Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't know, an obscure prophecy with an uncertain outcome, a grim fate to avoid and destiny to defy are bread and butter of fantasy settings, iirc last time a prophecy was involved a Naaru was shattered and it didn't go as forseen, honestly I wouldn't read too much into it other than more artificial stakes/set-up for cosmic resets

Its been only recently prophecies haven't been up to what they claim they will be so there might be a twist.

[Sondrelk]

Now that I'm back from the funny farm, I'm kind of morbidly impressed that Blizzard made and then fucked up the same weird self-fulfilling prophecy story twice, nearly in the same way. First with the Aspects being prophesied and obligated to stop Deathwing, which was only pertinent because Deathwing was empowered in the first place, rewarding them with sterility if they did so. Now we've got another go of it where the First Ones predict a situation where one of their templates goes rogue and so created the circumstances for his defeat, which was only the case because they didn't double-check two of their models - Arbiter and Atonement Specialist, for design flaws.

I was under the impression that the whole Aspects being destined to defeat Deathwing thing was a bit of a generalization, and that they were actually just meant to stop the Hour of Twilight, which in this case just happened to be spearheaded by Deathwing.
Ideally all 5 aspects would have banded together to defeat the Old Gods, not 4 + a lost orc against an insane dragon.


Also, on an aside, after some thinking I really do find myself thinking that my theory might be the best fit overall.
Zovaal starts by being the Arbiter, he slowly starts suspecting the First Ones might have had some sinister plans for him.
Over time these thoughts become obsessive, so he decides to see if he can get his fellow Pantheon to help him get to Zereth Mortis so he can figure out what those plans were. After getting rebuffed, possibly one, possibly several times, he eventually decides to take the sigils by force.
He gets imprisoned and slowly becomes more evil, and suddenly he has become the traitor he was prophecised to be, whether he wanted to or not.
At that point whether he knew he was meant to betray his siblings or not before he was imprisoned is mostly inconsequential seeing as his reaction would probably be teh same once he gets to Zereth Mortis, burn it all down and create a new world where everyone suffers like he did.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Maybe it is possible to deviate from the Fatescribes story as long as the events take place in some capacity. Although again, who knows on that front. Starting to wonder a lot about if this is what Sylvanas was about to talk about with Anduin until he interrupted her. The shocking face during Vol'jin choosing her was not about Mueh'zala but the fact Zovaal told her it was written in her Fatescribes story to happen which set into motion her existential dread that led her to finally give in and do Zovaal's bidding as Zovaal probably only gave that as the only part of her Fatescribes story.

Obviously how Zovaal got access to her Fatescribes Story is a conundrum but I mean Nathrezim.

[Revamp Man]

“Well we had sylvanas commit genocide and turn against the jailer at the last moment and the fans think that our writing is garbage how do we fix this Steve?…Steve? God damn it Steve what did I say about fucking your pillow in the office!!?”

Steve smirks, “well it doesn’t count if it’s in the conference room.”

“HOLY SHIT!!! You greasy jackass you just gave me an idea…Sylvanas being an evil bitch doesn’t count if she’s not in control. HURRY WRITE THAT SHES BEEN MIND CONTROLLED SINCE ICC!!”

Steve thrusts once more into his crusty pillow oozing out soaghettios from the broken bag inside before tossing a notebook at the leader “page 32, story number 5, just replace Thrall with the Jailer.”

[ExiHext]

Where does that prophecy thing suddenly come from? Is ist from the raid (which I've never done)? Somewhere I can read about it?

[Makabreska]

Where does that prophecy thing suddenly come from? Is ist from the raid (which I've never done)? Somewhere I can read about it?

I think that's all.

[ExiHext]

I think that's all.

That's where they get all that predetermination thing from? Guys, your fantasy is running wild. Because they placed the waystones they foresaw everything that's going on with Zovaal? That's a bit of a stretch. It's the same like with the Sylvanas loyalist options in BfA: people are reading way too much into it and overestimate Blizzard's storytelling...which is funny because most people in this thread seem to find SL's plot bad.

[Jokubas]

I don't have the aversion to chosen ones or prophecies that a lot of others have these days, but I recognize that things like this waystone thing is where that comes from. I liked the implication much better that this was simply extremely ancient stuff leftover from a civilization that, for whatever reason (perhaps because of some connection we have to Azeroth), made us the one-in-a-million key to this problem. The idea that the waystones were built for us all along means that there is no extensive past for us to maybe one day explore. All that potential has been cut off for no real benefit. Also, it's self-fulfilling in a way that's just silly. The only reason why Jaina and Thrall and Baine and Anduin aren't also part of that destiny to save the Shadowlands is because they weren't allowed to activate the waystone... because they weren't deemed to be part of the destiny, but if they had been allowed to activate it, they would definitely have been doing the same things as us to save the Shadowlands and thus been part of the destiny.

[Super Dickmann]

I was under the impression that the whole Aspects being destined to defeat Deathwing thing was a bit of a generalization, and that they were actually just meant to stop the Hour of Twilight, which in this case just happened to be spearheaded by Deathwing.
Ideally all 5 aspects would have banded together to defeat the Old Gods, not 4 + a lost orc against an insane dragon.

The only reason there was an Hour of Twilight in the form they prevented is because Deathwing was empowered. If Neltharion wasn't made Earthwarder the Old Gods inhabiting the earth wouldn't be able to whisper to him and even if they could because he really happened to like sitting in caves or whatever, a regular proto-drake, however exceptional would neither be impactful nor even have the lifespan to matter. The Aspects were empowered to prevent a problem that only arose because the Aspects are empowered. Tyr is a moron and Odyn was right.

This is notwithstanding that not only was this not the Hour of Twilight, nor was what we saw in the Endtime dungeon (also caused by empowering Deathwing, by the by) that'd probably be the vision of Ny'alotha by N'zoth or that this power of precognition never came up before or since. Or that the Hour of Twilight was a term that didn't exist until Cho'gall wrote it in the Twilight Canticle, something he did on another planet. Anyway, enough about how Cata's main story was crap, back to how SL's main story is crap.

Also, on an aside, after some thinking I really do find myself thinking that my theory might be the best fit overall.
Zovaal starts by being the Arbiter, he slowly starts suspecting the First Ones might have had some sinister plans for him.
Over time these thoughts become obsessive, so he decides to see if he can get his fellow Pantheon to help him get to Zereth Mortis so he can figure out what those plans were. After getting rebuffed, possibly one, possibly several times, he eventually decides to take the sigils by force.
He gets imprisoned and slowly becomes more evil, and suddenly he has become the traitor he was prophecised to be, whether he wanted to or not.
At that point whether he knew he was meant to betray his siblings or not before he was imprisoned is mostly inconsequential seeing as his reaction would probably be teh same once he gets to Zereth Mortis, burn it all down and create a new world where everyone suffers like he did.

While plausible, the most frustrating element of this expansion is how much it misses virtually every chance to go somewhere with the seeds it plants. Where something like BFA's Mists 2.0 premise was conceptually poor from start to finish in what it tried to accomplish and things like the Cata narrative with Thrall I bitched about was plainly an incoherent afterthought compared to the exponentially better executed revamp stories, SL is a different beast. It plays with big, classic sci-fi/fantasy ideas, teases them and then completely squanders them, backtracking its concepts to go with the most rote route possible or as with the Arbiter being turned off or the Jailer's exile just sort of leaves these things hanging in the hopes no one will notice.

Under the reading of the Blue Man as being upset about determinism and taking a comic book nihilist approach where the only true choice is the one that eliminates everything his interactions become more interesting. It turns him reacting to Sylvanas shooting him with a 'pity' as being genuine, with the chains of mortality referenced being the impression that any choice made has inherent meaning when all of it is predetermined. And the reason why he drags Anduin along for him to witness his victory, despite the fact that he's a sockpuppet is because to him whether someone is mind-controlled or not makes no difference, since the illusion of choice is a deterministic product anyway.

Setting aside how appropriate such a character is for this game in the first place, it's moot because the staff lack both the writing chops or even the intention to properly go with this angle, instead flirting with the ideas and then leaving them hanging. See how they preemptively cut out any chance of the Eternal Ones dealing with how they're rote models come out of an assembly line by cutting them out of the plot while the bland as dishwater Azeroth cast we carry with us like a malignant tumor have no reaction to being in what's basically a cosmic photoshop application.

[Revamp Man]

Is it bad I just want MoP with the current systems of m+ and mythic raiding?

I mean let’s say 5,10,15 gets you the old CM rewards

Dailies replaced by emissaries and WQ

Not even that specific story but you have an expansion kick off with one plot and slowly the zones are linked if even by just a bit and the raids are attached to them and they are attached to each other
Vaults was connected to ToT
HoF was connected to ToES
Siege had a slow work up through multiple quest lines and it wasn’t some garbage twist that was actually super obvious

Give me my damn skill capped WW with fun utility that was 100% underestimated

Give me a story where a giant bug boss or even an old god makes sense

[Sondrelk]

The only reason there was an Hour of Twilight in the form they prevented is because Deathwing was empowered. If Neltharion wasn't made Earthwarder the Old Gods inhabiting the earth wouldn't be able to whisper to him and even if they could because he really happened to like sitting in caves or whatever, a regular proto-drake, however exceptional would neither be impactful nor even have the lifespan to matter. The Aspects were empowered to prevent a problem that only arose because the Aspects are empowered. Tyr is a moron and Odyn was right.

This is notwithstanding that not only was this not the Hour of Twilight, nor was what we saw in the Endtime dungeon (also caused by empowering Deathwing, by the by) that'd probably be the vision of Ny'alotha by N'zoth or that this power of precognition never came up before or since. Or that the Hour of Twilight was a term that didn't exist until Cho'gall wrote it in the Twilight Canticle, something he did on another planet. Anyway, enough about how Cata's main story was crap, back to how SL's main story is crap.



While plausible, the most frustrating element of this expansion is how much it misses virtually every chance to go somewhere with the seeds it plants. Where something like BFA's Mists 2.0 premise was conceptually poor from start to finish in what it tried to accomplish and things like the Cata narrative with Thrall I bitched about was plainly an incoherent afterthought compared to the exponentially better executed revamp stories, SL is a different beast. It plays with big, classic sci-fi/fantasy ideas, teases them and then completely squanders them, backtracking its concepts to go with the most rote route possible or as with the Arbiter being turned off or the Jailer's exile just sort of leaves these things hanging in the hopes no one will notice.

Under the reading of the Blue Man as being upset about determinism and taking a comic book nihilist approach where the only true choice is the one that eliminates everything his interactions become more interesting. It turns him reacting to Sylvanas shooting him with a 'pity' as being genuine, with the chains of mortality referenced being the impression that any choice made has inherent meaning when all of it is predetermined. And the reason why he drags Anduin along for him to witness his victory, despite the fact that he's a sockpuppet is because to him whether someone is mind-controlled or not makes no difference, since the illusion of choice is a deterministic product anyway.

Setting aside how appropriate such a character is for this game in the first place, it's moot because the staff lack both the writing chops or even the intention to properly go with this angle, instead flirting with the ideas and then leaving them hanging. See how they preemptively cut out any chance of the Eternal Ones dealing with how they're rote models come out of an assembly line by cutting them out of the plot while the bland as dishwater Azeroth cast we carry with us like a malignant tumor have no reaction to being in what's basically a cosmic photoshop application.

Still, I cannot remember the aspect prophecy ever being directly mentioned ad being about defeating Deathwing, rather just being about preventing the return of the old gods, which again, just happened to include Deathwing.

It was a dumb decision to place Deathwing so close to the Old God's, but I don't think this is the actual intention behind the prophecy to stop the Hour of Twilight.


And yeah, the Zovaal being angry at his predetermined villainy would be interesting, though I heavily agree that it isn't exactly the kind of story WoW can handle, or at least not this rushed.
It might have worked better if this was built up over a long period of time, but as it stands it will probably be little more than a neat twist that cheapens the overall story.

I am willing to wait until we in know for sure what the deal with the prototype pantheon is though. Worst case it really does just end up being a random boss in the raid, but it might get some buildup, the final raids do tend to at least have more buildup to individual bosses than the rest.

[Nyel]

Is it bad I just want MoP with the current systems of m+ and mythic raiding?

Not at all, I think most players remember MoP fondly.

I didn't appreciate MoP that much back then, but now I think it has been the last really great expansion. While Legion was outstanding, MoP just had some magic to it which Legion lacked. I think the entire cosmic space stuff is what threw me off in Legion later on. MoP was reasonably grounded and still made sense. And wow, that expansion was just very, very good.

[Alanar]

Not at all, I think most players remember MoP fondly.

I didn't appreciate MoP that much back then, but now I think it has been the last really great expansion. While Legion was outstanding, MoP just had some magic to it which Legion lacked. I think the entire cosmic space stuff is what threw me off in Legion later on. MoP was reasonably grounded and still made sense. And wow, that expansion was just very, very good.

Mop was just interesting, I think it was a combination of things that made it what people remember. The fact that it was sold as a serene land and grounded. People hated that idea, but turned out to be a very diverse expansion that still managed to link dungeons, raids to current story, which We havent seen much in a good way.

New talent tree that gave alot of new options and the setup was new. Challange mode was new and refreshing. Sure mop had something there that was truly helping to feel connected and stay grounded at the same time.

I dont want to say this is another example of things were new so that is why it was fun, but partly it is ofc.

Legion as I am reading gets the same praise for no reason what so ever. Legion introduced borrowed power which was fun and enganging first time you did it, second and third time it isnt. Because it was new and fresh.

The obvious thing is, we like the expansion that added new things, but every other expansion and did the same under a differnt skin gets hate.

How many times do we have to hear wrath, mop, legion was good?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I am willing to wait until we in know for sure what the deal with the prototype pantheon is though. Worst case it really does just end up being a random boss in the raid, but it might get some buildup, the final raids do tend to at least have more buildup to individual bosses than the rest.

It could be silly to, combinations of each eternal one instead of just prototype ones. a Jailer+Primus combo and so on.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

"Once a fatescribe entrusted with Korthia’s countless secrets, the Mawsworn seized Roh-Kalo and bound him to the Jailer’s will. With Torghast’s power at his disposal, Roh-Kalo seeks to author a new fate for the Shadowlands." - Roh-Kalo's Dungeon Journal entry.

Did he succeed or not?

[Nyel]

"Once a fatescribe entrusted with Korthia’s countless secrets, the Mawsworn seized Roh-Kalo and bound him to the Jailer’s will. With Torghast’s power at his disposal, Roh-Kalo seeks to author a new fate for the Shadowlands." - Roh-Kalo's Dungeon Journal entry.

Did he succeed or not?

Shadowlands is going to end with patch 9.2.

As it is written so it shall be done. I think he did succeed.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Again, Zovaal wouldn't go to Zereth Mortis if Roh-Kalo didn't succeed in changing the Prophecy. Especially if the Waystone Activation in the Intro was his cue that something was amiss and he learned about the Maw Walkers and the Prophecy of the Fate of the Shadowlands.

He would have zero reasons to go to Zereth Mortis until the Prophecy has changed in his favor.

[Revamp Man]

Not at all, I think most players remember MoP fondly.

I didn't appreciate MoP that much back then, but now I think it has been the last really great expansion. While Legion was outstanding, MoP just had some magic to it which Legion lacked. I think the entire cosmic space stuff is what threw me off in Legion later on. MoP was reasonably grounded and still made sense. And wow, that expansion was just very, very good.

The grinding hurt it but I love it

[shoc]

"Once a fatescribe entrusted with Korthia’s countless secrets, the Mawsworn seized Roh-Kalo and bound him to the Jailer’s will. With Torghast’s power at his disposal, Roh-Kalo seeks to author a new fate for the Shadowlands." - Roh-Kalo's Dungeon Journal entry.

Did he succeed or not?

Oh my god they are going to overwrite reality with fan fiction for real.

[Varx]

So the zovaal fight makes it look like Azeroth is the center of the universe, as in all of reality is powered and shaped with her as the power source.

Gives more creadbility to the whole, zereth = Azeroth theory.

Also makes sense why we were able to activate the first one keystones in the maw and korthia.

Wonder how this will tie into the dragon isles for 10.0. there's probably a super Uber titan facility there.


Maybe that's where uldorus is? And is where we'll meet Azeroth herself?

Just like how Antorus held Argus. Perhaps Uldorus holds Azeroth .

For those that don't know, Uldorus was one of the titan facilities that the maiden in the heart chamber started listing when it was malfunctioning.