Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[The Stormbringer]

Thats why in WoD the Devs wanted to change it to one year cycles: It's a lot easier to manage expectations if every November we had a new place to explore then in may we had a new major patch that wraps up the story. Then repeat every year. Never having to worry about content droughts again: Just new content every 6 months.

I know this is from the other day, but if they did that, expansions would have to be shrunk down in scale considerably. We're talking like, an expansion that releases with half as many zones, dungeons, and raids at a minimum in order to do that, and they seem incapable of doing so.

I also feel like it would just... not be very fun, given how they tend to tell their stories these days. Personally I feel like two years, or at least a year and a half, sixteen months, somewhere around there? Something like that would be more reasonable. It all depends on how long it takes to create certain the various bits and pieces of the game.

I don't think we'll ever see the 77 day release cycle of Legion again though, that's for certain.

[EbaumsTipster]

It is heavily implied that only Kyrians on duty and Maldraxxi spies leave the shadowlands. The first we know from some NPC flavor texts about maybe visiting our home and the later we know from an animated short. The other's don't ever mention it, heck, Venthyr practically can't deal with sunlight at all, which would make most planets with live kinda hostile to them by default. Ardenweald is kinda busy doing their soul mulching business and eating one another.

Again, they stick to their zones, but there isn't any lore saying they can't leave their plane. They just don't and haven't in the past because these races (aside from Kyrian/Spirit Healers) didn't exist before this expansion. And yeah we know Kyrians can hang around in other realms if they want to: see the one that dated Azuregos.

As for the Venthyr thing it's the Holy Light itself they can't deal with, not sunlight. Likely having to do with some kind of innate Shadow connection that the Nathrezim and maybe Denathrius have. They get around Bastion just fine (there are a few there).

[huth]

As for the Venthyr thing it's the Holy Light itself they can't deal with, not sunlight. Likely having to do with some kind of innate Shadow connection that the Nathrezim and maybe Denathrius have. They get around Bastion just fine (there are a few there).

It's even outright stated that it is the Light specifially that harms then, not any light.

And it is because of whatever the Nathrezim did that made the Light attack Revendreth.

[Ersula]

The emerald Dream is more Azeroth related more then anything else. Same with the elemental planes its specific to Azeroth(And yes I know each world has its own elementals and such). Argus was ONE planet related to Fel and demons but theoretically there could be something else in the Twisting Nether that we haven't touched. The Burning Legion is a very used theme but we stopped after Legion. Demons aren't really relevant as they used to be and no the dreadlords don't count cause their importance is relevant to death. This feeling of disconnection you are feeling is superficial and well you are projecting onto the game. You are doing it to yourself and quite frankly other realms is not uncommon in Fantasy.

I have to draw on some ideas from the celestial planes in D&D but from what I gather the Shadowlands is like the "real world" or rather, everything was originally one plane of existence. The Titans, The Covenant Leaders & Elune are analogs, or more or less the same "race". And the Titan Pantheon "ordered" the universe, with the Shadowlands leaders consent. This was for the specific purpose of protecting the cultivation of "world souls" which until they establish otherwise, going to assume how all these Titan analogs start out. They separated a positive-aligned plane (The Emerald Dream) to create life on the World Souls, and a negative-aligned plane, the Shadowlands, where life goes when it dies. And balancing between them is the "Material plane" the realm of the living: Where World Souls can grow in peace. Or relative peace. Because all the cosmic forces are still fighting over them.

The Shadowland contributes to the cultivation of world souls by protecting this "natural" order & recycling the energy life forms pick up during their lives, returning that energy to this system, "the great cycle"

They call it the "natural" order but its not very natural: It's just the most advantageous system for them.

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It's even outright stated that it is the Light specifially that harms then, not any light.

And it is because of whatever the Nathrezim did that made the Light attack Revendreth.

Because a lot of Revendreth's lore is cribed from Ravenloft, the Demi-plane of Dread D&D setting. Sunlight hurts vampires but there's no natural sun in Ravenloft. Light, but not real(tm) light.

[huth]

I have to draw on some ideas from the celestial planes in D&D but from what I gather the Shadowlands is like the "real world" or rather, everything was originally one plane of existence. The Titans, The Covenant Leaders & Elune are analogs, or more or less the same "race". And the Titan Pantheon "ordered" the universe, with the Shadowlands leaders consent. This was for the specific purpose of protecting the cultivation of "world souls" which until they establish otherwise, going to assume how all these Titan analogs start out. They separated a positive-aligned plane (The Emerald Dream) to create life on the World Souls, and a negative-aligned plane, the Shadowlands, where life goes when it dies. And balancing between them is the "Material plane" the realm of the living: Where World Souls can grow in peace. Or relative peace. Because all the cosmic forces are still fighting over them.

The Shadowland contributes to the cultivation of world souls by protecting this natural order & recycling the energy life forms pick up during their lives, returning that energy to this system, "the great cycle"

I think you're way off-target. The Pantheon Titans made it their mission to order the part of the universe they knew... which is solely the mortal plane. They're aware the Shadowlands exist, but have no knowledge of what goes on there. They did not, to our knowledge, come into concious existence until after the First Ones finished their setup. People are likely way overestimating their impact - there's only a single digit number of them in the universe, which makes it unlikely that they really made all that much of a difference. Same way the Legion was mostly bluster - it was way to small to ever actually finish its mission with its traditional methods.

Because a lot of Revendreth's lore is cribed from Ravenloft, the Demi-plane of Dread D&D setting. Sunlight hurts vampires but there's no natural sun in Ravenloft. Light, but not real(tm) light.

I don't think that in particular is the reason for it. While i don't doubt Ravenloft served as one of many inspirations (as did many classic, non-sparkly vampire stories), having the Light harm Venthyr because they pretty much directly angered it is a perfectly reasonable outcome all on its own.

[EbaumsTipster]

9.2 will definitely be a lore bomb about the extent of the Titan's knowledge. Considering the First Ones seem obsessed with ordering everything despite not being THE Order beings (the Titans), they may end up being their direct children or (through some time bullshit) one and the same.

[Lahis]

Can anyone explain this "lifelands" shit? Is this a term someone made up for an actual place or did I miss Lifelands getting mentioned?

The Life equivalent of Shadowlands. We don't have name for them yet, so we call it Lifelands.

[Paperfox]

They don't like unilateral level scaling because it makes people who already leveled up feel less powerful. Instead, design a new post-teldrassil Azeroth, add world quests as level 60-70 content & keep the cataclysm era version for lower level people.

For some reason I thought that level cap of 60 was a core design thing going forward. Are they keeping the Max Level = 60 thing?

In 10.0 what would the leveling process for a new toon be?
* 10-50 in Chromie Time, then 51-60 in SL, then 60+ in 10.0, or
* 10-50 in Chromie Time (which now includes SL), then 51+ in 10.0

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The Life equivalent of Shadowlands. We don't have name for them yet, so we call it Lifelands.

If we go with a name inspired by the two mounts (Sunwarmed Furline and that blue bird) then we could call it "Feathers and Fur".

[Ersula]

I think you're way off-target. The Pantheon Titans made it their mission to order the part of the universe they knew... which is solely the mortal plane. They're aware the Shadowlands exist, but have no knowledge of what goes on there. They did not, to our knowledge, come into concious existence until after the First Ones finished their setup. People are likely way overestimating their impact - there's only a single digit number of them in the universe, which makes it unlikely that they really made all that much of a difference. Same way the Legion was mostly bluster - it was way to small to ever actually finish its mission with its traditional methods.

But they already said the book Chronicles is from the Titan's perspective. If the shadowlands is so unknowable why did they make it a tiny dot on the Titan's grand cosmology chart? And I am saying the Titans are far below the First Ones, but the Titans are clearly on the same par or higher than the Covenant Leaders, the "Eternal Ones" otherwise why would they care about World Souls? Why would they care about the living at all? Seems to strongly suggest The First Ones told the Titans "you protect the world souls & make people to defend them" & then they told the Eternal Ones "You protect the dead" they symbiotic nature of the living & the dead in this universe is too idiocentric to be accidental.

And as for the Elemental Planes: From what it seems the titans were interrupted in building a system to protect Draenor's world soul. So Draenor "should" have its own emerald dream, they just never established a way to connect to it, like creating the Emerald Dragonflight. And the Elemental Planes are like a "pocket dimension" really like a special penalty box the Titans made for Azeroth's elemental lords: This is inspired by D&D lore too: The gods had to separate the world into multiple planes to appease the Primordial elements.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

For some reason I thought that level cap of 60 was a core design thing going forward. Are they keeping the Max Level = 60 thing?

In 10.0 what would the leveling process for a new toon be?
* 10-50 in Chromie Time, then 51-60 in SL, then 60+ in 10.0, or
* 10-50 in Chromie Time (which now includes SL), then 51+ in 10.0

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If we go with a name inspired by the two mounts (Sunwarmed Furline and that blue bird) then we could call it "Feathers and Fur".

I dunno I always figured it would raise to 70 to keep pace with Classic.

So 1-10 in Exile's Reach, 10-60 in the revamp, 60-70 in the new areas.

[draugril]

We've barely touched the cosmos and no mystery stays unknown forever.

Most mysteries are interesting solely because they are mysteries. Especially when they exist for world-building purposes rather than narrative.

There's a reason we don't know what happened to the Entwives or the Dwemer.

[Sondrelk]

For some reason I thought that level cap of 60 was a core design thing going forward. Are they keeping the Max Level = 60 thing?

In 10.0 what would the leveling process for a new toon be?
* 10-50 in Chromie Time, then 51-60 in SL, then 60+ in 10.0, or
* 10-50 in Chromie Time (which now includes SL), then 51+ in 10.0

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If we go with a name inspired by the two mounts (Sunwarmed Furline and that blue bird) then we could call it "Feathers and Fur".

Always seemed to me like it would be the norm going forward since it makes designing the levelling experience much easier, but the new heirlooms throw a bit of a wrench into those plans.

I really don't know at this point, but I do hope Blizzard keeps endgame at level 60 ,with players getting squished back to 50 every pre-patch. Just makes more sense to me.

[Cosmic Janitor]

As for the Venthyr thing it's the Holy Light itself they can't deal with, not sunlight. Likely having to do with some kind of innate Shadow connection that the Nathrezim and maybe Denathrius have. They get around Bastion just fine (there are a few there).

I may remember this wrong, but I thought Theotar mentions something to their general light aversion during the quest where they infiltrate bastion.

[Sondrelk]

I dunno I always figured it would raise to 70 to keep pace with Classic.

So 1-10 in Exile's Reach, 10-60 in the revamp, 60-70 in the new areas.

That is a definite possibility, and it wouldnt ruin things entirely. It would however be putting WoW levelling back on the exact same path that made it necessary to squish levels to begin with, that being that individual levels became mostly pointless as actual abilities became few and far between even as levels rolled by at a blistering pace.

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I may remember this wrong, but I thought Theotar mentions something to their general light aversion during the quest where they infiltrate bastion.

I believe the light in the Ember Ward is different from regular sunlight, in that the one in the Ember Wars is actually just straight up light magic, whereas sunlight in Bastion is just regular light.
Presumably Venthyr could leave Revendreth and go to Azeroth without much problem in the sense that there is sun. While the Venthyr are clearly supposed to be Vampires in execution, they are not really beholden to nearly the same weaknesses.

[TheFirstOnes]

But they already said the book Chronicles is from the Titan's perspective. If the shadowlands is so unknowable why did they make it a tiny dot on the Titan's grand cosmology chart? And I am saying the Titans are far below the First Ones, but the Titans are clearly on the same par or higher than the Covenant Leaders, the "Eternal Ones" otherwise why would they care about World Souls? Why would they care about the living at all? Seems to strongly suggest The First Ones told the Titans "you protect the world souls & make people to defend them" & then they told the Eternal Ones "You protect the dead" they symbiotic nature of the living & the dead in this universe is too idiocentric to be accidental.

And as for the Elemental Planes: From what it seems the titans were interrupted in building a system to protect Draenor's world soul. So Draenor "should" have its own emerald dream, they just never established a way to connect to it, like creating the Emerald Dragonflight. And the Elemental Planes are like a "pocket dimension" really like a special penalty box the Titans made for Azeroth's elemental lords: This is inspired by D&D lore too: The gods had to separate the world into multiple planes to appease the Primordial elements.

Every cosmic power cares for Azeroth. You'll need to be more specific.

[Ersula]

Every cosmic power cares for Azeroth. You'll need to be more specific.

Actually I think you just hit the nail on the head: The Titans (Order) & The Eternal Ones (Death) & Elune (Life) cares about the World Soul so they can let the World Souls grow into being that are like them. I was operating under the idea that the other forces want the World Souls for power & territory. But maybe that's how their made as well. Sargeras said corrupting the world soul would make Azeroth "Like him" in the Warlock Order Hall lore. So a Corrupted World soul becames a chaos or void aligned entity.

I can't imagine what kind of f'd up sh't it would take for a World Soul to turn into a Naaru

[Zantera]

1. Make the entire world scale your level.

2. Add world quests to both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms.

3. Win.

I'm not necessarily against scaling but I think there's also something about overpowering a zone as well. Doing Barrens at level 10 and then coming back at max level and the mobs are still 'challenging' would be a problem for some.

[EbaumsTipster]

One of the reasons I think a revamp is coming is that I doubt they will have new players continue to go through BFA and SL. Especially not SL if we go back to Azeroth. I really don’t think that SL story will lead to 10.0 the way that BFA did to SL.

So new players will need an expansion to level in that actually takes place on Azeroth, but isn’t Endgame yet. Hence revamp 10-60 and new zones like Dragon Isles for endgame leveling.

Though I’ll admit they could have them just do BFA again because it sets up a bunch of stuff on Azeroth unrelated to SL like the council.

[Sondrelk]

I'm not necessarily against scaling but I think there's also something about overpowering a zone as well. Doing Barrens at level 10 and then coming back at max level and the mobs are still 'challenging' would be a problem for some.

That is true, but there is somewhat of a problem if the vast majority of your game is trivial.
Maybe not all zones should be level scaled, or at least at the same time, but having a good reason to return to the barrens is just as important I would argue as being able to go back and feel like you are more powerful.

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One of the reasons I think a revamp is coming is that I doubt they will have new players continue to go through BFA and SL. Especially not SL if we go back to Azeroth. I really don’t think that SL story will lead to 10.0 the way that BFA did to SL.

So new players will need an expansion to level in that actually takes place on Azeroth, but isn’t Endgame yet. Hence revamp 10-60 and new zones like Dragon Isles for endgame leveling.

I have been saying this for a while, and it bears repeating. Making BfA the 10-50 levelling worked wonder for Shadowlands because BfA just needed a few tweaks to make it a really tightly written levelling experience that explains a bunch of small stuff.
Shadowlands meanwhile will really struggle to do the same. Sending new players straight from Exile's reach to Icecrown to partake in a ritual to enter the Shadowlands is far too big a leap to make natural.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Most mysteries are interesting solely because they are mysteries. Especially when they exist for world-building purposes rather than narrative.

There's a reason we don't know what happened to the Entwives or the Dwemer.

Yup. Nothing more efficient in making your world feel smaller and less mystical than explaining and revealing everything.

And let's be real, with Bethesda, what happened to the Dwemer is going to be revealed sooner rather than later.