Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Convoluted is simply the wrong word. Nonsensical and aimless are descriptors that fit the story of BfA and rushed and poorly plotted are the ones for SL. BfA went from full on faction conflict to instant-proxy war, to fighting naga - just cause - and freeing old gods, to wrapping up the faction war in a side patch with instant peace after Sylvanas smoke-monsters away and we go to fighting an old god. The whole proxy war was about half a dozen to a dozen warships on each side that for some reason were invaluable resources, only to be written out of the story by blowing up (horde) and falling down into Azshara's little trap (alliance), making the whole ordeal utterly pointless. SL simply relies on every single person being a fucking moron (including the audience) to work and tries to tell some character drama while disregarding all rules of exposition and storytelling.

Pretty much. You can follow the story fine. It's just, well, what you said.

[Dracullus]

snip

Nice wall of text, but I was just responding to your comment that "final raid of the expansion has absolutely nothing to do with the plot the expansion began" while Old Gods had more story focus than war even in 8.0 (despite trailer and whole marketing selling us different expansion).

[Nyel]

Convoluted is simply the wrong word. Nonsensical and aimless are descriptors that fit the story of BfA and rushed and poorly plotted are the ones for SL. BfA went from full on faction conflict to instant-proxy war, to fighting naga - just cause - and freeing old gods, to wrapping up the faction war in a side patch with instant peace after Sylvanas smoke-monsters away and we go to fighting an old god. The whole proxy war was about half a dozen to a dozen warships on each side that for some reason were invaluable resources, only to be written out of the story by blowing up (horde) and falling down into Azshara's little trap (alliance), making the whole ordeal utterly pointless. SL simply relies on every single person being a fucking moron (including the audience) to work and tries to tell some character drama while disregarding all rules of exposition and storytelling.

Convoluted or not, you seem to get the point though. Your description for Shadowlands is spot on. If the Covenant leaders minus the Primus wouldn’t be so incredibly dumb, the entire Shadowlands crisis wouldn’t exist.

lol @ everyone who tries to convince anyone that BfA had a good story and writing.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Convoluted or not, you seem to get the point though.

lol @ everyone who tries to convince anyone that BfA had a good story and writing.

I mean, I don't even see anyone claiming it was good, just that it wasn't convoluted.

[Varodoc]

Convoluted or not, you seem to get the point though. Your description for Shadowlands is spot on. If the Covenant leaders minus the Primus wouldn’t be so incredibly dumb, the entire Shadowlands crisis wouldn’t exist.

lol @ everyone who tries to convince anyone that BfA had a good story and writing.

Yep, BfA had very predictable but trash writing. I still can't believe the Ren'dorei were nowhere to be seen during Patch 8.3.

[Nyel]

I mean, does anyone here expect the machine of death is broken plot that started it all will get resolved and we get the answer for what broke the machine of death? Because this plot smells like Sargeras impaling Azeroth.

[Makabreska]

Convoluted or not, you seem to get the point though. Your description for Shadowlands is spot on. If the Covenant leaders minus the Primus wouldn’t be so incredibly dumb, the entire Shadowlands crisis wouldn’t exist.

lol @ everyone who tries to convince anyone that BfA had a good story and writing.

Nice strawman. We are all talking here about stories not being convoluted. No one claimed them to be good.

[Lady Atia]

Yep, BfA had very predictable but trash writing. I still can't believe the Ren'dorei were nowhere to be seen during Patch 8.3.

They used them for the Vision of Stormwind, that's prolly the reason why they didn't want to have another focus on them lmao. Lorewise they were there, you just didn't have to directly work with them. And honestly it was better that way - I rather work with the neutral parties instead of alliance traitors, especially after the whole faction war sideplot.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I mean, does anyone here expect the machine of death is broken plot that started it all will get resolved and we get the answer for what broke the machine of death? Because this plot smells like Sargeras impaling Azeroth.

No idea. Knowing Blizzard, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't address it, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did and their explanation is fucking stupid.

[Sondrelk]

So like, it could link to the next expansion? Are you even following? You know Blizz plans several expansions forward and they started to interlock them? That and Sylvi are the interlocks.

You also want entire expansion to be about Old Gods? No variety? Where did this come from? So like, do you also don't like WotLK and Legion, because we had Ulduar and EN that were separate from the main story? Blizz never did that, aside maybe in BC.

We could have a lot of stuff means nothing, because time and money are limited, and Blizz chose what they chose. And calling it all convoluted or hard to follow is just dumb, when it's all cause and effect.

The buildup to Shadowlands could have been done with a fraction of the narrative space taken.
Have Sylvanas leave at the beginning, questions arise on whether she is waging a secret war on N'zoth, but surprise surprise, she is actually working with him to kill loads of people, que Shadowlands opening.

Variety is important for sure, but an expansion that loads of players were expecting for years was a South Seas Azshara/N'zoth expansion.
Sail around to a bunch of different islands, fighting pirates, weird inhabitants and Naga. Go down to Nazjatar to defeat Azshara, and then also N'zoth. It was basically BfA, except without the faction war.

And also flavor is the wrong word for a plotline that took up conservatively 80% of the plot leading up to 8.2. The faction divide could have been just as effective a narrative tool if N'zoth simply made the Horde and Alliance distrust one another, and that is the reason we were stuck on different continents.


Dragons were an exotiv flavor over purely undead in Wrath of the Lich King. It was given an entire subzone entirely to itself that included two large dungeons and a raid. It was also a major plotline in Dragonblight. Which itself had a good mini-raid dedicated to dragons. Lastly Dalaran had a dungeon dedicated to dragons.

It would however, have been extremely odd if Deathwing showed up to be the final boss in that expansion.
It would have been foreshadowed, it would have made some sense. It could just as easily then be argued that the expansion was about dragons all along, I mean afterall, a dragon was at least present in the announcement trailer, as well as on the login screen.

[Varodoc]

I mean, does anyone here expect the machine of death is broken plot that started it all will get resolved and we get the answer for what broke the machine of death? Because this plot smells like Sargeras impaling Azeroth.

I think it was implied Denathrius broke it? Since the blast that hit the Arbiter (= Machine of Death) looked like the Venthyr energy. But this isn't clear at all and for the moment it remains unconfirmed.

It wouldn't surprise me if they completely dropped this plot point like the blade of Sargeras, since it's no longer important storywise. Since the Arbiter is gone.

Either way it's garbage writing, but hey, got to score some points in the Woke department before they can finally start writing an actual plot

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Would probably go something like this:

Jailer: I broke the machine of death!

Doesn't elaborate any further.

[Makabreska]

The buildup to Shadowlands could have been done with a fraction of the narrative space taken.
Have Sylvanas leave at the beginning, questions arise on whether she is waging a secret war on N'zoth, but surprise surprise, she is actually working with him to kill loads of people, que Shadowlands opening.

Variety is important for sure, but an expansion that loads of players were expecting for years was a South Seas Azshara/N'zoth expansion.
Sail around to a bunch of different islands, fighting pirates, weird inhabitants and Naga. Go down to Nazjatar to defeat Azshara, and then also N'zoth. It was basically BfA, except without the faction war.

People also expected EN or Argus to be full expansions. If their expectations were wrong, then it's on them, because it simply means Blizz had a different story vision.

And also flavor is the wrong word for a plotline that took up conservatively 80% of the plot leading up to 8.2. The faction divide could have been just as effective a narrative tool if N'zoth simply made the Horde and Alliance distrust one another, and that is the reason we were stuck on different continents.

80% of the plot? The what? Every BfA zone was about dealing with current Old Gods and their proxies + Drust threats, with the exception of brief war campaign moments and Warfronts. Then we got a 8.1 battle and it's over. Pre-xpac War of the Thorns had more faction conflict that entire BfA.

Dragons were an exotiv flavor over purely undead in Wrath of the Lich King. It was given an entire subzone entirely to itself that included two large dungeons and a raid. It was also a major plotline in Dragonblight. Which itself had a good mini-raid dedicated to dragons. Lastly Dalaran had a dungeon dedicated to dragons.

It would however, have been extremely odd if Deathwing showed up to be the final boss in that expansion.
It would have been foreshadowed, it would have made some sense. It could just as easily then be argued that the expansion was about dragons all along, I mean afterall, a dragon was at least present in the announcement trailer, as well as on the login screen.

It would be really odd to have dragon as a main villain in expansion called Wrath of the Lich king that was built up since Warcraft 3? Really? You think? Also you forgot about entirety of Ulduar and Old Gods as a completely separate plot line. Blizz done it since ever and suddenly demanding them to stop it is asinine.

[Nyel]

No idea. Knowing Blizzard, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't address it, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did and their explanation is fucking stupid.

These are the only two options we have, like for real.

[Sondrelk]

Nice wall of text, but I was just responding to your comment that "final raid of the expansion has absolutely nothing to do with the plot the expansion began" while Old Gods had more story focus than war even in 8.0 (despite trailer and whole marketing selling us different expansion).

Where? Really, goddamn where was Old Gods even remotely as big a focus as faction war in 8.0?

The expansion trailer was faction war, the announcement trailer was faction war, the pre-pathc was faction war and the introductory questlines was faction war.
We are talking about an expansion whose main selling points in regards to extraneous systems was Islands expeditions (against opposing faction) and Warfronts (against opposing faction).
3 times during levelling you are pulled aside for a purely Faction war related campaign. And once you reach max level this campaign continues to trundle along as the faction war campaign.
2 of the 6 zones have nothing to do with N'zoth, and 3 of the remaining also have nothing to do with N'zoth, and are only old god related because that is the leadup to the first raid. One of the 6 total zones are unquestionable about faction war. And of course all of this is only if you look at the zones from the perspective of the main faction in them.



Also even then. BfA inarguably began with Teldrassil. That is the entire inciting incident that kicks the expansion off. It leads to teh Alliance retaliating against Undercity, it leads to the naval arms race. It is almost the entire reason the Alliance even does anything at all. They certainly wouldnt have gone to Kul Tiras, and by extension wouldnt have gotten entangled into the N'zoth plot.
I guess you could argue that the sword in Silithus and Azerite was the "actual" inciting incident, but here is the kicker, that plotline has almost nothing to do with N'zoth as well. It's very briefly mentioned as something the Naga are interested in during 8.2, but it has nothing to do with N'zoth until the very end when he tries to attack the heart chamber.



And again, you say it yourself. The marketing sold us an entirely different expansion. Can you honestly, and truthfully say that N'zoth returning has anything to do at all with the trailer of Anduin attacking Undercity? Or the pre-patch marketing of Sylvanas attacking Teldrassil? Because that is the entire point, it has nothing at all in common. It could have, but for some mystifying reason the writers did not even spend a single one of the many cinematics or unique questlines to bridge the two plotlines.
It's Wrath of the Lich King ending with Deathwing despite teh trailers promising Arthas.
It's Legion ending with Azshara, despite the trailers showing heroes of Azeroth fighting the Legion.
It's goddamn BfA, where the trailers showed Anduin rallying the Alliance to fight against Sylvanas, and the final raid was N'zoth, just sitting around.

[Makabreska]

And again, you say it yourself. The marketing sold us an entirely different expansion. Can you honestly, and truthfully say that N'zoth returning has anything to do at all with the trailer of Anduin attacking Undercity? Or the pre-patch marketing of Sylvanas attacking Teldrassil? Because that is the entire point, it has nothing at all in common. It could have, but for some mystifying reason the writers did not even spend a single one of the many cinematics or unique questlines to bridge the two plotlines.
It's Wrath of the Lich King ending with Deathwing despite teh trailers promising Arthas.
It's Legion ending with Azshara, despite the trailers showing heroes of Azeroth fighting the Legion.
It's goddamn BfA, where the trailers showed Anduin rallying the Alliance to fight against Sylvanas, and the final raid was N'zoth, just sitting around.

Dunno what is your problem here. That writers subverted expectations? That you didn't get story ending on a silver platter from the start? Do you feel deceived? Is it not allowed to feign and cover xpac ending? Do you just ignored Azshara Warbringers? I don't get these bizarre issues.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Also not to forget part of the marketing, the Warbringers cinematics, was of Azshara making her deal with N'zoth. I mean, one of the big jokes leading up to and during the beginning of the expaction was "totally not an Old God expansion, guys."

[Sondrelk]

It would be really odd to have dragon as a main villain in expansion called Wrath of the Lich king that was built up since Warcraft 3? Really? You think? Also you forgot about entirety of Ulduar and Old Gods as a completely separate plot line. Blizz done it since ever and suddenly demanding them to stop it is asinine.

And it would be really weird if an expansion that was sold on Alliance vs Horde marketing decided to ditch all of that for a N'zoth plotline that was poorly built up at best.
I am not demanding Blizzard stop having B or even C-plots. I am asking that they don't give us one thing to begin with, and then pull the rug out from under us and give us something else entirely with no explanation for how the two are supposed to be in any way related.



Also, brief war campaign moments? They were literally the entire endgame story. The story at best takes a brief moment to quickly wrap up Uldir so it can get back to espionage and sabotage.
It isnt a case where a few of the war campaign questlines deals with faction war, literally every single one does. That is the entire point.

[Makabreska]

And it would be really weird if an expansion that was sold on Alliance vs Horde marketing decided to ditch all of that for a N'zoth plotline that was poorly built up at best.
I am not demanding Blizzard stop having B or even C-plots. I am asking that they don't give us one thing to begin with, and then pull the rug out from under us and give us something else entirely with no explanation for how the two are supposed to be in any way related.

Eh, I give up. Guess you are one of those that has these "this is how it always should have been" things. Did you survive MoP uncertainty only because devs spilled the beans about SoO during xpac reveal?

Also, brief war campaign moments? They were literally the entire endgame story. The story at best takes a brief moment to quickly wrap up Uldir so it can get back to espionage and sabotage.
It isnt a case where a few of the war campaign questlines deals with faction war, literally every single one does. That is the entire point.

Again, ENTIRE zone questlines have nothing to do with faction war. 2/3 Kul Tiras is a prep for 8.2, 3/3 Zandalar is prep for 8.0 raid. Majority of faction war happened pre-xpac in Darkshore and Undercity.

[Sondrelk]

Dunno what is your problem here. That writers subverted expectations? That you didn't get story ending on a silver platter from the start? Do you feel deceived? Is it not allowed to feign and cover xpac ending? I don't get these bizarre issues.

Yes, writers should not subvert expectations just because they can. They should subvert them because that is what the story doesnt just need, but what makes sense for the story.
This isnt that faction war and Old Gods cannot coexist in the same expansion, MoP proved without a doubt that they can't just go together, they actually go together pretty damn well all things considered. What is the problem is that the writers never spend more than a single voiceline from Sylvanas to try and bridge the gap between "global faction war", and "Eldritch horrors want to kill us".

The faction war stuff dovetails somewhat into Shadowlands I suppose, but that isnt what I want from a WoW expansion. I want the ability to defeat the final boss and think that this is a fight that makes sense to me when I consider how it all began.
When I defeated Archimonde at the end of WoD that made sense, because the story had taken ample time to not just foreshadow the Legion, but also mesh that and the seemingly unrelated Iron Horde plotline into one cohesive whole that made Archimonde a perfectly fitting final boss.
When I defeated Argus I didnt have the faintest idea that he even existed before that very patch, but it was a fight that nevertheless made perfect sense, and was exactly what I wanted out of a Burning Legion themed expansion.

When I defeated N'zoth I didnt at all feel that this was the end to a long story of twists and turns. I felt like the previous expansion had ended in 8.2.5, and I was now in the worlds shortest single patch expansion.