Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[ohwell]

But that isn't what I'm talking about. I have no problem with us fighting Yrel and the Lightbound if they're invading Azeroth. That is a grounded expansion because it's on Azeroth, and the history of the Draenei is well documented. All we have to worry about story-wise is the actual conflict and who is involved. This makes the entire concept more interesting and compelling because we give a shit about Stormwind, Orgrimmar, Ironforge, Thunderbluff, Pandaria, etc. on Azeroth while we simply don't have the same emotional investment in places like Bastion, Ardenwald, Maldraxxus, or Ravendreth.

In addition, the Villains are characters we've already been introduced to. Yrel especially would be an extremely good villain because we fought alongside her, and her villainy isn't totally evil. Turalyon and/or Alleria would be good villains for the same reason; We know them. They're heroes. They're legends. It makes fighting them an emotional experience for the player, because there is an earned connection there, and like Yrel, they may feel that they aren't doing an evil deed.

No, I'm not talking about a Lightbound expansion. I would welcome that expansion with open arms. I'm talking about the purpose behind a Light vs Void expansion. In such an expansion, we would inadvertently have to be on the side of the light, and ultimately we would have to defeat whoever or whatever is controlling the void. Compare what I explained with a Lightbound expansion to us fighting the Void Lords. What do you know about the Void Lords? Why would you care about going to Void planet and killing the Void Lords? Who cares about these characters? Why do we NEED to defeat or kill the Void Lords in the first place?

And yes, that is an escalation that unravels the game, because the Void Lords supposedly CREATED the Old Gods. Again I ask, where do you go after that? When you can beat a creator of gods, going back to killing 10 boars and looting their tusks just doesn't make sense.

You may argue; "Well what if we don't defeat or kill the Void Lords?" Okay cool, then WHAT'S THE POINT of such an expansion?

How is Yrel not totally evil? Join or die or be forcibly added to the ranks for....their cause which might not really be right to begin with. I mean I would have loved to see Xera react to Alleria once she went void elf. Clearly she is on our side at the moment, but I would bet Xera would go apeshit and try to kill her on sight simply because she was void infused. I mean the very question you ask later is why kill the void lords is spot on. We've only been told their bad simply because the light said so and the ones we've encountered seemed hostile yet all it would take is a little void to make the light hostile to us. I think the idea they'll run with is that it's all a matter of perspective just like the "new" chart which a lot of people have shown it's just the old one from a different angle.

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You wouldn't have players mention that the Jailer is horribly underdeveloped if only the Jailer was actually a developed character that wasn't conjured from the ether.

So because he's new he's bad? Yeah ok....

"We need something new!" "Here you go" "AmG POORLY DEVELOPED!!!!!!!" "We're LITERALLY developing a character in front of you" "Ok but what's his plan, what is he after" "Why so you can scream 'Twirling Mustache!!'...yeah no" "BAD LORE BAD LORE!"

[Hellspawn]

I google "Gardens of Life Wowpedia", I click the link to the WoWpedia page, and I am met with a page with just 1 line (of Factual information) in total:



Yes, I totally agree that the expansion after Shadowlands should be set in a location that literally only has 1 line of lore. Naturally

How do people even come up with these shit leaks...

I mean... with Shadowlands we just had the name from the cosmic chart... that's it.

[ohwell]

Honestly every person who says these things don't know that current lore speculation literally is about metaphysics and ancient geometry/fractals which is literal topics that 99.9% of the current population on Earth do not even know about.

I do find everyone of you who think the story of Shadowlands is easy to grasp, fucking hilarious though. Keep on keeping on, I say.

I mean the lore isn't deep, but I mean these are the people who didn't understand why we were killing Illidan in BC....even though every quest up to BT showed exactly what atrocities he was committing much less even those that haven't been retconned away, the torture of the Netherdrakes is still canonically by his hand and direction(oops novel must have missed that in trying to make him heroic). Then again these are also the same people who think he was a hero/antihero when everything he did was for himself or to win Tyrande's favor. I mean they really need to just make the lore more paint by numbers for these people or something and maybe they won't cry bad lore because the children's book level seems a bit too complicated for them.

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I mean... with Shadowlands we just had the name from the cosmic chart... that's it.

Shadowlands has been around and referenced for a very long time. It's not just from the cosmic chart.

[Varodoc]

I mean... with Shadowlands we just had the name from the cosmic chart... that's it.

No with Shadowlands at least we knew that it was a ghostly version of Azeroth and/or a dark forest, it had a place which resembled "Void" for the most evil souls (like Sylvanas and Arthas), and had other things like Mueh'zala, Helya, and some Eye entity that looked at Odyn.

Which is still very little but at least it's not just one line of dialogue spoken by some random trash mob nobody cares about.

If this one random line of dialogue is meant to have some importance, the "Gardens of Life" will at best be a region in one zone. They're not making expansions for every location that is named by every random NPC.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Shadowlands has been around and referenced for a very long time. It's not just from the cosmic chart.

It was mentioned left and right a few times through the years, but there was no real lore beefing it up

[Hellspawn]

It was mentioned left and right a few times through the years, but there was no real lore beefing it up

That's my point.
If they want to explore the cosmic chart, life is the next logical target.... but I really hope they don't do that... it is fine for a patch Zone... but not more. I would like a life-oriented expansion to start on Azeroth.

No with Shadowlands at least we knew that it was a ghostly version of Azeroth and/or a dark forest, it had a place which resembled "Void" for the most evil souls (like Sylvanas and Arthas), and had other things like Mueh'zala, Helya, and some Eye entity that looked at Odyn.

Which is still very little but at least it's not just one line of dialogue spoken by some random trash mob nobody cares about.

If this one random line of dialogue is meant to have some importance, the "Gardens of Life" will at best be a region in one zone. They're not making expansions for every location that is named by every random NPC.

We have the emeral dream for a long time... life has been an important aspect of wow... we have the connection to Ardenweald... and we even have Elune who is a important figure in life lands... the garden of life is just the name they have chosen for it.

[Varodoc]

That's my point.
If they want to explore the cosmic chart, life is the next logical target.... but I really hope they don't do that... it is fine for a patch Zone... but not more. I would like a life-oriented expansion to start on Azeroth.


We have the emeral dream for a long time... life has been an important aspect of wow... we have the connection to Ardenweald... and we even have Elune who is a important figure in life lands... the garden of life is just the name they have chosen for it.

Okay so make an expansion about the Emerald Dream which has been mentioned and has been important for ages and was actually planned to be in the game since Classic?

Instead of this random place that literally only has 1 line of dialogue?

[ohwell]

It was mentioned left and right a few times through the years, but there was no real lore beefing it up

What lore beefed up Pandaria.....

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I don't really want to play another expansion about the cosmic stuff, and definitely no more "heaven and hell" crap. I would looooooove dragon expansion next. A simpler theme is better for WoW, trying to explain deep cosmic stuff in game, at a dumb enough level 12-year-olds can grasp, is not doing anyone any favors.

Especially when the player base is at a 5 year old level and still can't comprehend 12 year old level lore.

[Hellspawn]

Okay so make an expansion about the Emerald Dream which has been mentioned and has been important for ages and was actually planned to be in the game since Classic?

Instead of this random place that literally only has 1 line of dialogue?

We all know that they extending the lore with SL massively, so to me it is not surprising that they give the life lands a proper name with garden of life (or its just a place in the life lands). We already were in the emeral dream multiple times, its is not the life realm itself (probably) but just connected to it.

[Varodoc]

We all know that they extending the lore with SL massively, so to me it is not surprising that they give the life lands a proper name with garden of life (or its just a place in the life lands). We already were in the emeral dream multiple times, its is not the life realm itself (probably) but just connected to it.

Oh the Emerald Dream is not the realm of Life itself? How strange, because it sure does look like anyone would expect a "realm of life" to look like.

But perhaps the grass is greener in the actual """"realm of life"""

[Fahrad Wagner]

You're all missing my point. I wasn't arguing lore and beef were required for an expansion to happen. Shadowlands is the proof of that, despite its few mentions we knew nothing of it. Same goes for Pandaria.

So technically, if Blizzard wanted to do a Gardens of Life expansion: they could. I don't think they would anytime soon, especially following SL, but they could, and the lack of lore wouldn't prevent that.

[Varodoc]

You're all missing my point. I wasn't arguing lore and beef were required for an expansion to happen. Shadowlands is the proof of that, despite its few mentions we knew nothing of it. Same goes for Pandaria.

Because Pandaria was received so well back in the day right?

[Fahrad Wagner]

Because Pandaria was received so well back in the day right?

It was booed by the same toxic trolls who were making kungfu panda jokes, and it ended up to be one the favourite expansion of many players.
MoP was great, and Pandaria's zones were exquisite.

[Varodoc]

It was booed by the same toxic trolls who were making kungfu panda jokes, and it ended up to be one the favourite expansion of many players.
MoP was great, and Pandaria's zones were exquisite.

Ah yes of course, it was just an insignificant fraction of toxic trolls who did that, while the super vast majority ended up loving it. It must have slipped my mind.

[Teriz]

How is Yrel not totally evil? Join or die or be forcibly added to the ranks for....their cause which might not really be right to begin with. I mean I would have loved to see Xera react to Alleria once she went void elf. Clearly she is on our side at the moment, but I would bet Xera would go apeshit and try to kill her on sight simply because she was void infused. I mean the very question you ask later is why kill the void lords is spot on. We've only been told their bad simply because the light said so and the ones we've encountered seemed hostile yet all it would take is a little void to make the light hostile to us. I think the idea they'll run with is that it's all a matter of perspective just like the "new" chart which a lot of people have shown it's just the old one from a different angle.

Yrel is only "evil" when applied to our standards. To her, the Light needs to be spread to all corners of the universe and all vestiges of evil or the Void should be eradicated. How is that any different than what your standard Paladin believes?

The only real difference is that she forces people into her beliefs, and what makes her scary is that she has the power to do it.

That said, I like the idea of Light followers being an antagonistic force.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Ah yes of course, it was just an insignificant fraction of toxic trolls who did that. It must have slipped my mind.

Where did I say insignificant? And why are we discussing the reception of an expansion by players instead of the possibility that an expansion may happen despite its lack of lore backbone?

Don't put words which aren't mine in my mouth, and keep the attitude for someone else, thank you very much pumpkin.

[huth]

Okay so make an expansion about the Emerald Dream which has been mentioned and has been important for ages and was actually planned to be in the game since Classic?

Instead of this random place that literally only has 1 line of dialogue?

By that same logic they should have made the entire expansion about the Maw instead of all those other zones. Besides, you're basing your argument on a falsehood. That "one line" is just the only place they're actually named, not the only place they're referenced.

That the Emerald Dream is possibly only part of a larger whole isn't exactly a new idea either... that's been around since at least WotLK.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Yrel is only "evil" when applied to our standards. To her, the Light needs to be spread to all corners of the universe and all vestiges of evil or the Void should be eradicated. How is that any different than what your standard Paladin believes?

The only real difference is that she forces people into her beliefs, and what makes her scary is that she has the power to do it.

That said, I like the idea of Light followers being an antagonistic force.

I agree it would be interesting, especially since Paladins (with the exceptions of Blood Knights) were always painted as the good guys in the Warcraft universe. Having them being more nuanced, splitting and ranging from moderate ones to downright fanatics will surely be exploited by Blizzard at some point, especially after the Yrel scenario, the Turalyon build up and the Light breadcrumbs in SL. It's not what I'm most excited about, but eh, it's about the execution as much as it is about the theme, so who knows! I wasn't excited for Legion, and I ended up loving it.

[Varodoc]

Where did I say insignificant? And why are we discussing the reception of an expansion by players instead of the possibility that an expansion may happen despite its lack of lore backbone?

Don't put words which aren't mine in my mouth, and keep the attitude for someone else, thank you very much pumpkin.

Which attitude, the one where I call anyone who criticizes something "toxic troll"? Oh wait

[Fahrad Wagner]

Which attitude, the one where I call anyone who criticizes something "toxic troll"? Oh wait

Fallacy, again. I think after the next one, you get one for free.