Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

I don't know if they need to go full Cata 2.0 with the next expansion but I for one would love it to see world quests sprinkled all throughout Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. So many great zones that you have zero reason to revisit sadly. I love me some new zones as well though but regarding the "BFA was technically on Azeroth" point, while that is true, it didn't necessarily feel like it. Like you're stuck to these new zones that might as well have been on another planet.

1. Make the entire world scale your level.

2. Add world quests to both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms.

3. Win.

[draugril]

I don't mind Cosmic plotlines, when they're diluted into something else that is more grounded. I want to feel the buildup, the anticipation, but I still want to retain some mystery and some things we can't explain. The problem is the more we go cosmic... the less mysterious the world of Warcraft feels to me.

And the smaller the world is as a consequence, even if they're making it bigger on paper.

They need to focus on telling personal stories again, with the conflicts being a simple backdrop. Thrall's story was about discovering your roots and the burden of leadership. Grommash was about overcoming addiction and redeeming yourself. Arthas was about the ends not justifying the means. And so on. Yes, Thrall and Grommash assisted in defeating the Burning Legion and Arthas became the world's most powerful Necromancer, but that's not really what their stories were about. I can't tell you the motivations or struggles of any characters in modern WoW. Can anyone describe Bolvar to me as a person, without detailing his job description?

You can go as cosmic as you like if you have good character motivations and development. But the current writers seem to have forgotten that most basic tenet. They are exploring the setting rather than their characters. As such, the story is, at best, as engaging as reading an encyclopedia. Don't get me wrong - I love me a good encyclopedia! But not when I'm expecting an engaging fantasy story.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't mind Cosmic plotlines, when they're diluted into something else that is more grounded. I want to feel the buildup, the anticipation, but I still want to retain some mystery and some things we can't explain. The problem is the more we go cosmic... the less mysterious the world of Warcraft feels to me.

We've barely touched the cosmos and no mystery stays unknown forever.

[NikolaiShade]

The story makes zero issues into making them AR's. SL are saved and fixed, Covs as a gratitude allow some of their members to join us. Bam. Most bare-bones, but still logical reason. Story provides zero problems, the things like animations, armour fitting are always the main issue with AR's. But I think all these has been alr covered when they made them. If we get AR's in the future, Covs are no. 1 choice.

Another take: something bad from SL has got on Azeroth, covenants wil return the favor helping the maw walker thus becoming ARs

[EbaumsTipster]

Another take: something bad from SL has got on Azeroth, covenants wil return the favor helping the maw walker thus becoming ARs

That's probably what it is. Also remember Azeroth may be A Zereth so they may be dispatched to Azeroth to protect it as it is important to the First Ones.

[Sondrelk]

I find it weird too. People moping about being away from Azeroth, when we were on Azeroth for the last expansion. Like, I'd get it if this was the second or third expansion away from Azeroth, but we were literally just there.

It's not so much that we are leaving Azeroth, it's that not only did we start there instead of Legion wehre it was teh final patch, but it's also a loation that seems to be entirely chosen for its "cool" factor, and not really because it pertains to much of anything.

As I have said before, this expansion really should have been Northrend, with the Maw as a possible endgame zone at most. Keep players grounded on Azeroth so that when we eventually go to Zereth mortis and run across giant chains it feels even more special.

Since we have stayed in the Shadowlands the entire expansion so far there isnt really anything Blizzard can pull that would top it, so to speak. Zereth mortis is just another nondescript realm, and while it may be cool and all, it isnt really the same as patiently waiting for the descent into insanity like what Argus was for Legion.

[Veya30]

Pretty sure theres rules against letting the dead back into the world of the living. That pretty much defies the existence of a "veil," the natural order, in the first place. Especially when Denathrius had to conduct a whole fake crisis to "exile" the Dreadlords there, and now they rest of the covenants know doing so has put both realms in jeopardy.

But say, if someone used the sepulcher to reorder the shadowlands & all its denizens got exiled to the mortal plane, that would be a more natural segway to getting them as allied races.

Were the Dreadlords just created by Denathrius or were they created from mortal souls like a majority of the Venthyr? I know that Renathal, the Curator and the first Stonewright were just created by Denathrius, were the Dreadlords created the same way?

[EbaumsTipster]

The way the veil works is mostly headcanon. There is no quest lore or dialogue that says the races can't go to other worlds besides some foreboding words about the Maw specifically. That is based on assumptions: it would make sense for them to police SL races from escaping their fates, but.... nope, there isn't any of that ingame. They all just stay in the realm because Video Game.

It would be cool to explore the idea of SL races escaping through tears in space like the Dreadlords and Maldraxxi spies but nop we haven't gotten that yet.

[Makabreska]

This is all new and developing lore. Blizz can change it on the fly no prob.

[Ersula]

1. Make the entire world scale your level.

2. Add world quests to both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms.

3. Win.

They don't like unilateral level scaling because it makes people who already leveled up feel less powerful. Instead, design a new post-teldrassil Azeroth, add world quests as level 60-70 content & keep the cataclysm era version for lower level people.

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This is all new and developing lore. Blizz can change it on the fly no prob.

Okay, but at that point, if the dead can freely come & go from the Shadowlands, all this "genocide" politics talk is bunk. Murder is meaningless if everybody can just come & go as they please.

[Fahrad Wagner]

We've barely touched the cosmos and no mystery stays unknown forever.

I do not really agree, to me the cosmos isn't just about the realms of each forces. We've been to the Emerald Dream/Nightmare, to the Elemental Planes, to Argus and to the Seat of the Pantheon, to Ny'alotha... When I say cosmos, it does not have to be per se the realms of Life/Light/Void/Order, etc. but anything that touches those realms a bit too close or is a bit too disconnected from Azeroth.

Discovering the Shadowlands through and through has removed any mystery as to how Death works in WoW, and somehow made it less meaningful to me. And don't get me wrong I don't hate this expansion at all, and I am really fond of Ardenweald for example... I just like to keep a bit of mystery, especially when it comes to bigger powers. I agree that no mystery stays unknown forever, but in a fictionnal universe you have to keep a few: it's what keeps you hooked until the end. If everything is explained and said, then as stated earlier the game becomes some kind of encyclopedia of how things work in that world, and that's pretty much it. Coherence is important, but so is mystery in my opinion.

I also strongly agree with the comment made earlier about Blizzard focusing on exploring the setting rather than the characters: that is what is fundamentally wrong with Blizzard's storytelling today, again, in my humble opinion. I think Saurfang's arc was really interesting, not because of its impact in the war, but because in the end it was the story of an old warrior who'd lost his only son and was struggling inside on whether he should give up or fight another day for what's right. I'm not saying that anything linked to the cosmology or even big plotlines should be banned from the game: of course not. I'm just saying they should be used with parcimony. I think Suramar was a great example for that: it was telling the story of the Legion's invasion THROUGH the people and culture of Suramar, and that was fascinating.

Today I am more interested in one day visiting Tel'Abim than to visit the realm of Light, because the build up took years (unlike the new cosmology which is part of a recent massive retcon) and there is almost no information on it: the mystery is REAL. Do I know more about the realm of Light than Tel'Abim though? No. So why am I not interested by it? Because I'm afraid it's gonna escalate one step more, and characters will be once again even more lost in the gigantic explanation of how this realm works.

I might change my mind in the end, but I like grounded stories hinting at something bigger, and then eventually culminating there, before slowing down again. That's also one of the reasons why I loved MoP and didn't hate BfA I guess.

Anyway, don't take any of that as hard truth, it's only my opinion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't know if they need to go full Cata 2.0 with the next expansion but I for one would love it to see world quests sprinkled all throughout Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. So many great zones that you have zero reason to revisit sadly. I love me some new zones as well though but regarding the "BFA was technically on Azeroth" point, while that is true, it didn't necessarily feel like it. Like you're stuck to these new zones that might as well have been on another planet.

Except we aren't but somehow a different zone with a fancy loading screen "feels" like we aren't on the same planet we know. Well thats on you.

I do not really agree, to me the cosmos isn't just about the realms of each forces. We've been to the Emerald Dream/Nightmare, to the Elemental Planes, to Argus and to the Seat of the Pantheon, to Ny'alotha... When I say cosmos, it does not have to be per se the realms of Life/Light/Void/Order, etc. but anything that touches those realms a bit too close or is a bit too disconnected from Azeroth.

The emerald Dream is more Azeroth related more then anything else. Same with the elemental planes its specific to Azeroth(And yes I know each world has its own elementals and such). Argus was ONE planet related to Fel and demons but theoretically there could be something else in the Twisting Nether that we haven't touched. The Burning Legion is a very used theme but we stopped after Legion. Demons aren't really relevant as they used to be and no the dreadlords don't count cause their importance is relevant to death. This feeling of disconnection you are feeling is superficial and well you are projecting onto the game. You are doing it to yourself and quite frankly other realms is not uncommon in Fantasy.

[Ersula]

Were the Dreadlords just created by Denathrius or were they created from mortal souls like a majority of the Venthyr? I know that Renathal, the Curator and the first Stonewright were just created by Denathrius, were the Dreadlords created the same way?

Yes, the Dreadlords quests explain that: Denathrius made the Dreadlords as a combination of Stoneborne & Venthyr. But they basically took over Venthyr society & when everyone else in Revendreth protested he "exiled" the Dreadlords from the Shadowlands, then also revealing this was always his plan. A contrivance to get them out into the larger universe & operate as his spies.

[Hellspawn]

They don't like unilateral level scaling because it makes people who already leveled up feel less powerful. Instead, design a new post-teldrassil Azeroth, add world quests as level 60-70 content & keep the cataclysm era version for lower level people.

I agree they should phase cata entirely and make new stuff with Azeroths old Zones.
Additional to leveling or alternative to that... make special Zone even that lasts for some time (3-7 days) make it endgame content with unique quests and rewards and some optional pvp objectives depending on the Zones (some might be for one faction only and don't fit for pvp)

[Cosmic Janitor]

The way the veil works is mostly headcanon. There is no quest lore or dialogue that says the races can't go to other worlds besides some foreboding words about the Maw specifically. That is based on assumptions: it would make sense for them to police SL races from escaping their fates, but.... nope, there isn't any of that ingame. They all just stay in the realm because Video Game.

It would be cool to explore the idea of SL races escaping through tears in space like the Dreadlords and Maldraxxi spies but nop we haven't gotten that yet.

It is heavily implied that only Kyrians on duty and Maldraxxi spies leave the shadowlands. The first we know from some NPC flavor texts about maybe visiting our home and the later we know from an animated short. The other's don't ever mention it, heck, Venthyr practically can't deal with sunlight at all, which would make most planets with live kinda hostile to them by default. Ardenweald is kinda busy doing their soul mulching business and eating one another.

[The Stormbringer]

Thats why in WoD the Devs wanted to change it to one year cycles: It's a lot easier to manage expectations if every November we had a new place to explore then in may we had a new major patch that wraps up the story. Then repeat every year. Never having to worry about content droughts again: Just new content every 6 months.

I know this is from the other day, but if they did that, expansions would have to be shrunk down in scale considerably. We're talking like, an expansion that releases with half as many zones, dungeons, and raids at a minimum in order to do that, and they seem incapable of doing so.

I also feel like it would just... not be very fun, given how they tend to tell their stories these days. Personally I feel like two years, or at least a year and a half, sixteen months, somewhere around there? Something like that would be more reasonable. It all depends on how long it takes to create certain the various bits and pieces of the game.

I don't think we'll ever see the 77 day release cycle of Legion again though, that's for certain.

[EbaumsTipster]

It is heavily implied that only Kyrians on duty and Maldraxxi spies leave the shadowlands. The first we know from some NPC flavor texts about maybe visiting our home and the later we know from an animated short. The other's don't ever mention it, heck, Venthyr practically can't deal with sunlight at all, which would make most planets with live kinda hostile to them by default. Ardenweald is kinda busy doing their soul mulching business and eating one another.

Again, they stick to their zones, but there isn't any lore saying they can't leave their plane. They just don't and haven't in the past because these races (aside from Kyrian/Spirit Healers) didn't exist before this expansion. And yeah we know Kyrians can hang around in other realms if they want to: see the one that dated Azuregos.

As for the Venthyr thing it's the Holy Light itself they can't deal with, not sunlight. Likely having to do with some kind of innate Shadow connection that the Nathrezim and maybe Denathrius have. They get around Bastion just fine (there are a few there).

[huth]

As for the Venthyr thing it's the Holy Light itself they can't deal with, not sunlight. Likely having to do with some kind of innate Shadow connection that the Nathrezim and maybe Denathrius have. They get around Bastion just fine (there are a few there).

It's even outright stated that it is the Light specifially that harms then, not any light.

And it is because of whatever the Nathrezim did that made the Light attack Revendreth.

[Ersula]

The emerald Dream is more Azeroth related more then anything else. Same with the elemental planes its specific to Azeroth(And yes I know each world has its own elementals and such). Argus was ONE planet related to Fel and demons but theoretically there could be something else in the Twisting Nether that we haven't touched. The Burning Legion is a very used theme but we stopped after Legion. Demons aren't really relevant as they used to be and no the dreadlords don't count cause their importance is relevant to death. This feeling of disconnection you are feeling is superficial and well you are projecting onto the game. You are doing it to yourself and quite frankly other realms is not uncommon in Fantasy.

I have to draw on some ideas from the celestial planes in D&D but from what I gather the Shadowlands is like the "real world" or rather, everything was originally one plane of existence. The Titans, The Covenant Leaders & Elune are analogs, or more or less the same "race". And the Titan Pantheon "ordered" the universe, with the Shadowlands leaders consent. This was for the specific purpose of protecting the cultivation of "world souls" which until they establish otherwise, going to assume how all these Titan analogs start out. They separated a positive-aligned plane (The Emerald Dream) to create life on the World Souls, and a negative-aligned plane, the Shadowlands, where life goes when it dies. And balancing between them is the "Material plane" the realm of the living: Where World Souls can grow in peace. Or relative peace. Because all the cosmic forces are still fighting over them.

The Shadowland contributes to the cultivation of world souls by protecting this "natural" order & recycling the energy life forms pick up during their lives, returning that energy to this system, "the great cycle"

They call it the "natural" order but its not very natural: It's just the most advantageous system for them.

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It's even outright stated that it is the Light specifially that harms then, not any light.

And it is because of whatever the Nathrezim did that made the Light attack Revendreth.

Because a lot of Revendreth's lore is cribed from Ravenloft, the Demi-plane of Dread D&D setting. Sunlight hurts vampires but there's no natural sun in Ravenloft. Light, but not real(tm) light.

[huth]

I have to draw on some ideas from the celestial planes in D&D but from what I gather the Shadowlands is like the "real world" or rather, everything was originally one plane of existence. The Titans, The Covenant Leaders & Elune are analogs, or more or less the same "race". And the Titan Pantheon "ordered" the universe, with the Shadowlands leaders consent. This was for the specific purpose of protecting the cultivation of "world souls" which until they establish otherwise, going to assume how all these Titan analogs start out. They separated a positive-aligned plane (The Emerald Dream) to create life on the World Souls, and a negative-aligned plane, the Shadowlands, where life goes when it dies. And balancing between them is the "Material plane" the realm of the living: Where World Souls can grow in peace. Or relative peace. Because all the cosmic forces are still fighting over them.

The Shadowland contributes to the cultivation of world souls by protecting this natural order & recycling the energy life forms pick up during their lives, returning that energy to this system, "the great cycle"

I think you're way off-target. The Pantheon Titans made it their mission to order the part of the universe they knew... which is solely the mortal plane. They're aware the Shadowlands exist, but have no knowledge of what goes on there. They did not, to our knowledge, come into concious existence until after the First Ones finished their setup. People are likely way overestimating their impact - there's only a single digit number of them in the universe, which makes it unlikely that they really made all that much of a difference. Same way the Legion was mostly bluster - it was way to small to ever actually finish its mission with its traditional methods.

Because a lot of Revendreth's lore is cribed from Ravenloft, the Demi-plane of Dread D&D setting. Sunlight hurts vampires but there's no natural sun in Ravenloft. Light, but not real(tm) light.

I don't think that in particular is the reason for it. While i don't doubt Ravenloft served as one of many inspirations (as did many classic, non-sparkly vampire stories), having the Light harm Venthyr because they pretty much directly angered it is a perfectly reasonable outcome all on its own.