Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

Yeah & Blackrock Foundry & it dropped the same level range of loot: I explained this so many times: Blackrock Foundry & Nighthold were not full tiers, they were just PART 2 of the first tier. Not only was Nathria a full tier, it was much bigger than Uldir, so we've been getting much bigger raids in fewer patches. That's really relevant to this delay conversation.


They've abandon content a lot in the past for worse reasons. It's not guessing, it's just observing their priorities: releasing Expansions is more important than having Patches

Not saying they didn’t abandon content, they did. And I agree that 9.1 definitely was more in line with the usual .2 patches. But you guessing the patches and raids that could have been is guessing. As I said, I don’t disagree with the general notion.

On the raid stuff: I think that’s splitting hairs regarding the itemlevel. Highmaul is an entry tier raid, the same as Emerald Nightmare and Uldir. Castle Nathria would fall into the same line. Dropping some 10 or 20 itemlevels more is not really indicative for a full raid tier or a half raid tier or whatever. At least in my opinion.

[Veya30]

The problem with FF14 is that the art style, story, mechanics are hard to stomach for the long run, I haven't known anyone who wasn't a giant weeb who could play it for longer than 3 months.

I thought the same thing when this whole exodus to 14 started, but it’s been over half a year and those streamers have kept up their viewership and are even getting huge hits on YouTube.

Big example is Pyromancer, he had like less than 1k viewers when he streamed RuneScape and WoW. Now he has between 3 to 4K with FF14.

I’m just hoping 9.2 is a lot like 8.2. I really enjoyed the dual zones and the way each zone was a bit different. 8.2 really changed BfA for me.

[draugril]

They chase trends of what is the most popular. Currently that is FFXIV. But as soon as that game slows down and WoW gains some traction again, either with a good looking 9.2 or 10.0 then they will be back.

As someone who plays both FFXIV and WoW, I don't understand this perception that FFXIV has been "speeding up." Functionally, the game is doing the exact same things it has been doing since it relaunched. The recent surge in popularity had nothing to do with "hype" or "gaining traction." It came and went, essentially, during a content drought. It's indicative of what WoW is poorly rather than what FFXIV is doing well.

FFXIV did absolutely nothing to make WoW players realize that there are other legitimate alternatives in the MMO space - WoW did that to itself. And I would hardly call that type of shift in perception and paradigm "chasing popular trends." Chasing popular trends is hopping over to WAR or AoC or New World, riding the new release hype. Chasing popular trends is not jumping over to a decade-old game in a content drought.

[Ersula]

I think that’s splitting hairs regarding the itemlevel. Highmaul is an entry tier raid, the same as Emerald Nightmare and Uldir. Castle Nathria would fall into the same line. Dropping some 10 or 20 itemlevels more is not really indicative for a full raid tier or a half raid tier or whatever. At least in my opinion.

Seriously? Comparing Highmaul & Nathria? How about how Blackrock Foundry & Nighthold were complete & in the data for 6.0 & 7.0 respectively; their .1 patch just opened them up to players: That's why 6.1 & 7.1 shouldn't count when comparing other content release schedules to Shadowlands.

If that's the basis, sure there can be a 9.3, but 9.3 would just open the doors to 9.2's raid & be released 9 weeks after.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Why are we worried about streamers again? I mean yeah they got an extra boost cause of FF but in terms of popularity one year is low. Its more interesting to see what happens over several years. Admittingly 2021 feels like half a decade >.>

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I swear the amount of people who go But Ardenweald Raid when the datamining was for Night Fae themed Raid Weaponry it was titled ArdenwealRaid because it looks like it came from Ardenweald and also it was Raid Weaponry from the Globule tokens that you handed in at your respective covenant.

[Ersula]

As someone who plays both FFXIV and WoW, I don't understand this perception that FFXIV has been "speeding up." Functionally, the game is doing the exact same things it has been doing since it relaunched. The recent surge in popularity had nothing to do with "hype" or "gaining traction." It came and went, essentially, during a content drought. It's indicative of what WoW is poorly rather than what FFXIV is doing well.

Okay then we have to point out FFXIV isn't doing anything more innovative than WoW either: Everyone jumping to FFXIV is just the result of a wave of bad press. The only thing 14 is "doing better than WoW" is they have an expansion to promote.

- - - Updated - - -

I swear the amount of people who go But Ardenweald Raid when the datamining was for Night Fae themed Raid Weaponry it was titled ArdenwealRaid because it looks like it came from Ardenweald and also it was Raid Weaponry from the Globule tokens that you handed in at your respective covenant.

I'm not even saying that: Just that you should know they plan filler raids & have already ejected them because of Covid. There is no "minimum" number of major patches.

[Seasz]

Yeah & Blackrock Foundry & it dropped the same level range of loot

I don't think this is relevant at the end. Both raids were treated as separate pieces of content and were given ∼5 months apart to breathe.

Highmaul and Emerald Nightmare were both the de-facto first seasons of their respective expansions, regardless of ilvl gap.

[draugril]

Okay then we have to point out FFXIV isn't doing anything more innovative than WoW either: Everyone jumping to FFXIV is just the result of a wave of bad press. The only thing 14 is "doing better than WoW" is they have an expansion to promote.

That's arguable. If people were sick of WoW and jumped to FFXIV to play more WoW, they'd be sorely disappointed. FFXIV has an entirely different development philosophy behind it. WoW's downturn simply allowed that to be noticed. And I wouldn't trivialize "putting out content" - that's a pretty major element of running a genre that is entirely predicated on regular content updates.

And FFXIV is entirely more innovative than WoW is. It is constantly adding new features and providing novel experiences. WoW perfected its endgame loop in Legion and, as good as that loop is, it hasn't done anything since. I would argue that, on paper, Shadowlands is a notably better expansion than Legion and Battle for Azeroth combined. But it did nothing to innovate. If someone has tired of that loot treadmill, it doesn't matter how smoothly it runs. They're not stepping back on.

[Sondrelk]

As someone who plays both FFXIV and WoW, I don't understand this perception that FFXIV has been "speeding up." Functionally, the game is doing the exact same things it has been doing since it relaunched. The recent surge in popularity had nothing to do with "hype" or "gaining traction." It came and went, essentially, during a content drought. It's indicative of what WoW is poorly rather than what FFXIV is doing well.

FFXIV did absolutely nothing to make WoW players realize that there are other legitimate alternatives in the MMO space - WoW did that to itself. And I would hardly call that type of shift in perception and paradigm "chasing popular trends." Chasing popular trends is hopping over to WAR or AoC or New World, riding the new release hype. Chasing popular trends is not jumping over to a decade-old game in a content drought.

It just got a new expansion, which is when an MMO is at its busiest.

The issue that will arise, or what will cause FFXIV to "slow down" is the game thing that happens to every MMO. It cannot make more content than players can consume, so eventually it just peters out. Eventually it gets a burst of energy with new patches or expansions, but before then you will slowly run out of things to do, and then its just a question of time until you lose interest.

Now, seeing as FFXIV is fairly old by now, I doubt that someone genuinely interested in the game would have a lack of things to do. If someone started WoW now they would easily spend at least a couple of days just defeating every single raid boss, and that isnt even getting into dungeons, or the absolutely immense cache of quests.
For FFXIV I imagine it's similar.


Point is, at some point the streamers that go for FFXIV will get bored, and at that point they will likely try something else. And I wouldnt be surprised if that something ends up being checking what has changed in WoW since they left.

[Azxza]

FFXIV respects its players time. It is a video game first and foremost. It is not designed by a committee to get people to log in as much as possible. Yoshi-p straight up tells people to play another game when they finish with the current patch. Modern WoW is more like an insane asylum where the wranglers meticulously designed said asylum to keep you sick and in there for as long as possible.

[draugril]

It just got a new expansion, which is when an MMO is at its busiest.

The issue that will arise, or what will cause FFXIV to "slow down" is the game thing that happens to every MMO. It cannot make more content than players can consume, so eventually it just peters out. Eventually it gets a burst of energy with new patches or expansions, but before then you will slowly run out of things to do, and then its just a question of time until you lose interest.

Now, seeing as FFXIV is fairly old by now, I doubt that someone genuinely interested in the game would have a lack of things to do. If someone started WoW now they would easily spend at least a couple of days just defeating every single raid boss, and that isnt even getting into dungeons, or the absolutely immense cache of quests.
For FFXIV I imagine it's similar.


Point is, at some point the streamers that go for FFXIV will get bored, and at that point they will likely try something else. And I wouldnt be surprised if that something ends up being checking what has changed in WoW since they left.

That expansion isn't out yet. And when FFXIV got that little boost in popularity, it was like 6 months out. And given that FFXIV focuses on ensuring that all its content is evergreen and relevant in some way, it's a lot more difficult to consume everything relative to WoW's "play the patch" philosophy. I've been playing since 1.0, and there are still features that I have yet to touch. It might be different if I was unemployed, but my point is that WoW content is infinitely easier to "consume" than FFXIV is. Add in that the lead developer overtly tells people to take breaks if they're losing interest and come back later, as opposed to designing systems that strongarm you into getting your subscription to tick over into another month, that doesn't pressure you into completing chores you aren't interested in to be viable for completely different types of content, and you have a game that is much more difficult to burn out on.

I generally don't follow streamers (they are, almost by definition, content locusts), but I have seen this with a lot of my friends and family. They've burnt out on WoW. They thought they burnt out on MMOs. But FFXIV, by the driving philosophy behind its development, has rekindled their love for the genre.

In short, people jumping ship to FFXIV is a completely different situation from people jumping ship to New World. We've seen the New World pattern before with dozens of MMOs in the past - FFXIV among them. We've never seen another seasoned MMO alongside WoW, as FFXIV has become. You can speculate all you want about the interactions of the WoW and FFXIV playerbases, but you can't use those hype-chasing generalized statements here since it really doesn't apply.

[EbaumsTipster]

WoW will benefit from healthy competition and we are already seeing the benefits with sooner-than-later QOL for customers, an interview detailing future accessibility as a focus and more and more requested changes being implemented.

They need to be scared. That's capitalism! People think there can "only be one" big MMO and I disagree, both will likely continue on and respond to one another.

- - - Updated - - -

FFXIV respects its players time. It is a video game first and foremost. It is not designed by a committee to get people to log in as much as possible. Yoshi-p straight up tells people to play another game when they finish with the current patch. Modern WoW is more like an insane asylum where the wranglers meticulously designed said asylum to keep you sick and in there for as long as possible.

If a western game designer told people to play another game while they work on updates they would be crucified. Completely different culture, in America its a huge sign of weakness that people would prey on like animals. Hence why very very few game developers apologize ever, and if they do they its often because have nothing to lose (indie studios).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

And FFXIV is entirely more innovative than WoW is. It is constantly adding new features and providing novel experiences.

Huh? I like FFXIV but I'm not going to pretend it's innovative. The only new notable new feature that FFXIV has introduced is being able to do dungeons solo with NPC party members. Otherwise, it's WoW that innovates with every single new expansions. Flying mounts in TBC, phasing and glyphs and vehicles and Wintergrasp in Wrath, transmog in Cata, scenarios and pet battles and challenge mode in MoP, garrisons and Ashran and a new daily format in WoD, artifacts and class order halls in Legion, Azerite system and island expeditions and warfronts in BFA, and Torghast and Covenants in Shadowlands. Now, Blizzard has managed to consistently botch the execution of those new innovative ideas for the past 4 expansions, but they are new and innovative. FFXIV doesn't attempt anything outside of the box like that at all.

[Azxza]

WoW will benefit from healthy competition and we are already seeing the benefits with sooner-than-later QOL for customers, an interview detailing future accessibility as a focus and more and more requested changes being implemented.

They need to be scared. That's capitalism! People think there can "only be one" big MMO and I disagree, both will likely continue on and respond to one another.

- - - Updated - - -



If a western game designer told people to play another game while they work on updates they would be crucified. Completely different culture, in America its a huge sign of weakness that people would prey on like animals. Hence why very very few game developers apologize ever, and if they do they its often because have nothing to lose (indie studios).

Yoshi-p wasn't apologizing though. He was being firm with what the game's design philosophy is. A philosophy they still uphold with every patch and every expansion. This is why FFXIV's community is so much better than WoW's. The director has a clear vision of what the game is and who it appeals to. The WoW team is only interested in keeping people logging in and spending money on the shop, which is why their design is all over the place and pleases no one. Weak and ineffective direction is the reason for WoW's problems.

[Ersula]

I don't think this is relevant at the end. Both raids were treated as separate pieces of content and were given ∼5 months apart to breathe

My point is they weren't treated as separate pieces of content: People were doing Heroic Highmaul to get gear better than normal Foundry

And they weren't released 5 months apart: Nighthold came out 10 WEEKS after Emerald Nightmare & so did Foundry after Highmaul.

[Cosmic Janitor]

How about you guys shift the discussion away from the topic of other games, as that will just get the thread locked and all that needs to be said has been said a 1000 times over. You won't change either sides opinion anyway.

[Ersula]

FFXIV is entirely more innovative than WoW is. It is constantly adding new features and providing novel experiences.

Literally just adding features WoW already had: That's no innovation. Like I said, their big advantage is having an expansion to promote during WoW droughts, just like Shadowbringers in BFA.

FFXIV respects its players time. It is a video game first and foremost. It is not designed by a committee to get people to log in as much as possible. Yoshi-p straight up tells people to play another game when they finish with the current patch. Modern WoW is more like an insane asylum where the wranglers meticulously designed said asylum to keep you sick and in there for as long as possible.

This is laughable. Japanese games as a whole, are so much more grindy than western games. Unlike wow YOU HAVE TO PAY TO SKIP THE STORY. I don't know if that's changed but when I played I was horrified the only way to skip a pervious expansions storyline was to pay actual money.

I wouldn't describe modern WoW as grindy at all: The main problem is that the skillcap is really punishing & the community has become obsessed with min/maxxing & their virtual credit score.

I'm hoping they add a class to WoW like the classic FF14 Bard: It needs a support spec that can be valuable to a group without min/maxing dps or hps

[Makabreska]

How about you guys shift the discussion away from the topic of other games, as that will just get the thread locked and all that needs to be said has been said a 1000 times over. You won't change either sides opinion anyway.

Thread locked? Please. People are comparing games and their features to each other, hardly an off-topic.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Thread locked? Please. People are comparing games and their features to each other, hardly an off-topic.

The mods constantly lock threads because of game vs game (usually this just means wow vs ffxiv).