Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Khaza-R]

Going back to 10.0 speculation, just want to sum up potential main character hints I see so far:

Anduin - coming back to lead the Alliance, but he is not capable to forgive himself for stuff he done while being mindcontrolled.

Talia - Anduin's love interest, potentially heir to Lorderon.

Thrall - his conversation with Draka foreshadows him becoming active again.

Tyralion/Alleria - light/void conflict (not on cosmic scale yet, but locally in Azeroth).

Baine - his pride is hurt, will see some politically impactful switch in his behaviour

Ysera and Tyrande - both are coming back I think, heavy plot on restoration of Night Elves nation. (New world tree being grown on top of the wound in Silithus?)

Azshara - I mean she is there and more powerful then before.

Don't think we'll see Sylvanas in 10.0, she'll stay in Shadowlands.

With all the above plus Calia and Scarlet Crusade hints, I think we will see 'current time' updated Azeroth zones and a lot of more localised conflict stories (not alliance Vs horde, but more internal factions Vs each other). Plus Naga attacks.

As for ending of 9.2 - we hold off Zovaal long enough so that Azeroth awakens, she phases out from planet, grabs Sargeras' sword (which cracks along the surface and reveals shiny azerite infused blade inside) and slashes Zovaal to death. Then she goes back to sleep inside the planet.

Seems pretty spot on.

Anduin - I think will come back but leave the mantle of Alliance leadership with Turalyon for a while

Thrall - I am sure he will return and become a more dominant presence on the council. He and Jaina will probably be the primary vessels to facilitate co-faction grouping in 10.0

Tyrande - Will return to help renew the Night Elves. Honestly, I don't really know where this story can go from here since they pretty much ruined Elune's lore

Bolvar - Since the Helm of Domination is destroyed there is no more Lich King. I could see Bolvar stay behind in the Shadowlands to become the "good guy" Jailer. That or perhaps we will become the guardian to the gateway to the Shadowlands. Since Calia is likely to be the de facto ruler of the Forsaken, I wouldn't mind Bolvar potentially co-leading them if they have no where else to put him

Vol'jin - If we ever get more heritage armor, I think we will see him finally become a loa. Perhaps they will finally give Rokhan a new model so he appears more official

Sylvanas - I think part of her "punishment" will be permanent exile from Azeroth. We already saw from the leaked dialogue she seems to go on a hunt to find Nathanos in the Shadowlands

[Nyel]

She's being held in reserve. As soon as we need to do "dragon stuff" again, she'll come back.

Ah I think she got too much exposure to not be used in the next expansion. If it's Dragon Isles, I'm sure Ysera will play a leading role next to Wrathion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Tyrande is almost definitely coming back, no good reason she wouldnt. Not sure about Ysera though, seemed to me lije she was said to be bound to Ardenweald and therefore unable to leave the Shadowlands.
It would also undercut the point of her daughter being important if Ysera just returned apropos of nothing.

True but Ysera is a big house name and its hard to imagine Blizz giving up on it.

[Kiivar86]

Regarding Ysera, the whole point of the realm is to recycle them so if they really want to bring her back, she's one of those characters who you wouldn't need to contrive reasons for.

That's if she went through the normal cycle, but she didn't. She got that infusion from the Winter Queen herself, who said that she was now tied to Ardenweald and would share its fate.

Though I can see them doing someway to get around that.

[draugril]

Ah I think she got too much exposure to not be used in the next expansion. If it's Dragon Isles, I'm sure Ysera will play a leading role next to Wrathion.

That would be logical. That being said, I have noted a bias against logical narrative progression. They like to shock us and dodge our expectations.

[Nyel]

That would be logical. That being said, I have noted a bias against logical narrative progression. They like to shock us and dodge our expectations.

So we get some weird random dragons no one has ever heard of instead? Allakazhastra and Boredomu?

[draugril]

So we get some weird random dragons no one has ever heard of instead? Allakazhastra and Boredomu?

I mean, we seem to get at least one new dragonflight per expansion!

If they really want to honour the fans, they can do what they did with Void Elves and convert one of the Aspects to the leader of a same-but-way-cooler version of an existing flight.

[UndedoKoleda]

She doesn't hold anything together. You could have removed her entirely after Undercity and just had the Horde trying to figure out how to hold out against the vengeful Alliance in the wake of the war of the thorns and battle for Lordaeron and zero storybeats would have changed, because literally none of the story is actually about fucking Sylvanas and she isn't ever a focus. Even the handful of direct decisions she made (Baine, Derek, sending assassins after Saurfang) could have been casually left up to Nathanos, since he had to do the logistics of most of the shit she tacitly "led" anyway. With zero alteration to any actual quest other than that you hand them in to him rather than her on the boat.

If a character can be removed from a plot with exceedingly little change to a handful of things, hint hint, they were not a focus.

Could have... should have... would have... The fact is that it was Sylvanas who did all these things. I really can't understand what is so hard to grasp here...


And about the bolded part- what kind of willywonka logic is this??? If you remove Sylvanas from BFA, you wouldn't have BFA(nor Shadowlands, for the matter), would you? The Zandalari wouldn't have joined the Horde, Jaina wouldn't have gone back to Kul'Tiras to ask them to join the Alliance, there wouldn't be an attack on Dazar'alor, the Alliance and Horde fleet wouldn't be lured to Nazjatar, Azshara wouldn't be confronted, and who knows what would have happened to N'zoth.
That's like saying if it wasn't Arthas, but Kel'Thuzad, or Nerzhul, or the Dreadlords, or his other minions, or whoever else, WC3 and TFT would have been the same.

Literally 3/4 of BFA was about Sylvanas and her motivations for doing what she did(which is a huge deal, because it lead us directly to Shadowlands). During BFA Sylvanas was talked about A LOT more than the rest of the main characters, even on these very forums.

Saurfang. Jaina and the Kul Tirans. Talanji/Rastakhan/Zul and the Zandalari. Azshara.

Are you also going to pretend Illidan was the focus of BC because somewhere in the background he was giving orders, despite the fact that he actually shows up like two or three times before his death? Or that Legion was focused on Sargeras because literally everything happeneing was under his orders even though he only actually showed up in the last cinematic of the final raid?

You're trying to reduce the Horde (and Horde only) war campaign to Sylvanas giving orders when 90% of the time you don't even seen these orders being given, or they are 1-2 lines in a 10 part quest chapter where none of the quests have anything to do with Sylvanas. Zelling's storyline was not about fucking Sylvanas trying to have him killed, it was about Zelling trying to reconcile with undeath and his new identity. Derek's storyline was not about Sylvanas' plan, where her entire involvement is a couple lines of dialogue before the storyline--it is about Baine's defection and the culmination of Zelling's storyline about trying to figure out who he is, and then about the Proudmoores reuniting and Jaina letting go of her hatred. Ashvane's storyline was not about Sylvanas trying to recruit Ashvane, there is one small transitional section after the whole Alliance storyline, about you, Rexxar and Valtrois trying to break her out so she'll side with the Horde. Azshara's storyline was not about Sylvanas getting Azshara to attack the Alliance and Horde for her, it was about Azshara trapping the Alliance and Horde in Nazjatar to try and get them to inadvertently release N'zoth. Delaryn and Sira's storyline was not about Sylvanas, it was about the fallen Night Elves' varying reactions to being forsaken by Elune and forced into undeath. Saurfang's storyline wasn't about Sylvanas trying to hunt down Saurfang, it was about Saurfang trying to fight back against Sylvanas and figure out his path forward.

Again, you are proving my point. You think Sylvanas was the focus of any of these storylines that aren't about her, because you have her rent free in your head and you are focusing on her. When in reality she is barely present or only implicitly involved in pretty much everything in your list, not the focus. Do you actually understand what focus is? We might have a fundamental problem here because you seem to be confusing quite literally secondary involvement with being the focus.

Yeah, all these are some of the major characters in the story, yet none of them is as important as Sylvanas.

First of all, none of them starts a huge story plot on their own. They all react to something that Sylvanas did. Also, she is the one person who is involved in all of those stories one way or another. Can you comprehend what is being said here?

100% of Saurfang plot in BFA is connected and a result of Sylvanas' actions. 100%. All of it.

Jaina and Kul'Tiras story also happens as an aftermath of what Sylvanas did to start the Fourth War and her bringing the Zandalari into the Horde. It is also Sylvanas who orders her val'kyr to resurrect Jaina's brother and to brainwash him(and use him against his will) against house Proudmoore.

Talanji/Rastakhan/Zul and the Zandalari- same as the above, plus the entire arc about breaking her family's deal with Bwomsamdi, who wanted the head of Sylvanas.

Azshara, again the entire story arc in BFA starts with Sylvanas breaking out Ashvane out of Tol Dagor. Then with her help she strikes a deal with Azshara, luring both the Alliance and the Horde fleet to a trap. Part of the deal was Sylvanas also giving her Xal'atath to slay N'zoth with it. So everything that happened didn't happen because of Saurfang, or Jaina, or Talanji, or whatever. It happened because of Sylvanas.

I'll repeat it for you, all these stories have one thing in common - Sylvanas. Of course they are not 100% about Sylvanas from start to end, we've never had that in WoW and we never will. If that's your merit to who the focus of the expansion is- who pops his face up in most quests, then I have no doubt that Magni is your No1. But she is the one that moves the plot in the entire expansion. In the span of one single expansion, she was the mortal(arguably, apart from Arthas) who did most damage to the nations on Azeroth. That's what makes her the focus.

[Hitei]

That's like saying if it wasn't Arthas, but Kel'Thuzad, or Nerzhul, or the Dreadlords, or his other minions, or whoever else, WC3 and TFT would have been the same.

No. What YOU are arguing is that WC3 and TFT aren't about Arthas, or Jaina, or Thrall, or Tyrande and Malfurion, and instead the """""focus""""" of those games is Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Because, and here I will outright fucking quote you:

First of all, none of them starts a huge story plot on their own. They all react to something [the Eredar] did. Also, they are the two people who are involved in all of those stories one way or another. Can you comprehend what is being said here?

What I am arguing is that Kil'jaeden and Archimonde are not the focus of WC3, and you can remove them entirely with relatively little change and have the exact same game. Because despite being the ones who order everything and cause everything (read: Sylvanas), they are largely unimportant and absent in 95% of that entire game (read: Sylvanas) and the focus is the individual characters who actually have storylines, not the people who initially triggered the third war.

B-but 100% of Arthas' plot in WC3 is a connected and a result of Kil'jaeden! 100%. All of it.

Arthas, Illidan and the Orcs' story happens as an aftermath of what Kil'jaeden did to start the Orcish invasion, and him creating the Scourge for the Legion. It is also Kil'jaeden who orders Ner'zhul to begin the undead weakening of Azeroth and who raised their first Liches.

Only obviously Arthas' story isn't actually about Kil'jaeden, who was the ordering everything. Or Ner'zhul, who was the one giving all the orders directly to Arthas and KT. It was about fucking Arthas and his growth and journey as a character.

Just like Saurfang's story isn't about Sylvanas, who is a distant antagonist. It is about Saurfang's growth and Journey. And the Proudmoore storyline isn't about Sylvanas starting a war months before on a different continent or being the one who orders Derek be raised, it is about Jaina's past conflicts and the relationship with her people. And the Zandalari questline isn't about Sylvanas (lmao @ Bwonsamdi not liking Sylvanas), it's about the Zandalari.

Do you think that because Lord of the Rings is called Lord of the Rings and Sauron is responsible for literally everything that happens, gives the orders to everyone on the evil side, is controlling the entire plot, is the person who "hAs dOnE tHe MoSt DaMAgE tO tHe (current) NaTioNs of MiDdLe EaRtH" and is the most important in the fate of the world--that the focus of the Lord of the Rings is Sauron? No. Of course it fucking isn't. It's about Frodo Baggins, and he and his allies are the focus, because they are the ones the story actually follows and scenes are about, and who go on a journey.

So I guess you have answered my previous question. That you do not understand what focus is.

[draugril]

Do you think that because Lord of the Rings is called Lord of the Rings and Sauron is responsible for literally everything that happens, gives the orders to everyone on the evil side, is controlling the entire plot, is the person who "hAs dOnE tHe MoSt DaMAgE tO tHe (current) NaTioNs of MiDdLe EaRtH" and is the most important in the fate of the world--that the focus of the Lord of the Rings is Sauron? No. Of course it fucking isn't.

Because Sylvanas is such a faceless entity as well! I don't recall her ever actually showing her face in the story, ever! Just like Sauron!

[frogboi10]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

[Khaza-R]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

Could be when BlizzCon would of been scheduled. Or E3 or Gamescon if Activision-Blizzard is even invited to participate.

[Super Dickmann]

Because Sylvanas is such a faceless entity as well! I don't recall her ever actually showing her face in the story, ever! Just like Sauron!

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

[Hitei]

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

This. Sylvanas in BfA is a plot device giving out commands, not a character.

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

Late Jan or February via some announced big info dump would be my guess.

[UndedoKoleda]

No. What YOU are arguing is that WC3 and TFT aren't about Arthas, or Jaina, or Thrall, or Tyrande and Malfurion, and instead the """""focus""""" of those games is Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Because, and here I will outright fucking quote you:


What I am arguing is that Kil'jaeden and Archimonde are not the focus of WC3, and you can remove them entirely with relatively little change and have the exact same game. Because despite being the ones who order everything and cause everything (read: Sylvanas), they are largely unimportant and absent in 95% of that entire game (read: Sylvanas) and the focus is the individual characters who actually have storylines, not the people who initially triggered the third war.



Only obviously Arthas' story isn't actually about Kil'jaeden, who was the ordering everything. Or Ner'zhul, who was the one giving all the orders directly to Arthas and KT. It was about fucking Arthas and his growth and journey as a character.

Just like Saurfang's story isn't about Sylvanas, who is a distant antagonist. It is about Saurfang's growth and Journey. And the Proudmoore storyline isn't about Sylvanas starting a war months before on a different continent or being the one who orders Derek be raised, it is about Jaina's past conflicts and the relationship with her people. And the Zandalari questline isn't about Sylvanas (lmao @ Bwonsamdi not liking Sylvanas), it's about the Zandalari.

Do you think that because Lord of the Rings is called Lord of the Rings and Sauron is responsible for literally everything that happens, gives the orders to everyone on the evil side, is controlling the entire plot, is the person who "hAs dOnE tHe MoSt DaMAgE tO tHe (current) NaTioNs of MiDdLe EaRtH" and is the most important in the fate of the world--that the focus of the Lord of the Rings is Sauron? No. Of course it fucking isn't. It's about Frodo Baggins, and he and his allies are the focus, because they are the ones the story actually follows and scenes are about, and who go on a journey.

So I guess you have answered my previous question. That you do not understand what focus is.

Wow... That reaching... I haven't seen anything like it for quite a while.

Archimonde and Kil'Jaden in WC3 and TFT are in absolutely no way comparable to Sylvanas in BFA. They were nowhere even close to being build up as much as Sylvanas, which is mentioned in the entire War Campaign, through the entire expansion. You think that she has to be the literal quest giver in every instance for her to be considered as a main character? Wrong.

She got he own Warbringer short(you know, the very ones that present the main characters in the given expansion). She is the main focus(alongside Anduin) in the Battle for Azeroth cinematic trailer. She is regularly seen in game. Sylvanas and her motivations is probably the most discussed topic along the entire BFA expansion. People got so involved with her and that story that they still hate her to this day. There were even outcries about her being the focus of two consecutive expansions, when the Shadowlands cinematic was released.

You have to be deluded to think she compares in any single way to Kil'jaden and Archimonde.

The story of BFA wasn't marketed as "Journey of Jaina to her home" or "Saurfang's growth and journey" it was marketed as an all out war between the factions, the war that Sylvanas singlehandedly started. Not from another world, not from another planet, not from Orgrimmar, she was there. People hated her so much, that all the forums were flooded with everything about Sylvanas. That lasted through the entire expansion, everyone was theorizing why is she doing what shes doing. Is she mind controlled? Is she serving someone? Is she batshit insane?

"It's not about Sylvanas burning Teldrassil, it's about a tree succumbing to fire, representing the ruthless nature of the world we live in".
Do you understand how ridiculous you sound?

The other main characters have their own stories(even if mostly contained to a zone or two, nobody has as grand story as her in BFA, even Jaina), it's pretty obvious that she can't be literally everywhere all the time, involved in all the quest lines, always twirling her mustache... Except for the Saurfang one. You cite him as a focus of the story then you deny that the main moving plot of his arc is one too... Without Sylvanas, Saurfang has no story in BFA. Nada. Null. Zero. The entire loyalists vs traitors ark is impossible without Sylvanas.

If it wasn't for Sylvanas there would be no BFA, there would be no Shadowlands(because they are very, very heavily connected). I can't explain it any simpler than this.

P.S. I don't even get what are you trying to say with the whole Frodo Bagins spreach. There is no Frodo Bagins in BFA, there was never a Frodo Bagins in any wow expansion, period.

P.P.S. Do you by any chance also believe that the Jailer is not the focus of the Shadowlands expansion?

- - - Updated - - -

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

Yeah, Titanic would have been the same movie without the ship. I see your point.

[Raetary]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

They'll probably stick to what they originally intended, so around Feb/March.

[Divada]

They'll probably stick to what they originally intended, so around Feb/March.

Will that schedule be affected by the strike that appears to be going ahead?

[ExiHext]

Could be when BlizzCon would of been scheduled. Or E3 or Gamescon if Activision-Blizzard is even invited to participate.

I'm guessing they won't attend any conventions in the near future. I rather see an online event/stream around february where they are going to announce the next expac.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, Titanic would have been the same movie without the ship. I see your point.

In the same way that if Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet were on a plane instead of a ship you'd only need to make cosmetic changes to the story. The ship has no character of its own, it's just an instrument, scene dressing for the actual characters. Leo DiCaprio refuses to just hold onto the plank like a moron dies tragically and that is the actual story being told. The beat could not take place without the plank, but the story isn't about it.

The fact that in the same post you deny that your argument would make KJ the main character of TFT yet claim that the Jailer is the focus of SL just drives the point home how incoherent that argument really is. To whit, neither the Jailer or KJ are the foci of their respective plots. Arthas is the main character of the last campaign of TFT and patch 9.1 to 9.2 have Sylvanas as the main character. They are the ones who change and develop and go through a narrative arc. The Jailer is a narrative obstacle.

[Sondrelk]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

Either fairly early in 2022, or a fair bit after 9.2 is released.

Depends very much on what 10.0 is, and when it is likely to release.
If 10.0 is just another expansion like usual released late 2022 then we are likely to see some of it early. Though if it's something more ambitious that might end up being launched later thab usual I would expect it could be revealed later to ensure the end of expansion drought is less awful.

Of course, with there not being a Blizzcon I could absolutely see the 10.0 reveal being a bit more non-traditional.
Instead of a giant chunk of reveals we might see it more spaced out. A trailer early in 2022, features trailer a few weeks after, individual panels to spice up the empty weeks that WoW will have next year.