Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Hitei]

I'll allow myself to quote my other post to answer why T&E's take doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.

The "past Sylvanas" would have never turned out that way had she remained whole.

The problem with this (and it's one of the most common arguments being given by people in this ongoing buzz surrounding the cinematic) is you're making some fairly baseless assumptions on Sylvanas' behalf. She claims that she would never have turned out this way, but the entire point is that Banshee Sylvanas is the same person with less (not gone, mind you as her interactions with Anduin, her sister, etc. have shown) of a conscience. The Banshee didn't do those things because she was mind controlled, or hypnotized, or somehow 'injected' with evil that made her do things she wasn't capable of... she did them because she (that is, Sylvanas the whole, complete being) was always capable of those things to begin with, despite her not wanting to accept that "future" could be hers.

People want to rely on the notion that inner Sylvanas wouldn't have done the same things (and I haven't watched the T&E video, but I assume this is similar to the past/present expressed in that video) but she is the same person who did those things. "Whole Sylvanas" went through trauma (the destruction of Quel'thalas, her death and raising, the subsequent horrors she was forced to do for the Scourge) and it changed her outlook on life slightly and let her inherent selfishness and arrogance develop into a complete disregard for the lives of others or morality in the face of the cycle. She didn't do the bad things because she stopped being whole and was incapable of being a good person, she did them because it was her response to what was done to her.

As a parallel example, Jaina went through something similar with Theramore's destruction. "Pre-Theramore" Jaina was all about peace, and "would never have" demanded the Horde just be put down, or considered flooding the entire city or Orgrimmar, or purged Dalaran of the Blood Elves--but she went through a traumatic experience that altered her perspective on the world and lost her previous values.

If you went into the past somehow, and showed pre-theramore Jaina her Pandaria self about to wipe out the entire city of Orgrimmar, she would no doubt claim that it can't possibly be her, and she would never, in a million years, do something like that. But she is wrong, and it would be rather silly for players to claim that Jaina wouldn't normally be capable of that kind of thing, because we have already seen that she is.

Sylvanas is that. Her "inner" Sylvanas is like a fractured shard of who she was before the trauma, like the time-portal Jaina, unable to accept that she would go down such a dark path as a consequence of what happened to her, but they are the exact same person. It isn't that she could only do those things because she was split, it's that because she was split, we get a glimpse of her 'inexperienced' self's reaction to who she has become. That inner Sylvanas (or a Sylvanas left whole), if she had somehow been raised, and forced to murder her kin, failed to save her people, failed to get justice on Arthas, been terrified of what was waiting for her in the Shadowlands, and been offered a chance to escape fate by destroying everything... would have done the exact same things as Banshee Sylvanas--we know that because they are the same person, the Banshee, the Ranger-General, the Unified; they've just been experiencing different things by virtue of being shattered, with the inner one forced to watch in horror at the person she became.

The purpose of the entire exercise is to act as a sort of magical, metaphorical visualization of what trauma does to an individual. As above, Sylvanas doesn't do what she does because of the split, the split is a sort of artistic representation of how trauma has fractured the person from being good to being bad. The unification is there, like with Uther, as a result (very important) of her finally letting go of her obsession with gaming the system and fear of paying her dues, not as the cause for those things. Narratively, it is also intended to soften (not remove completely) the hostility towards her by showing that some small part of her collective whole still understood that she was garbage and doing evil things, even if she chose not to listen to that sliver of conscience. Much like Arthas' final conversation with Terenas softens him.

The problem is that people are over-applying that. It is not supposed to make you forgive her, and it very explicitly isn't supposed to deflect responsibility. If anything it doubles down on her guilt and responsibility, because she wasn't mind-controlled, or unaware of what she was doing, or even fooling herself. She knew just how wrong all of it was and still went through with it because it was a matter "beyond life and death".

[Relapses]

As stated in the post above, you are consistent, but consistently lacking in the self-awareness.

The biggest issue I have is that negativity circlejerking is asphyxiating this entire community to the point where it's nearly impossible to talk about anything other than how much it sucks. I do think some of the negativity is warranted but, like, some of it just feels completely manufactured, totally unrealistic or just plain non-sensical. I know it's not my place to police the community but I'm not afraid to call this type of pandering out when I see it, even if I know it's unlikely to make me a whole lot of friends.

[Vakir]

Fair. But it's much easier to set the example of being positive rather than being aggressive towards negativity. This ain't maths - it doesn't equal out to a positive. People who do like it are out there, including this thread. You can gravitate towards them rather than self-aggrandize with the equivalent of the strawman comic signed to every post.

[Hugnomo]

The problem with this (and it's one of the most common arguments being given by people in this ongoing buzz surrounding the cinematic) is you're making some fairly baseless assumptions on Sylvanas' behalf. She claims that she would never have turned out this way, but the entire point is that Banshee Sylvanas is the same person with less (not gone, mind you as her interactions with Anduin, her sister, etc. have shown) of a conscience. The Banshee didn't do those things because she was mind controlled, or hypnotized, or somehow 'injected' with evil that made her do things she wasn't capable of... she did them because she (that is, Sylvanas the whole, complete being) was always capable of those things to begin with, despite her not wanting to accept that "future" could be hers.

People want to rely on the notion that inner Sylvanas wouldn't have done the same things (and I haven't watched the T&E video, but I assume this is similar to the past/present expressed in that video) but she is the same person who did those things. "Whole Sylvanas" went through trauma (the destruction of Quel'thalas, her death and raising, the subsequent horrors she was forced to do for the Scourge) and it changed her outlook on life slightly and let her inherent selfishness and arrogance develop into a complete disregard for the lives of others or morality in the face of the cycle. She didn't do the bad things because she stopped being whole and was incapable of being a good person, she did them because it was her response to what was done to her.

As a parallel example, Jaina went through something similar with Theramore's destruction. "Pre-Theramore" Jaina was all about peace, and "would never have" demanded the Horde just be put down, or considered flooding the entire city or Orgrimmar, or purged Dalaran of the Blood Elves--but she went through a traumatic experience that altered her perspective on the world and lost her previous values.

If you went into the past somehow, and showed pre-theramore Jaina her Pandaria self about to wipe out the entire city of Orgrimmar, she would no doubt claim that it can't possibly be her, and she would never, in a million years, do something like that. But she is wrong, and it would be rather silly for players to claim that Jaina wouldn't normally be capable of that kind of thing, because we have already seen that she is.

Sylvanas is that. Her "inner" Sylvanas is like a fractured shard of who she was before the trauma, like the time-portal Jaina, unable to accept that she would go down such a dark path as a consequence of what happened to her, but they are the exact same person. It isn't that she could only do those things because she was split, it's that because she was split, we get a glimpse of her 'inexperienced' self's reaction to who she has become. That inner Sylvanas (or a Sylvanas left whole), if she had somehow been raised, and forced to murder her kin, failed to save her people, failed to get justice on Arthas, been terrified of what was waiting for her in the Shadowlands, and been offered a chance to escape fate by destroying everything... would have done the exact same things as Banshee Sylvanas--we know that because they are the same person, the Banshee, the Ranger-General, the Unified; they've just been experiencing different things by virtue of being shattered, with the inner one forced to watch in horror at the person she became.

The purpose of the entire exercise is to act as a sort of magical, metaphorical visualization of what trauma does to an individual. As above, Sylvanas doesn't do what she does because of the split, the split is a sort of artistic representation of how trauma has fractured the person from being good to being bad. The unification is there, like with Uther, as a result (very important) of her finally letting go of her obsession with gaming the system and fear of paying her dues, not as the cause for those things. Narratively, it is also intended to soften (not remove completely) the hostility towards her by showing that some small part of her collective whole still understood that she was garbage and doing evil things, even if she chose not to listen to that sliver of conscience. Much like Arthas' final conversation with Terenas softens him.

The problem is that people are over-applying that. It is not supposed to make you forgive her, and it very explicitly isn't supposed to deflect responsibility. If anything it doubles down on her guilt and responsibility, because she wasn't mind-controlled, or unaware of what she was doing, or even fooling herself. She knew just how wrong all of it was and still went through with it because it was a matter "beyond life and death".

I enjoyed reading this comment. Thank you for the thoroughness.
But I guess I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that shattering one's soul has no consequence on that person.
It's weird to look at that action as somehow benign or meaningless. That a person had their soul fractured, divided, carried on without a part of themselves, and that we shouldn't think that had any bearing on their state, thoughts, decisions. If that's what their saying, I don't think it's very intuitive storytelling.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I enjoyed reading this comment. Thank you for the thoroughness.
But I guess I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that shattering one's soul has no consequence on that person.
It's weird to look at that action as somehow benign or meaningless. That a person had their soul fractured, divided, carried on without a part of themselves, and that we shouldn't think that had any bearing on their state, thoughts, decisions. If that's what their saying, I don't think it's very intuitive storytelling.

In Uther's case its like a wound that won't go away and being reminded of said moment in repetition. It seems to be a similar way with Sylvanas. Its also very apparent Uther's soul shattering is just the story's way of softening you to the idea of it happening to Sylvanas. Regardless though, its not necessarily a redeeming moment for her.

Hitei sorta made a good point. Its like facing you from several years ago or even a few years ago seeing your current self and speaking for myself, Past me would be kinda scared and shocked to see their future.

[Osmeric]

If I believed for a second that most of the vitriol on this website was even remotely genuine, I'd agree with you. It's not, though. It's just a bunch of people angry that a thing they liked changed in a way they don't like.

Why is that not genuine?

[Hitei]

I enjoyed reading this comment. Thank you for the thoroughness.
But I guess I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that shattering one's soul has no consequence on that person.
It's weird to look at that action as somehow benign or meaningless. That a person had their soul fractured, divided, carried on without a part of themselves, and that we shouldn't think that had any bearing on their state, thoughts, decisions. If that's what their saying, I don't think it's very intuitive storytelling.

I don't think it has absolutely zero consequence, it just doesn't change who people fundamentally are. It's another layer of trauma, not a possession or corruption, and certainly less of an impact than the events surrounding the fracture. It made it harder for Uther to move past his resentment for Arthas, but that hatred isn't from being split, it was something he developed while still alive and carried with him into death. Similarly, Sylvanas' split probably hardened her resolve, but it's not what created it, that was built on the disregard and disdain for life she developed from being used as a weapon by the Scourge, the hatred she built up for Arthas, and then the terror about her ultimate fate and fear of loss of control she gained from dying in Icecrown. Events made her a monster, not having part of her soul sheared off.

[Revamp Man]

I saw somebody post this on discord:
"destroys an iconic piece from WC3 and turns it into a tacky, ugly, unnecessary 'better' version none asked for"
And that sums up nuWoW lore pretty well I'd say. Good metaphor.

Yep that’s the last couple expansions honestly kinda sad

I’m definitely happy that the end is coming soon though

- - - Updated - - -

I was ready for 9.3 and kinda upset that it wasn’t going to happen because that means a rushed 10.0 but after seeing where they are going with the 9.2 story I’m happy about it.

When Shadowlands was announced I was pissed because I hated literally everything we saw but figured I would give it a shot because some stuff like torghast had great potential and the vault working with bonus rolls allowing you to target gear seemed amazing….then we got none of that and the devs said “we are right you are wrong” just like every time until they got proven wrong and had to admit they were wrong while not admitting they were wrong and keeping their ego attached.

I just want to go back to Azeroth and deal with the existing numerous threats there while playing my class that doesn’t need to unlock what equates to a vanilla talent after grinding some stupid currency that becomes pointless after the first patch. I want to experience actual power growth and permanently gain it. I want the system devs to all sit on lead screws and be replaced by literally anyone.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I saw somebody post this on discord:
"destroys an iconic piece from WC3 and turns it into a tacky, ugly, unnecessary 'better' version none asked for"
And that sums up nuWoW lore pretty well I'd say. Good metaphor.

That is basically the crux of WoW's storytelling really since the lukewarm reception of Pandaria and dislike of Draenor.

"Well shit if we can't write new stuff well let's just constantly retcon and retell aspects of Warcraft 3."

[ohwell]

I'll allow myself to quote my other post to answer why T&E's take doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.

Not sure why past vs present in your manner matters because you seem to have it pretty wrong. There isn't anything essentially WRONG with their personalities. "Present Sylvanas" would be the same as the Uther we found in Frostmourne not the Uther that was in Bastion. The "Past Sylvanas" is the one who immediately went to the SL just like Kyrian Uther. None of the 4 are good or bad or any different in personality from the moment they split. It was simply the events endured by the separate entities that changed them from the others. Uther in Bastion lived with the pain of the wound and Devos and others guiding him. "Present Sylvanas" was essentially tortured by Arthas and endured so much more than "Past Sylvanas" was given the chance to confront in the video as seemingly the Jailer made the bad moments that Sylvanas caused to be the ones that were repeated. Had she lived the same torment she'd be exactly the same. I never understood how people were saying "good Uther" and "bad Uther" as if the one in Bastion was somehow immediately inclined to being evil as soon as he split which wasn't the case. In stating that present sylvanas only exists because of the absence of past Sylvanas you seem to imply her lacking that shard caused her to be the way she is. The shard was simply a by product, but has nothing to do with her internally. Now if you're just saying that her dying created the shard and that's it, then sure, but the rest of your argument seems to fall apart if that changes. "Past Sylvanas" being gone in a crystal somewhere had nothing to do with anything else from the moment she died.

Nowhere does it say the split made them different.

That being said, it's not "past" in her case but rather simply one that was frozen in time. Similar, but still not the same. It was essentially once again a failsafe made by the Jailer

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with this (and it's one of the most common arguments being given by people in this ongoing buzz surrounding the cinematic) is you're making some fairly baseless assumptions on Sylvanas' behalf. She claims that she would never have turned out this way, but the entire point is that Banshee Sylvanas is the same person with less (not gone, mind you as her interactions with Anduin, her sister, etc. have shown) of a conscience. The Banshee didn't do those things because she was mind controlled, or hypnotized, or somehow 'injected' with evil that made her do things she wasn't capable of... she did them because she (that is, Sylvanas the whole, complete being) was always capable of those things to begin with, despite her not wanting to accept that "future" could be hers.

People want to rely on the notion that inner Sylvanas wouldn't have done the same things (and I haven't watched the T&E video, but I assume this is similar to the past/present expressed in that video) but she is the same person who did those things. "Whole Sylvanas" went through trauma (the destruction of Quel'thalas, her death and raising, the subsequent horrors she was forced to do for the Scourge) and it changed her outlook on life slightly and let her inherent selfishness and arrogance develop into a complete disregard for the lives of others or morality in the face of the cycle. She didn't do the bad things because she stopped being whole and was incapable of being a good person, she did them because it was her response to what was done to her.

As a parallel example, Jaina went through something similar with Theramore's destruction. "Pre-Theramore" Jaina was all about peace, and "would never have" demanded the Horde just be put down, or considered flooding the entire city or Orgrimmar, or purged Dalaran of the Blood Elves--but she went through a traumatic experience that altered her perspective on the world and lost her previous values.

If you went into the past somehow, and showed pre-theramore Jaina her Pandaria self about to wipe out the entire city of Orgrimmar, she would no doubt claim that it can't possibly be her, and she would never, in a million years, do something like that. But she is wrong, and it would be rather silly for players to claim that Jaina wouldn't normally be capable of that kind of thing, because we have already seen that she is.

Sylvanas is that. Her "inner" Sylvanas is like a fractured shard of who she was before the trauma, like the time-portal Jaina, unable to accept that she would go down such a dark path as a consequence of what happened to her, but they are the exact same person. It isn't that she could only do those things because she was split, it's that because she was split, we get a glimpse of her 'inexperienced' self's reaction to who she has become. That inner Sylvanas (or a Sylvanas left whole), if she had somehow been raised, and forced to murder her kin, failed to save her people, failed to get justice on Arthas, been terrified of what was waiting for her in the Shadowlands, and been offered a chance to escape fate by destroying everything... would have done the exact same things as Banshee Sylvanas--we know that because they are the same person, the Banshee, the Ranger-General, the Unified; they've just been experiencing different things by virtue of being shattered, with the inner one forced to watch in horror at the person she became.

The purpose of the entire exercise is to act as a sort of magical, metaphorical visualization of what trauma does to an individual. As above, Sylvanas doesn't do what she does because of the split, the split is a sort of artistic representation of how trauma has fractured the person from being good to being bad. The unification is there, like with Uther, as a result (very important) of her finally letting go of her obsession with gaming the system and fear of paying her dues, not as the cause for those things. Narratively, it is also intended to soften (not remove completely) the hostility towards her by showing that some small part of her collective whole still understood that she was garbage and doing evil things, even if she chose not to listen to that sliver of conscience. Much like Arthas' final conversation with Terenas softens him.

The problem is that people are over-applying that. It is not supposed to make you forgive her, and it very explicitly isn't supposed to deflect responsibility. If anything it doubles down on her guilt and responsibility, because she wasn't mind-controlled, or unaware of what she was doing, or even fooling herself. She knew just how wrong all of it was and still went through with it because it was a matter "beyond life and death".

While I agree with some of what you're saying, I whole heartedly disagree on the "lack of a conscience" part. Nothing has suggested the Frostmourne soul parts(WotLK dungeon Uther and Banshee Queen Sylvanas) are any different or lacking. If anything we're shown quite the opposite as the 2 Uthers are the opposite of what is being presented. The one in Frostmourne that we meet is the one taken by the blade which is the same as the Sylvanas we've known. He would be the "bad" one according to that premise which isn't the case as he is seemingly the same as the one from WC3. It's simply the lived experiences of said beings that changed them. Uther in Bastion changed due to his time in Bastion and the wound. Sylvanas on Azeroth changed because of the many things she endured and did. Ranger General Sylvanas and WC3 Uther stayed the same because they were both trapped a in limbo of sorts.

[Revamp Man]

That is basically the crux of WoW's storytelling really since the lukewarm reception of Pandaria and dislike of Draenor.

"Well shit if we can't write new stuff well let's just constantly retcon and retell aspects of Warcraft 3."

In terms of Pandaria they just expanded on Chen and people looked at pandas and went “oh my god pandas are just silly the story is just jokes I’ll take my serious talking cows and green aliens with space goats”

When it was a seriously messed up story lol

[Khaza-R]

In terms of Pandaria they just expanded on Chen and people looked at pandas and went “oh my god pandas are just silly the story is just jokes I’ll take my serious talking cows and green aliens with space goats”

When it was a seriously messed up story lol

It was always weird to me when people complained about Panderan being too childish or goofy when TBC spawned endless memes over adding spaceships and other sci-fi elements to the setting.

Lets not forget this gem from 2007.

https://lorelol.ytmnd.com/

[Revamp Man]

Ok
What happened to the 9.0 leak from @razorpax
I can’t even find the thread anymore and I was trying to remember his stuff

[ExiHext]

I'll allow myself to quote my other post to answer why T&E's take doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.

And that's where you are absolutely wrong. There is a past and present Sylvanas. But the past Sylvanas would have made the exact same character development as our Sylvanas. Think of her as a snapshot of her personality the moment she died. She believes she wouldn't but that's just because she is something like frozen in time and never experienced what present Sylvanas experienced. She is just there for conflict reasons. That's clear as day and that's why she accepts everything that is going to happen with her in the end.
There will be no two Sylvanas' in the end. Just one merged personality that will finally realize what atrocities she has commited.

Edit: I should have read @ohwell's comment, that pretty much sums ist up.

Not sure why past vs present in your manner matters because you seem to have it pretty wrong. There isn't anything essentially WRONG with their personalities. "Present Sylvanas" would be the same as the Uther we found in Frostmourne not the Uther that was in Bastion. The "Past Sylvanas" is the one who immediately went to the SL just like Kyrian Uther. None of the 4 are good or bad or any different in personality from the moment they split. It was simply the events endured by the separate entities that changed them from the others. Uther in Bastion lived with the pain of the wound and Devos and others guiding him. "Present Sylvanas" was essentially tortured by Arthas and endured so much more than "Past Sylvanas" was given the chance to confront in the video as seemingly the Jailer made the bad moments that Sylvanas caused to be the ones that were repeated. Had she lived the same torment she'd be exactly the same. I never understood how people were saying "good Uther" and "bad Uther" as if the one in Bastion was somehow immediately inclined to being evil as soon as he split which wasn't the case. In stating that present sylvanas only exists because of the absence of past Sylvanas you seem to imply her lacking that shard caused her to be the way she is. The shard was simply a by product, but has nothing to do with her internally. Now if you're just saying that her dying created the shard and that's it, then sure, but the rest of your argument seems to fall apart if that changes. "Past Sylvanas" being gone in a crystal somewhere had nothing to do with anything else from the moment she died.

Nowhere does it say the split made them different.

That being said, it's not "past" in her case but rather simply one that was frozen in time. Similar, but still not the same. It was essentially once again a failsafe made by the Jailer

[Super Dickmann]

The main worthwhile takeaway from the e-celeb video is the bit about the scar matching where it was thrown into her in 9.1. It's noticable on a rewatch and solves the Frostmourne scar bs without retconning the means of her death and raising for what's either the third or fourth time. Past that, not so much.

And that's where you are absolutely wrong. There is a past and present Sylvanas. But the past Sylvanas would have made the exact same character development as our Sylvanas. Think of her as a snapshot of her personality the moment she died. She believes she wouldn't but that's just because she is something like frozen in time and never experienced what present Sylvanas experienced. She is just there for conflict reasons. That's clear as day and that's why she accepts everything that is going to happen with her in the end.
There will be no two Sylvanas' in the end. Just one merged personality that will finally realize what atrocities she has commited.

I'd say why I believe the cinematic fails at this, but I already did, so I'll just quote the Dickmann from the lore sub-forum topic on this:

The lady doth protest too much is all I can say about it when in its own context. You can claim however often you like that no, really Potato Sylvanas is totally responsible, we aren't removing a character with seventeen years in the franchise so we can replace her with her own framing device from three missions of WC3. But a potato is a potato and much like living Sylvanas' weird, weird face this is a weird story beat and execution. Ostensibly this is the equivalent of Uther reconciling with his stance on Arthas as in 9.1, but where there the two were fragments, with only the one we followed having agency and being our point of view character as he reverts to his WotLK conclusion, in this case, the only character we follow in the mindscape is the context-less Potato Sylvanas whereas save for reruns, the Sylvanas who actually did everything gets no lines. For a character defined chiefly by her commitment to making choices and staying alive, to be relegated to background material for a new, entirely separate character who just so happens to inhabit her body and share her name is beyond missing the point.

Shit or get off the pot, you can't have it both ways. If you show her not being responsible and focus all attention on Potato Sylvanas, don't say that she's responsible when every other element of the cinematic screams that she isn't. If you say she's responsible, have the character actually responsible address this rather than some facsimile and have said character cope with what it's like to torch a city's worth of people and ruin all she's had for nothing and to do so of her own volition. The former would make this cinematic fine enough for what it is, that being Uther, the only person here not screwed over by Sylvanas in any way, breaking it gently to an aspect of her before that aspect melts into the greater whole. The latter is owning your shit decision to go with this agency erasure device and is far worse, but is at least intellectually honest.

The POV puts us in Potato Sylvanas's shoes rather than the Sylvanas we've had for seventeen odd years and go through her struggle to reconcile with what she'd go on to do. This combined with the way that dialogue alludes to Potato Sylvanas accepting culpability while our Sylvanas doesn't get to engage with Uther or what she makes of being judged by her much less experienced, much less traumatized self, it primes us to consider Potato Sylvanas the real deal. Along with her increased focus compared to our current Sylvanas and the lack of actually seeing the two Sylvanases/Sylvani/whatever merge with the focus on the blue eyes that we associated with Potato Sylvanas creates the strong visual and emotional approach towards Potato Sylvanas now being the dominant element of the character. Is it possible that the character won't be written this way going forward? Possibly, but given she laments how bad it was to be judge and executioner towards Arthas, the guy at the root of all her life's problems, I kind of doubt it. But it is the impression the narrative creates because the words said and what is depicted are dissonant.

Framing this cinematic from our Sylvanas' point of view, or with the positions reversed, having our Sylvanas having to reconcile being judged by her younger self and then talking to Uther, as well as a scene where they merge, like the Uthers, would go a long way to solving this issue. But what would go an even longer way is to skip this whole bullshit in the first place and if we are going to have an Uther/Sylvanas soulscape scene just have her be struggling with her actions organically and come to the conclusion that she fucked up herself. This whole 'there are two wolves inside you' bs was terrible with Varian, inoffensive with Uther and now perfunctory with Sylvanas and at best is an extremely obtuse, arcane way of having the character change her worldview, something she's already done before without the need for such contrived plot devices.

[Vineman24]

So basically what is have been done to Sylvanas is the same Voldemort did to himself 7 times, right? There is a soulshards with his personality captured at the moment of creation of a horcrux and there is "main" Voldemort with his personality intact. Correct me if I got this wrong

[Revamp Man]

So basically what is have been done to Sylvanas is the same Voldemort did to himself 7 times, right? There is a soulshards with his personality captured at the moment of creation of a horcrux and there is "main" Voldemort with his personality intact. Correct me if I got this wrong

Kinda but not really
I mean that’s more or less what happened but she was frozen in time
Kinda like Sam in Supernatural when he took back his memories

One memory was him soulless and he absorbed that and got all the memories
Then hell memories and he absorbed and got those

The only big difference is that Sylvanas was wrestling with the one we had for years over accepting what she did and what happened

[Sondrelk]

The main worthwhile takeaway from the e-celeb video is the bit about the scar matching where it was thrown into her in 9.1. It's noticable on a rewatch and solves the Frostmourne scar bs without retconning the means of her death and raising for what's either the third or fourth time. Past that, not so much.



I'd say why I believe the cinematic fails at this, but I already did, so I'll just quote the Dickmann from the lore sub-forum topic on this:



The POV puts us in Potato Sylvanas's shoes rather than the Sylvanas we've had for seventeen odd years and go through her struggle to reconcile with what she'd go on to do. This combined with the way that dialogue alludes to Potato Sylvanas accepting culpability while our Sylvanas doesn't get to engage with Uther or what she makes of being judged by her much less experienced, much less traumatized self, it primes us to consider Potato Sylvanas the real deal. Along with her increased focus compared to our current Sylvanas and the lack of actually seeing the two Sylvanases/Sylvani/whatever merge with the focus on the blue eyes that we associated with Potato Sylvanas creates the strong visual and emotional approach towards Potato Sylvanas now being the dominant element of the character. Is it possible that the character won't be written this way going forward? Possibly, but given she laments how bad it was to be judge and executioner towards Arthas, the guy at the root of all her life's problems, I kind of doubt it. But it is the impression the narrative creates because the words said and what is depicted are dissonant.

Framing this cinematic from our Sylvanas' point of view, or with the positions reversed, having our Sylvanas having to reconcile being judged by her younger self and then talking to Uther, as well as a scene where they merge, like the Uthers, would go a long way to solving this issue. But what would go an even longer way is to skip this whole bullshit in the first place and if we are going to have an Uther/Sylvanas soulscape scene just have her be struggling with her actions organically and come to the conclusion that she fucked up herself. This whole 'there are two wolves inside you' bs was terrible with Varian, inoffensive with Uther and now perfunctory with Sylvanas and at best is an extremely obtuse, arcane way of having the character change her worldview, something she's already done before without the need for such contrived plot devices.

Could you imagine if the cinematic didnt focus on Blue Eyes Sylvanas being tortured, and instead on the Sylvanas we know being tortured by her actions? Not Bluevanas having to sit and watch her Redvanas self be evil, but just Sylvanas being tortured by reliving the reactions to those she killed constantly asking her why she did it?

Just imagine, Sylvanas trying to stop herself from ordering the burning of Teldrassil even as he body moves and talks to the opposite while the captured Night Elves scream in the background. Seeing the desperation of the Forsaken as they try to escape her and be with their families as she has them killed. The seeming confusion in the eyes of Zelling as he is unceremoniously killed for practicing what he was told was the main tenet of Forsaken society.

The idea that she is tortured by the implications of her actions would always be slightly dumb, but at least it could have been more harrowing instead of confusing. After all, Bluevanas might be a true Sylvanas, but from our perspective she might as well be a new character. The scene has about as much weight to it if we transplant any character with a conscience into that scene. You could have had the elf lady that Sylvanas failed to save in the Afterlives cinematic and the scene would have functioned no differently.

[huth]

It was always weird to me when people complained about Panderan being too childish or goofy when TBC spawned endless memes over adding spaceships and other sci-fi elements to the setting.

Lets not forget this gem from 2007.

https://lorelol.ytmnd.com/

Let's not forget that WC3 retconned a lot of stuff from the previous two as well. Or the whole Eredar/Draenei debacle.

Pretending this is somehow a recent issue is rather ridiculous.

[Revamp Man]

So we have the Sylvanas timeline
Regular life
Arthas fight
Soul A removed and frozen in time
Soul B becomes banshee
Warcraft 3-WotLK
Soul B gets impaled on big daddy AYogg’s blood
Takes offer from valkyr and is now being partially manipulated by jailer
Soul B becomes war chief
Soul B makes deal with helya to seal the signe so she can have more valkyr and helya cripples Odyn
She fails
Soul B starts ear by burning tree because she needed more souls even though in a book it was said she did it because the alliance would never surrender so her original plan of having them give up eventually wouldn’t work (they retconned this after just two years)
B then teams up with ashvane to raise proudmoore to kill his family
B abandoned that when the cow betrayed her
B then commits to helping the naga release and kill the old god
B then kills Saurfang and runs off
B then attacks the LK and breaks the helm so she can jump into the maw and bring the jailer’s forces out
B kidnaps leaders
B turns Anduin
B gathers sigils under the orders of the jailer like everything else she’s done since breaking the crown
B gets strangled by her GF and told her cuck is dead
B defeats us and decides that after her sugar daddy gets his power back she’ll no longer do everything that he says and fires essentially a toothpick at new Thanos
Thanos then Fists B with A
A and B are now stuck in their head arguing over how B didn’t really serve and genocide wasn’t that bad cuz freedum
Uther brings out A and tells her to stop being such a pussy and accept that she did do that because B was still a part of her soul and A is like “I mean I guess I am a bit of a bitch for doing that”
And after everything our new Sylvanas is going to search the shadowlands for Nathanos even though he wasn’t judged and would have gone straight to the maw so either the jailer used him or he just let him wander for some strange reason


That’s your 6 years of build up
That’s your character that was the center of multiple books and comics
Well kinda since they rewrote most of her motivations

- - - Updated - - -

And if you want proof current writers don’t know the old lore
Sylvanas didn’t recognize Uther
They had fought together in past wars
She knew him then
But now he’s a stranger