Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

They moved the Timewalking event from immediately on launch to Early December. Probably a wise choice.

Maybe they’ll keep timewalking testing on the PTR for some more weeks and just release the rest of 9.1.5?

[Varodoc]

Yeah they should just release the rest of 9.1.5, you don't need months of testing for blonde hair.

[Zantera]

And I am just sitting here, wondering how 9.2 raid is gonna feel with Dom Shards inactive.

Are you really gonna notice that much of a difference? Can't say I'd put it on the same level as when Corruptions stopped working and you went from feeling like an OP god to a newly dinged character.

[draugril]

Are you really gonna notice that much of a difference? Can't say I'd put it on the same level as when Corruptions stopped working and you went from feeling like an OP god to a newly dinged character.

I'm just so tired of putting in the effort to lean a system that is discarded in a matter of months. There are times when I don't even have the opportunity to log in for months!

[Nyel]

Aren't you fairly optimistic thinking Domination Shards are getting removed? At best they take them as basis for the 9.2 system or just build upon them, lol.

[Zantera]

I'm just so tired of putting in the effort to lean a system that is discarded in a matter of months. There are times when I don't even have the opportunity to log in for months!

I kinda agree though I suppose someone would make the argument this was always the case with tier-sets instead of borrowed power. Even though some of the systems have been fun, I do think the fact they have systems at all is an indication something more fundamental might be broken. Make the classes great and fun to play and you don't need systems!

[Sondrelk]

I'm just so tired of putting in the effort to lean a system that is discarded in a matter of months. There are times when I don't even have the opportunity to log in for months!

Corruptions were one thing, simply because it really did just give you stats, so things like my MM hunter that was fully decked out in gear that made him a god suddenly being nerfed to put him back to boring old standard stats were definitely aggravating, especially when the solution seemed to be there solely to counteract Blizzard for some reason deciding to make Corruption bonuses percentage based instead of flat stats.

Borrowed power like Artifacts and Azerite gear I didnt mind so much, mostly because you tend to get a fully updated character to go along with it. Sometimes you definitely get weaker like we were going into SL because some crucial abilities were made into new abilities to gain while levelling, but usually whatever crucial element was given is given back, or alternatively the class changes so much that the very idea that you need old borrowed power is moot.
Again, MM hunter going from Legion to BfA I barely even registered being weaker in any way, the spec had changed so much that there wasnt really any point in missing specific abilities.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Aren't you fairly optimistic thinking Domination Shards are getting removed? At best they take them as basis for the 9.2 system or just build upon them, lol.

Knowing Blizz's usual system of nonsense they'll remove Domination Shards and add in some super convoluted new system that itself will be removed and replaced with an even more convoluted and nonsensical system that's actually an early alpha test of a major feature for 10.0.

[Black Rider]

Some simple thruth
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._the_past_two/

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Not much love lost for shards of dominations I dunno what they were trying to accomplish but I'm not exactly shedding tears that its gone.

Some simple thruth
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._the_past_two/

They are ignoring the fact that the tail end of Shadowlands development happened in a WFH environment/Covid and well the lawsuit did stop development of wow for a few days to and such. MoP's 5.4 didn't have to deal with that. People don't want to hear that covid affects game dev but it does, accept it.

[Makabreska]

Some simple thruth
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._the_past_two/

Yes, we need to keep ourself reminded that due to Covid and drama this is the slowest content release ever. Thank you.

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Not much love lost for shards of dominations I dunno what they were trying to accomplish but I'm not exactly shedding tears that its gone.

To create a secondary gearing process. We had them pretty much each patch since Legion: Concordance, that Relic talent trees, Essences, Corruption etc. Seems this is the way for Blizz to keep players engaged, but it overstays it's welcome. And since Shards are similar to sets, maybe they are testing something?

[Sondrelk]

Not much love lost for shards of dominations I dunno what they were trying to accomplish but I'm not exactly shedding tears that its gone.

Obvious answer is that they were trying to make a variation of Tier Sets without so many inherent issues prevalent in the old raid tier set system.

[exochaft]

Not much love lost for shards of dominations I dunno what they were trying to accomplish but I'm not exactly shedding tears that its gone.

They are ignoring the fact that the tail end of Shadowlands development happened in a WFH environment/Covid and well the lawsuit did stop development of wow for a few days to and such. MoP's 5.4 didn't have to deal with that. People don't want to hear that covid affects game dev but it does, accept it.

I think they were trying for a hybrid-type of 'tier set' bonus system... it's just more generic and has more steps to become the old tier set system. My guess is that Blizz has been trying to find another system that's on par with tier sets, and they've just been experimenting with different ideas. Not necessarily a bad idea in concept, but their execution and/or implementation has been WAY off the mark since BfA in this regard.

When it comes to the Covid issue, I think a better way to view the situation is how many people who owned and operated businesses view the situation: companies and businesses that struggled or suffered severely from Covid likely had systemic issues going into the pandemic. Obviously that's a generalized statement, but I think it holds true for Blizz. I mean, even if we disregard the lawsuit and surrounding issues, there was obviously problems at Blizz that were causing content creation slowdowns or problems when times were 'good'. Covid just amplified what was wrong with the company, and Blizz is paying the price... and so are the customers.

[draugril]

I kinda agree though I suppose someone would make the argument this was always the case with tier-sets instead of borrowed power. Even though some of the systems have been fun, I do think the fact they have systems at all is an indication something more fundamental might be broken. Make the classes great and fun to play and you don't need systems!

Tier sets, as a system, existed for well over a decade. Items with bonuses are fun! You didn't need to relearn that some items had unique bonuses and set bonuses patch after patch. The structure was consistent. Now, they reinvent systems with the exact same purpose virtually every few months.

[Sondrelk]

Tier sets, as a system, existed for well over a decade. Items with bonuses are fun! You didn't need to relearn that some items had unique bonuses and set bonuses patch after patch. The structure was consistent. Now, they reinvent systems with the exact same purpose virtually every few months.

What isnt fun is feeling like some item slots will never be replaced except with a direct upgrade item.
This is especially noticeable after M+ gave an alternate gearing path for PvE with its own rewards. Assuming the return of Tier Sets works the same then counting the crafted legendary you will only have 10 available gear slots down from 15, counting trinket slots which are themselves usually quite difficult to replace.
The weekly vault is a massive upgrade on the old M+ chest, but even assuming hte full set of 9 options the odds that you will get nothing that can replace what you already have is massively worsened with the simple addition of 4 pieces that you are not going to be replacing until the next major patch.

[Ersula]

Covid. Lawsuits. AND laying off 800 employees in 2019.

2/3rds of Activision-Blizzard's problems are things they did to themselves.

I think 3 ten-boss raids is a healthy amount for an expansion (if not the bare minimum) but Shadowlands suffered more in the story & features department: Torghast is supposed to be the successor to both Warfronts AND Island expeditions? Do each wing twice & you would have seen everything possible to see in there. The next year of WoW will really have to impress people or else the companies lost a major asset.

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Tier sets, as a system, existed for well over a decade. Items with bonuses are fun! You didn't need to relearn that some items had unique bonuses and set bonuses patch after patch. The structure was consistent. Now, they reinvent systems with the exact same purpose virtually every few months.

As I've heard it described, Ion's approach to innovation is to just scramble around stuff we liked in Legion but remake them worse.

[Makorus]

Covid. Lawsuits. AND laying off 800 employees in 2019.

2/3rds of Activision-Blizzard's problems are things they did to themselves.

I think 3 ten-boss raids is a healthy amount for an expansion (if not the bare minimum) but Shadowlands suffered more in the story & features department: Torghast is supposed to be the successor to both Warfronts AND Island expeditions? Do each wing twice & you would have seen everything possible to see in there. The next year of WoW will really have to impress people or else the companies lost a major asset.

- - - Updated - - -


As I've heard it described, Ion's approach to innovation is to just scramble around stuff we liked in Legion but remake them worse.

I mean, the staff they laid off had nothing to do with development, and they did in fact hire more actual developers in response to the layoffs.

While I think Torghast is amazing feature concept-wise, the fact that they put all their eggs into that basket was silly.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Obvious answer is that they were trying to make a variation of Tier Sets without so many inherent issues prevalent in the old raid tier set system.

Their intentions for once weren't bad I feel. Definitely the idea of "nobody rolls on these 5 slots unless it's tier" was a problem.

But their solution ended up just injecting more RNG into loot again. Maybe going forward the solution to how to capture the feel of "tier set bonuses" without the slot-lockout of tier set bonuses is to make a system that, wait for it, isn't tied to gear at all.

[Ersula]

I mean, the staff they laid off had nothing to do with development, and they did in fact hire more actual developers in response to the layoffs.

The people layed off were not developers, but most of them were QUALITY CONTROL; as in testing the actual game: Meaning they absolutely affected Shadowlands development. Not just bugs, but the feedback required to tell the developers "this is not fun". This is directly related to the documented drop in subscribers

[Sondrelk]

Their intentions for once weren't bad I feel. Definitely the idea of "nobody rolls on these 5 slots unless it's tier" was a problem.

But their solution ended up just injecting more RNG into loot again. Maybe going forward the solution to how to capture the feel of "tier set bonuses" without the slot-lockout of tier set bonuses is to make a system that, wait for it, isn't tied to gear at all.

The thing is that there are several aspects to Tier Sets that the system cannot really do without, and which is simultaneously the root of the problem. Powerful passive effects cannot be tuned around a single item if it is supposed to be for only a single tier, or for that matter be gathered over a longer time. They could probably remove the 2-set bonus and lower the 4-set to a 3-set, but that would still leave the biggest problem, that tier sets only really work if they are unquestionably the superior choice, and if they are that good then nothing will ever be able to compete.
Domination sockets tried to at least circumvent the idea that tier sets are top tier in all content however, so maybe future tier sets could similarly only work in raids and the overworld. However, with that you run into a separate issue with tier sets, that they are supposed to be intrinsically tied to the class, and if you are constantly switching what abilities can and cannot be used in content then you are severaly impeding the players ability to get truly comfortable with their rotation. PvP having extra abilities are bad enough in that regard, adding passive tier sets on top that will mesh with WPvP, but not instanced PvP, will undoubtedly cause some conflict with players that dislike the Esports centered mentality.

The thing is that tier sets are intrinsically problematic, and the developers will just have to decide whether to live with it or not. Because like all important gameplay choices its one between making something convenient, or making something deep. Tier sets will definitely make gearing in raids at least much deeper, but it will also make it highly inconvenient for many. It really is just a decision the developers will have to take a firm stance on.