizzard issues, but issues you'll find with any developer at all, regardless of how much money they have or how good their team is.

Whiteknight all you want, but delivering one content patch in a year is inexcusable for a MMO.

[TheFirstOnes]

Hey guys, I made the most amazing and detailed piece of Artwork on how the First Ones created the Cosmic Framework!

[Hyrja]

That's why WoD is better than Shadowlands in my opinion. It released in November 2014 and received its last content patch, 6.2, 8 months later in june 2015. And in august 2015 2 months after 6.2 released, they announced Legion at gamescom. The expansion wasnt great but there was always something new and exciting to look forward to. Now with Shadowlands we had 1 content patch in 11 months and there are no signs of a .2 patch and let alone the next expansion. Rough times man

[TheFirstOnes]

How I think the First Ones decided to make a framework to begin with.

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Black is Death, btw...

It's hard to see.

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That's why WoD is better than Shadowlands in my opinion. It released in November 2014 and received its last content patch, 6.2, 8 months later in june 2015. And in august 2015 2 months after 6.2 released, they announced Legion at gamescom. The expansion wasnt great but there was always something new and exciting to look forward to. Now with Shadowlands we had 1 content patch in 11 months and there are no signs of a .2 patch and let alone the next expansion. Rough times man

I think SL slams WoD, the fuck? Content drought doesn't matter to me, knowing it's WoW lol.

[Varodoc]

That's why WoD is better than Shadowlands in my opinion. It released in November 2014 and received its last content patch, 6.2, 8 months later in june 2015. And in august 2015 2 months after 6.2 released, they announced Legion at gamescom. The expansion wasnt great but there was always something new and exciting to look forward to. Now with Shadowlands we had 1 content patch in 11 months and there are no signs of a .2 patch and let alone the next expansion. Rough times man

For all its flaws WoD was easily the most hyped expansion. The setting with the greens... errr, sorry, I meant "orcs" (please don't cancel me ) was super popular because 1) orcs are popular 2) TBC nostalgia, and the cinematic was absolutely iconic and beloved. Unlike the Shadowlands cinematic which generated a lot of drama and fiasco due to Sylvanas humiliating Bolvar. And then Blizzard clearly hyped WoD more than they did with every other expansion, since they literally placed a replica of Gorehowl in front of Times New Square. Blizzard went all out with the hype for WoD, and we see that it worked in the massive surge of subs it had at launch (WoW's subs went from like 6 millions to 10 millions thanks to WoD). WoD was absolutely massive back when it was released.

But it's not a surprise that TBC nostalgia was much more attracting than random vampires and furries who never had a single mention before.

Shadowlands pales in comparison, both in hype and in the amount of advertisement it got. It's not a surprise that when people look back at the WoD cinematic, they always say stuff like "the best cinematic for the worst expansion". WoD was absolutely the most hyped expansion ever, even more than Legion honestly.

It pains me to realize that we live in this timeline... But no other expansion will ever generate the same amount of hype and traffic around the franchise WoD did.

And the evidence is under our eyes for all to bask at:

[TheFirstOnes]

Y'all do realize WoD sucked dick, right? Idc how good the leveling was, it was literally just raiding + the Garrisons.

[therumblings]

Lol, since when did WoD generate that much hype? I remember everyone dreading having to deal with more Orcs after months of SoO

[Hitei]

Whiteknight all you want

This isn't a matter of white knighting, but an explanation of the objective reality of game development. It is an unfortunate reality, but a reality still, and no amount of buzzword-y ad hominem is going to change that.

delivering one content patch in a year is inexcusable for a MMO.

Not sure why I'm bothering to respond to a strawman, but: rather than inexcusable it seems like about the standard. I don't play Guild Wars or FFXIV, but glancing through their version updates, it seems like they are in the exact same situation. I don't follow Warframe all that much anymore, but it has also only released a single large update since summer of last year. Genshin Impact, a game with a fairly aggressive update schedule, has released about one and a half major content updates over the past year.

Wow expansions typically get both there X.1 and X.2 patches in about one year, but also historically the X.1 patch is usually just a raid, or a raid and some dailies added to some existing place, with X.2 being the new area. 9.1 is a bit of both. That seems pretty reasonable for a year as wonky as 2020 to me, but also I'm not looking to be overly outraged by the release schedule of a game I can just stop paying and wait for new content for.

It pains me to realize that we live in this timeline... But no other expansion will ever generate the same amount of hype and traffic around the franchise WoD did.

And the evidence is under our eyes for all to bask at

Every expansion since has also spiked like that, as you can observe from the similar (and higher) initial box sales.