Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[draugril]

Add the dimension that Sylvanas had to commit genocide, which every agreed was out of character, in order to give her character development: From her becoming warchief to now, she effectively BECAME the character she already was, before the genocide: That's like if you took captain america, have him commit genocide, then take him on a journey to learn that genocide was wrong. Marvel comics does that sort of thing & is also the reason no one buys marvel comics anymore

I recall a few years ago Captain America being revealed as an agent of Hydra. I'm sure they did some appropriately Marvely hand-waving to have it make sense in universe, and had it serving some sort of underlying theme... but that doesn't matter. It misses the point of the character. People don't read Captain America to see this paragon corrupted. It doesn't matter if the story you're telling is the greatest story ever told: that's not why people read about that character. So I didn't read it. I had an have no interest in that kind of story in that context.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ty-council/261

Council is live.

[Hitei]

Because, that's what the entire expansion is about? The name is literally Battle For Azeroth. She is the one that holds the entire story together, yet you argue that she is not the focus of it...

Zandalari- They had negotiations about joining the Horde and Talanji was on her way to Orgrimmar because of Sylvanas. It was Sylvanas who ordered Talanji to be liberated from the Stockades. So yeah, they are in the Horde because of Sylvanas.

She doesn't hold anything together. You could have removed her entirely after Undercity and just had the Horde trying to figure out how to hold out against the vengeful Alliance in the wake of the war of the thorns and battle for Lordaeron and zero storybeats would have changed, because literally none of the story is actually about fucking Sylvanas and she isn't ever a focus. Even the handful of direct decisions she made (Baine, Derek, sending assassins after Saurfang) could have been casually left up to Nathanos, since he had to do the logistics of most of the shit she tacitly "led" anyway. With zero alteration to any actual quest other than that you hand them in to him rather than her on the boat.

If a character can be removed from a plot with exceedingly little change to a handful of things, hint hint, they were not a focus.

It was Sylvanas who ordered Delaryn Summermoon and Sira Moonwarden to be risen as undead, to serve her.

Sylvanas ordered Derek Proudmoore to be risen and used as a secret weapon against his family in Boralus.

Sylvanas ordered for Ashvane to be broken out of Tol Dagor, because she had interest in using her.

Sylvanas ordered Saurfang to be tracked down and killed, when she learned that he escaped the Stockades.

Sylvanas was the one ordering Nathanos to kill Zelling, after Derek escaped.

Sylvanas ordered the arrest of Baine(and she wanted to execute him).

Sylvanas struck a deal with Azshara.

Sylvanas was the reason for the entire "loyalists vs traitors" fiasco.

That's what, the entire War Campaign?

Who in your opinion was a focus of the BFA story then? I'm really curious who do you think was more important to the story than her.

Saurfang. Jaina and the Kul Tirans. Talanji/Rastakhan/Zul and the Zandalari. Azshara.

Are you also going to pretend Illidan was the focus of BC because somewhere in the background he was giving orders, despite the fact that he actually shows up like two or three times before his death? Or that Legion was focused on Sargeras because literally everything happeneing was under his orders even though he only actually showed up in the last cinematic of the final raid?

You're trying to reduce the Horde (and Horde only) war campaign to Sylvanas giving orders when 90% of the time you don't even seen these orders being given, or they are 1-2 lines in a 10 part quest chapter where none of the quests have anything to do with Sylvanas. Zelling's storyline was not about fucking Sylvanas trying to have him killed, it was about Zelling trying to reconcile with undeath and his new identity. Derek's storyline was not about Sylvanas' plan, where her entire involvement is a couple lines of dialogue before the storyline--it is about Baine's defection and the culmination of Zelling's storyline about trying to figure out who he is, and then about the Proudmoores reuniting and Jaina letting go of her hatred. Ashvane's storyline was not about Sylvanas trying to recruit Ashvane, there is one small transitional section after the whole Alliance storyline, about you, Rexxar and Valtrois trying to break her out so she'll side with the Horde. Azshara's storyline was not about Sylvanas getting Azshara to attack the Alliance and Horde for her, it was about Azshara trapping the Alliance and Horde in Nazjatar to try and get them to inadvertently release N'zoth. Delaryn and Sira's storyline was not about Sylvanas, it was about the fallen Night Elves' varying reactions to being forsaken by Elune and forced into undeath. Saurfang's storyline wasn't about Sylvanas trying to hunt down Saurfang, it was about Saurfang trying to fight back against Sylvanas and figure out his path forward.

Again, you are proving my point. You think Sylvanas was the focus of any of these storylines that aren't about her, because you have her rent free in your head and you are focusing on her. When in reality she is barely present or only implicitly involved in pretty much everything in your list, not the focus. Do you actually understand what focus is? We might have a fundamental problem here because you seem to be confusing quite literally secondary involvement with being the focus.

[Ersula]

If they wanted to show this new Sylvanas as an amalgam of the banshee & the ranger general, one eye should be blue & one be red. It would make her new appearence a little more interesting; its frankly pretty drab.

Also, am I alone still being annoyed by this logic applied to the concept of agency? The devs assured everyone she'd be held responsible, but if someone is missing a big chunk of their soul, being morally upstanding & good actually becomes impossible, so I think she *shouldn't* be held responsible for that. Being expected to behave in a way you're actually incapable of in your current state? That doesn't make sense.

Between having both soul-splitting & domination magic & refusing to clarify how which works & when, how is anyone calling this good writing? It's sloppy.

[Tyris Flare]

If they wanted to show this new Sylvanas as an amalgam of the banshee & the ranger general, one eye should be blue & one be red. It would make her new appearence a little more interesting; its frankly pretty drab.

Also, am I alone still being annoyed by this logic applied to the concept of agency? The devs assured everyone she'd be held responsible, but if someone is missing a big chunk of their soul, being morally upstanding & good actually becomes impossible, so I think she *shouldn't* be held responsible for that. Being expected to behave in a way you're actually incapable of in your current state? That doesn't make sense.

Between having both soul-splitting & domination magic & refusing to clarify how which works & when, how is anyone calling this good writing? It's sloppy.

I mean yeah, it's a huge copout. Fairly normal for a lot of fantasy, but this type of stuff just leads to boring characterization.

No gods, no angels/demons, no souls, no handwaving - just sentient beings living with the consequences of their actions. There's a reason why SOIAF and early seasons of Game of Thrones were so compelling

[Hitei]

If they wanted to show this new Sylvanas as an amalgam of the banshee & the ranger general, one eye should be blue & one be red. It would make her new appearence a little more interesting; its frankly pretty drab.

Also, am I alone still being annoyed by this logic applied to the concept of agency? The devs assured everyone she'd be held responsible, but if someone is missing a big chunk of their soul, being morally upstanding & good actually becomes impossible, so I think she *shouldn't* be held responsible for that. Being expected to behave in a way you're actually incapable of in your current state? That doesn't make sense.

Between having both soul-splitting & domination magic & refusing to clarify how which works & when, how is anyone calling this good writing? It's sloppy.

She isn't incapable of behaving. She actively chose not to. Again, just because you got drunk doesn't suddenly mean none of the stupid shit you did was your fault. Losing the morally upstanding and good part of you doesn't suddenly make you a mass murderer. Something like 0.5% to 4% (depending on age group) of the human population has antisocial personality disorder (read: are actual sociopaths). Most of those people are not serial killers who will casually murder other humans for their own ends... they are just the people in your workplace who are total assholes and will throw you under the bus, or are manipulative, or are only interested in looking out for themselves.

She lost her conscience and then decided that freedom was worth the slaughter farmsteads, using bioweapons and burning whole cities of people alive.

[Jokubas]

Honestly, I could see a story like Shadowlands working... if they had willfully been building to it for two decades.

What frustrates me is how I actually do believe this plot has been set up (not in any detail, certainly), but I still agree because I don't feel any of those point have been leveraged in any meaningful way at all. The quick example I use is that there were CDev answers after Wrath of the Lich King that heavily implied there was a force behind the Lich King that we had yet to meet, an idea that, intentionally or not, became the Jailer. The problem is that it hasn't been elaborated on at all. I was legitimately excited for this expansion, I was legitimately excited to see the story re-contextualize those things, but it hasn't done that at all.

What we get instead of something that feels like the culmination to anything is an arc that feels like pretty much any other expansion. It doesn't feel like the Jailer has done anything prior to our arrival. There's a lot of complaints about the story's refusal to explain anything about the Jailer's plan, and this seems to go backward as much as forward. How he got to where he was when we arrived is equally glossed over, which just reinforces the feeling that he didn't do anything before we got there and we're arriving at the same time we do for any arc.

I think there are two ways the story could have approached him instead that aren't major differences but would have had a major effect on his portrayal.

1) The Jailer starts the expansion still chained. In fact, we may not even see him beyond the silhouette from the trailer. The gimmick here is to keep him as a looming threat, but still very powerful through the pawns he has planted everywhere. Something we can't put a face to but something we want to keep at bay. To show this threat and not just tell it, the end of 9.0 or 9.1 would involve his release, but his release itself would devastate the Shadowlands. Show him as a god who needed to be locked away by having his very presence, not some loophole, start to spread the influence of the Maw. This doesn't solve the past issue very much, but I think it would have done a better job of making him feel powerful, and keeping him faceless (but not voiceless) could have made him feel more ethereal and inhuman.

2) The Jailer doesn't just start the expansion released, he starts the expansion already having conquered the Shadowlands. Maybe it's not immediately obvious, you could have it where most realms are more like Revendreth where it's been dominated but the average denizen hasn't realized it. In this case, the Archon doing obviously terrible things could be intentional, proof that the Jailer has won. Then, as we quest through the realms, we learn things from the characters we meet, like Kleia and Draka, how the Jailer has been slowly conquering the Shadowlands under our noses for the past few expansions. That way the Jailer would stand out from other villains as one who has already won (just looking for the key to Zereth Mortis to make his rule permanent), and instead of just learning about the Shadowlands in a vacuum, we would be learning about it in the context of how it related to plot points in the living world.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The only problem is the expansion's story just decided to end quickly(I'm sure it will be resolved as best as it can) but I don't think when SL was announced it would turn out the way its going to be. I don't really mind how the Jailer is the source of the Lich King themes, I really don't I think its explained well enough. I think we won't get as much info on the SL as I thought we would.

Edit: For people making assumptions, I'm not angry, just explaining how I feel without acting ragey about it.

[Lamoth]

I do think that some form of vague blueprint for this expansion was there at the end of Lich King.
I also think that they probably originally planned for it to happen faster.
Both MoP and WoD feel a bit forced. Maybe originally the plan was to go straight to legion seamed expansion after cataclysn and then to shadowlands.

[bagina]

If they wanted to show this new Sylvanas as an amalgam of the banshee & the ranger general, one eye should be blue & one be red. It would make her new appearence a little more interesting; its frankly pretty drab.

Also, am I alone still being annoyed by this logic applied to the concept of agency? The devs assured everyone she'd be held responsible, but if someone is missing a big chunk of their soul, being morally upstanding & good actually becomes impossible, so I think she *shouldn't* be held responsible for that. Being expected to behave in a way you're actually incapable of in your current state? That doesn't make sense.

Between having both soul-splitting & domination magic & refusing to clarify how which works & when, how is anyone calling this good writing? It's sloppy.

Believe me, you're not the only one I'm absolutely disgusted by the whole thing.

[Jokubas]

I don't say this lightly, but I think this Svlvanas cutscene is about the best I could hope for. Blizzard had really backed themselves into a corner with her and there's pretty much no real great way they could have resolved this.

This cutscene manages to at least try to balance on a razor's edge. Sylvanas' actions are straight up referred to as unforgivable, she is not absolved from them by being magically considered another person since Warcraft III, but neither is the original, heroic, sympathetic version of herself retconned away.

I still would have preferred many things being different up until this point, but since they didn't happen that way, this at least manages to acknowledge what did. My biggest concern at this point is how this works going forward. Part of how we got here was a failure to keep the subversion of stereotypes that define certain characters or groups. The orcs look evil, they keep doing evil, even though they're not supposed to be. The undead look evil, they keep doing evil, even though they broke away. I'm bracing myself for Sylvanas or the Forsaken to fall back on old habits and the story to go back to not acknowledging the problem.

Also, I think this could have gone over better without any changes to the cutscene itself if, again, Zovaal was handled better. The idea that he's this sadistic about breaking heroes to use as his pawns is actually pretty terrifying, but I just don't feel he's earned his presence or role enough for that to have the impact I think it's meant to.

[crusadernero]

I do think that some form of vague blueprint for this expansion was there at the end of Lich King.
I also think that they probably originally planned for it to happen faster.
Both MoP and WoD feel a bit forced. Maybe originally the plan was to go straight to legion seamed expansion after cataclysn and then to shadowlands.

You know, it would have made more sense if Shadowlands happend right after WotLK.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I do think that some form of vague blueprint for this expansion was there at the end of Lich King.
I also think that they probably originally planned for it to happen faster.
Both MoP and WoD feel a bit forced. Maybe originally the plan was to go straight to legion seamed expansion after cataclysn and then to shadowlands.

I'm not gonna say thats true cause I don't know if they planned that far. I really don't know but we never did find out the origins of Frostmourne and the LK helm back then(something about Dreadlords but I think that was it).

[Jokubas]

You know, it would have made more sense if Shadowlands happend right after WotLK.

You're gonna have to take my word for it because I've really lost track of where I've put things these days, but I actually had a theory with citations that the general idea of Shadowlands was going to follow up on Cataclysm, with Cataclysm filling a sort of Battle for Azeroth bridging role.

The theory involved a lot of stuff after Wrath and around Cataclysm where Blizzard was open in lore interviews about Sylvanas following in the Lich King's footsteps, the free will issue that was removed after beta, and the implications about a secret power behind the Lich King. It also involved claims that Garrosh was not originally intended to be a villain.

Basically, my expectation was that Cataclysm would still mostly be Cataclysm, but instead of Garrosh being the bad apple it was going to be Sylvanas (which is honestly still kind of there with her deploying the plague on what was a neutral army at the time and Garrosh being the one to have standards about it and with the Frostwolves refusing to reinforce her for having crossed a line), and she would be acting suspicious throughout the plot similar to Battle for Azeroth.

This would then culminate in the following expansion with a story where the force behind the Lich King was revealed. I think there's a good chance that, at the time, this force was planned to be Yogg-saron or N'Zoth, though (the latter of which would tie in neatly with the fact that Cataclysm blatantly had stuff about Azshara and N'Zoth excised from it). I'm fairly certain Zovaal as we know him is a recent creation.

I really do think the story would have worked better then, both overall and including Sylvanas. The quicker turnover from the ominous loose ends of Wrath of the Lich King to the payoff would have made them feel more directly connected instead of a decade's late retcon.

I'm not gonna say thats true cause I don't know if they planned that far. I really don't know but we never did find out the origins of Frostmourne and the LK helm back then(something about Dreadlords but I think that was it).

I've said this before but I'll say it again just so my post is as clear as possible. I don't think they planned Shadowlands a decade in advance. I think Shadowlands is built on ideas that they wrote over a decade ago and then filed away, before realizing they had an opening to dust off and rewrite. I also think they failed at making it feel like they had any seeds planted for it, which is a huge shame when I think they actually did.

[crusadernero]

You're gonna have to take my word for it because I've really lost track of where I've put things these days, but I actually had a theory with citations that the general idea of Shadowlands was going to follow up on Cataclysm, with Cataclysm filling a sort of Battle for Azeroth bridging role.

The theory involved a lot of stuff after Wrath and around Cataclysm where Blizzard was open in lore interviews about Sylvanas following in the Lich King's footsteps, the free will issue that was removed after beta, and the implications about a secret power behind the Lich King. It also involved claims that Garrosh was not originally intended to be a villain.

Basically, my expectation was that Cataclysm would still mostly be Cataclysm, but instead of Garrosh being the bad apple it was going to be Sylvanas (which is honestly still kind of there with her deploying the plague on what was a neutral army at the time and Garrosh being the one to have standards about it and with the Frostwolves refusing to reinforce her for having crossed a line), and she would be acting suspicious throughout the plot similar to Battle for Azeroth.

This would then culminate in the following expansion with a story where the force behind the Lich King was revealed. I think there's a good chance that, at the time, this force was planned to be Yogg-saron or N'Zoth, though (the latter of which would tie in neatly with the fact that Cataclysm blatantly had stuff about Azshara and N'Zoth excised from it). I'm fairly certain Zovaal as we know him is a recent creation.

I really do think the story would have worked better then, both overall and including Sylvanas. The quicker turnover from the ominous loose ends of Wrath of the Lich King to the payoff would have made them feel more directly connected instead of a decade's late retcon.


I've said this before but I'll say it again just so my post is as clear as possible. I don't think they planned Shadowlands a decade in advance. I think Shadowlands is built on ideas that they wrote over a decade ago and then filed away, before realizing they had an opening to dust off and rewrite. I also think they failed at making it feel like they had any seeds planted for it, which is a huge shame when I think they actually did.

Yeah, that sounds alot more plausible than what we have gotten out of SL.

To be honest, the jailer does nothing for me. Im saying that as a long time Warcraft fan who has played the RTS when it launched and everything since then. Even I, who knows all about Sylvanas, Arthas & the lich king find the jailer a villain who falls flat. As you said, these are storylines and plotlines that are over a decade old. By this point, its over already. It would have made much more sense to go after the jailer(or whatever force that was behind LK, cause as you said the jailer might be a new idea) after Wotlk than after BfA.

Everything feels so disjointed and all over the place. I do wonder what a new wow player(if there are any?) might think of the jailer, cause myself as a long time wow player thinks he is nothing even though he is the force behind the lich king.

It certainly doesnt feel that everything that has happend over the last decade has led to this, thats for sure.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I've said this before but I'll say it again just so my post is as clear as possible. I don't think they planned Shadowlands a decade in advance. I think Shadowlands is built on ideas that they wrote over a decade ago and then filed away, before realizing they had an opening to dust off and rewrite. I also think they failed at making it feel like they had any seeds planted for it, which is a huge shame when I think they actually did.

Something changed in SL(And this isn't meant to sound cynical or doomer) somewhere down the line. My pet theory is its slightly related to covanents and reaction. I should again clarify I'm enjoying SL still despite things.

[Ersula]

She isn't incapable of behaving. She actively chose not to. Again, just because you got drunk doesn't suddenly mean none of the stupid shit you did was your fault. Losing the morally upstanding and good part of you doesn't suddenly make you a mass murderer. Something like 0.5% to 4% (depending on age group) of the human population has antisocial personality disorder (read: are actual sociopaths). Most of those people are not serial killers who will casually murder other humans for their own ends... they are just the people in your workplace who are total assholes and will throw you under the bus, or are manipulative, or are only interested in looking out for themselves.

She lost her conscience and then decided that freedom was worth the slaughter farmsteads, using bioweapons and burning whole cities of people alive.

But they do do that: That's why there's a difference between a mental institution & a prison. Not to mention this isn't a case of a chemical imbalance, Uther is talking to this piece of soul like its a fully-realized person. They even acknowledge this when Uther says how insidious it is: If someone roofied you with a drug cocktail & you murdered someone you absolutely wouldn't be at fault, & that's the closest analogy I can draw from. People who drink & drive are punished because they chose to drink but Sylvanas' loss of cohesion wasn't her choice.

- - - Updated - - -

You're gonna have to take my word for it because I've really lost track of where I've put things these days, but I actually had a theory with citations that the general idea of Shadowlands was going to follow up on Cataclysm, with Cataclysm filling a sort of Battle for Azeroth bridging role.

You guys understand that the people writing the story then & the people writing the story now are two entirely different groups on people, right? None of this was planned.

[Hitei]

But they do do that: That's why there's a difference between a mental institution & a prison. Not to mention this isn't a case of a chemical imbalance, Uther is talking to this piece of soul like its a fully-realized person. They even acknowledge this when Uther says how insidious it is: If someone roofied you with a drug cocktail & you murdered someone you absolutely wouldn't be at fault, & that's the closest analogy I can draw from. People who drink & drive are punished because they chose to drink but Sylvanas' loss of cohesion wasn't her choice.

Except that's not how mental institutions work. First, to not be just sent to a prison, you have to be able to prove that you were unable to understand that your actions were wrong, or unable to resist doing them. You don't just go to a mental institution because you are a loon, or a sociopath and committed a crime. You get sent there because you saw everyone as giant lizards trying to skin you alive and ended up attacking a bunch of people you didn't think were people.

Sylvanas isn't even a proper sociopath, let alone insane, the Banshee side of her has shown the capacity for regret and guilt, even split she feels bad about the actions but does them anyway. So that mental institutions exist is inconsequential. She objectively knew her actions were terrible and she was murdering people, she just felt that it was worth slaughtering innocents if it lead to being free of the cycle.

Likewise, being drugged as a defense is similarly dependent on you somehow proving you lacked the capacity for intent (you have to prove that the drugs somehow removed your ability to understand what you were doing were wrong). You're trying to sidestep her guilt by using analogies where the person becomes completely unaware, but that is not the case with Sylvanas. She was made (not even completely) uninhibited. Not roofied into an unaware state. she is fully aware, and fully chooses to do those actions.

When someone drinks and drives they are not just punished for choosing to drink. They are also charged with manslaughter or homicide if they hit and kill someone, property damage if they break something, etc. Because they are still the one who chose to do those things, even in an altered state (which again, is not even the case with Sylvanas).

All Forsaken have their morality flattened and conscience silenced by undeath to some degree. But not all of them decided they needed to murder everyone in Teldrassil and Stormwind to break the laws of life and death and live free forever. She didn't choose her loss of cohesion, she did choose to then go do a bunch of shit she knew was terrible because she felt that the ends justified the means.

[Makorus]

Except that's not how mental institutions work. First, to not be just sent to a prison, you have to be able to prove that you were unable to understand that your actions were wrong, or unable to resist doing them. You don't just go to a mental institution because you are a loon, or a sociopath and committed a crime. You get sent there because you saw everyone as giant lizards trying to skin you alive and ended up attacking a bunch of people you didn't think were people.

Sylvanas isn't even a proper sociopath, let alone insane, the Banshee side of her has shown the capacity for regret and guilt, even split she feels bad about the actions but does them anyway. So that mental institutions exist is inconsequential. She objectively knew her actions were terrible and she was murdering people, she just felt that it was worth slaughtering innocents if it lead to being free of the cycle.

Likewise, being drugged as a defense is similarly dependent on you somehow proving you lacked the capacity for intent (you have to prove that the drugs somehow removed your ability to understand what you were doing were wrong). You're trying to sidestep her guilt by using analogies where the person becomes completely unaware, but that is not the case with Sylvanas. She was made (not even completely) uninhibited. Not roofied into an unaware state. she is fully aware, and fully chooses to do those actions.

When someone drinks and drives they are not just punished for choosing to drink. They are also charged with manslaughter or homicide if they hit and kill someone, property damage if they break something, etc. Because they are still the one who chose to do those things, even in an altered state (which again, is not even the case with Sylvanas).

All Forsaken have their morality flattened and conscience silenced by undeath to some degree. But not all of them decided they needed to murder everyone in Teldrassil and Stormwind to break the laws of life and death and live free forever. She didn't choose her loss of cohesion, she did choose to then go do a bunch of shit she knew was terrible because she felt that the ends justified the means.

I mean, Forsaken are not the same as Sylvanas, because Sylvanas' soul is split while the one of normal Forsaken isn't.

It's hard to comment on how exactly the split works, therefore I feel like it's kind of pointless to argue about it.

[Jokubas]

Instead of building on their world, exploring what has already been established, they force in "original" creations

I wrote a huge thing about this, but scrapped it because I got out of control I agree so much, and had to make it more concise.

Blizzard as a whole seems to have lost its vision. There's a lot of ways you can say that's true, but in this particular case I mean creatively. It's not that they don't have skilled artists or writers, but there just doesn't seem to be a good direction for it anymore. We keep getting what feel like pet projects instead of worldbuilding (especially when it comes to playable races, as you noted), and where we need something really special we just get more of the same.

A couple of quick examples I'll try to illustrate. When the night elves were created for Warcraft III, they were praised for being a unique mix of wood elves and dark elves that was distinctly Blizzard. Then, in Legion, the nightborne backpedal on that by introducing, after all, a significantly more traditional sort of dark elves, down to even having driders. The nightborne had a great story in Legion, one of my favorite questlines ever, but it undid something that was special. I even think it was woven in pretty well and wouldn't take it away, but it's symbolic of leaning on outside ideas instead of their own.

Then there's Shadowlands, an expansion about the afterlife. There are plenty of beautiful locations in Shadowlands and the NPC models are still getting nicer. But the whole thing is just so... by the numbers. It's just a place with animals being menaced by a large man. It took skill to create it, but there's nothing imaginative about it. We go to physical places and fight physical enemies who were physically waiting for us and when we kill them they die. I'm legitimately not making this comparison on purpose (I'm not playing the game, but as a fan of the game it's referencing I was made aware of it), but look up the transition between the Exdeath and Neo-Exdeath fight in FFXIV. I believe that's a cosmic threat, something surreal that you wouldn't just find walking around normally even in a fantasy world.

Shadowlands desperately needs more things like that. The only thing that really impressed me on that level was the transition to the In-Between while taking a flight path for the first time, but it's one of the only things like that Shadowlands even does.

I don't blame anyone for going through the motions. Not everyone can be a visionary and I'd probably be in the same spot. I'm constantly underwhelmed by how my works turn out compared to what I meant for them. When it's not there you can tell, though, and the magic is fading.