Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ersula]

Where was this stated?

In that they're left behind when we defeat them & we can't normally see souls outside the shadowlands, unless there's necromancy involved

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Well, it's pretty clear Denathrius and his Unseen Guests were involved in this, so there's also the possibility that he wouldn't normally have gone there at all. Would also explain why it looked like Revendreth aligned Anima.

Because red?

We don't need further explaination. We killed a titan, they went to the Shadowlands: That's never happened before. It's like throwing a wrench into a wheat thresher, the machine of death is gonna break. Apparently this was all part of their plan but that doesn't necessarily mean they needed to intervene further.

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I love how the Jailer meant to use the Helm of Domination as the ultimate tool to make an all-obedient champion and pretty much EVERY person who wielded it (Ner'zhul, Arthas, Bolvar) rejected him. And the last one, although close to being broken, already had a contingency plan to not allow that.

How did Ner'zhul or Arthas reject him? Ner'zhul worked for Zovaal up until 9.1 when we kill him in the raid. Same with Arthas in ICC.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I love how the Jailer meant to use the Helm of Domination as the ultimate tool to make an all-obedient champion and pretty much EVERY person who wielded it (Ner'zhul, Arthas, Bolvar) rejected him. And the last one, although close to being broken, already had a contingency plan to not allow that.

I think only Bolvar was mostly being the defiant one the most but his whole Lich King project hasn't worked out too well but he's patient.

[Ersula]

In the place between their butt cheecks
The star wobble thing are the world souls, we literally interacted with them throughout Antorus.

Exactly. Like I said. It's the carcass that's left behind. Eonar never died: That's her, not her ghost.

[draugril]

Rebuilt Silvermoon and destroyed Orgrimmar?

I mean, it would be wholly in line with the writers utterly destroying the original tone of the Horde.

[Alanar]

In the place between their butt cheecks

Hilarious..

Anyway..
This was about argus remains or/soul question being red and blue. Was vague to me.

Then... what is the world soul that remain on the seat of Pantheon? Split in two again?

I was actually refering to this.

[EbaumsTipster]

Not at all surprised to see the WoW fanbase insisting that Blizzard planned for Sylvanas to be the Arbiter but "backpedaled" just so they can still be asshurt about a story point that was never confirmed to exist.

[Sondrelk]

Seeing the Jailer talk about how long he has waited, and how many plans were set in motion really just underlines how meaningless his existence in the plot really is, doesn't it.
Even assuming he was a player in the cosmic warfare thing for ages the parts we are privy to doesn't even really cover 50 years. A while sure, but hardly eons of careful planning.

This should have been Sargeras with a foolproof plan to trick the pantheon into believing he was defeated, not the Janitor squeezing his way into the plot to claim ownership of events we thought finished.

Not even just Sargeras. This could have been an avatar of N'zoth, or Turalyon possessed by Naaru.
Really anyone that has some amount of buildup to warrant such a massive payoff.

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Not at all surprised to see the WoW fanbase insisting that Blizzard planned for Sylvanas to be the Arbiter but "backpedaled" just so they can still be asshurt about a story point that was never confirmed to exist.

Be fair, Pelagos does come across like a very much random option for Arbiter. The sum total of his "buildup" to this decision is him not being 100% sure he is meant to be a Kyrian, which would be true for pretty much any character in Bastion.
He is hardly even in the plot long enough that non-Kyrian players are likely to remember who he is.

[Varodoc]

After having reviewed and judged the Janitor in his (not so many) intricacies, I can conclude that N'Zoth remains the smartest villain in Warcraft. Despite all the retcons made to push him into this role of "super duper uber mastermind", the Janitor cannot compare to N'Zoth.

While the Janitor was always a Titan-level creature like Sargeras, N'Zoth was an Old God (bugs compared to the Titans), and the weakest Old God too.

N'Zoth also didn't need any retcon or asspull to manipulate his victims, he did so because he's genuinely written as a smart villain.

N'Zoth is like the underdog nerd who was made fun of in middle school, only to get jacked and come back to kick everyone's ass.

And that's why, as far as villains, I appreciate N'Zoth far more than these uber duper World-sized titans. Because he himself was weak physically and truly had to work his (metaphorical) ass off to get into a position of dominance.

Other villains similar to N'Zoth (but somewhat dumber) would be Gul'dan and Kel'thuzad...

[niilokin]

Seeing the Jailer talk about how long he has waited, and how many plans were set in motion really just underlines how meaningless his existence in the plot really is, doesn't it.
Even assuming he was a player in the cosmic warfare thing for ages the parts we are privy to doesn't even really cover 50 years. A while sure, but hardly eons of careful planning.

This should have been Sargeras with a foolproof plan to trick the pantheon into believing he was defeated, not the Janitor squeezing his way into the plot to claim ownership of events we thought finished.

Not even just Sargeras. This could have been an avatar of N'zoth, or Turalyon possessed by Naaru.
Really anyone that has some amount of buildup to warrant such a massive payoff.

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Be fair, Pelagos does come across like a very much random option for Arbiter. The sum total of his "buildup" to this decision is him not being 100% sure he is meant to be a Kyrian, which would be true for pretty much any character in Bastion.
He is hardly even in the plot long enough that non-Kyrian players are likely to remember who he is.

Jailer's plan to completely remake the universe is an allegory to Danuser wanting to completely retcon the warcraft universe.

[huth]

We don't need further explaination. We killed a titan, they went to the Shadowlands: That's never happened before. It's like throwing a wrench into a wheat thresher, the machine of death is gonna break. Apparently this was all part of their plan but that doesn't necessarily mean they needed to intervene further.

That's completely backwards. Unusual behaviour needs explanations, not normal. You just described why there has to be an explanation.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Jailer's plan to completely remake the universe is an allegory to Danuser wanting to completely retcon the warcraft universe.

No it isn't. You guys are just obsessed with the danuser a bit too much.

Seeing the Jailer talk about how long he has waited, and how many plans were set in motion really just underlines how meaningless his existence in the plot really is, doesn't it.
Even assuming he was a player in the cosmic warfare thing for ages the parts we are privy to doesn't even really cover 50 years. A while sure, but hardly eons of careful planning.

This should have been Sargeras with a foolproof plan to trick the pantheon into believing he was defeated, not the Janitor squeezing his way into the plot to claim ownership of events we thought finished.

Not even just Sargeras. This could have been an avatar of N'zoth, or Turalyon possessed by Naaru.
Really anyone that has some amount of buildup to warrant such a massive payoff.

SInce you've been shatting on the Jailer since ever course you are going to claim its not good. The Jailer has been waiting because he's about to get what he wants and has waited forever. I don't know what to say other then its obvious what is going on but you seem to want to dismantle it cause you dislike it. Its shortened to be sure but its not hard to understand.

Edit: Don't take it personal and, to fix a quote.

[draugril]

Not at all surprised to see the WoW fanbase insisting that Blizzard planned for Sylvanas to be the Arbiter but "backpedaled" just so they can still be asshurt about a story point that was never confirmed to exist.

I think the fact that this particular conclusion was in any way "logical" to anyone speaks to what a convoluted mess the overall narrative has been. When there's no internal logic or ongoing development in a story, people start grasping at straws hoping to find some logic therein. They know the Arbiter is an unfulfilled role. They know that Sylvanas' story is about to come to some sort of conclusion. You can't blame them for trying to connect those two disconnected plot points when so little of what we're given is logically connected.

[crusadernero]

I think the fact that this particular conclusion was in any way "logical" to anyone speaks to what a convoluted mess the overall narrative has been. When there's no internal logic or ongoing development in a story, people start grasping at straws hoping to find some logic therein. They know the Arbiter is an unfulfilled role. They know that Sylvanas' story is about to come to some sort of conclusion. You can't blame them for trying to connect those two disconnected plot points when so little of what we're given is logically connected.

At this point its anyones guess. Who even here has a proper educated guess on whats going to happen? It rarely ever happens. The strength about wow lore is there always big room to speculate, but the weakness is that the story actually told is a proper mess.

[Sondrelk]

No it isn't. You guys are just obsessed with the danuser a bit too much.





SInce you've been shatting on the Jailer since ever course you are going to claim its not good. The Jailer has been waiting because he's about to get what he wants and has waited forever. I don't know what to say other then its obvious what is going on but you seem to want to dismantle it cause you dislike it. Its shortened to be sure but its not hard to understand.

Edit: Don't take it personal and, to fix a quote.

I am shitting on the Jailer because the game has yet to give me a good reason to find him compelling, and despite this he is supposedly the big bad.
It is quite telling when we are at the end, and only now are we beginning to understand basic aspects of his plans, like how to disable the Arbiter, which despite being an integral step to the plan seems to be an afterthought.

It's annoying when a character suddenly appears and tries to squeeze its way into being important despite having none of the buildup.

[draugril]

At this point its anyones guess. Who even here has a proper educated guess on whats going to happen? It rarely ever happens. The strength about wow lore is there always big room to speculate, but the weakness is that the story actually told is a proper mess.

I used to love theorizing about what was going to happen next. But the story is now delivered in a way to deliberately mislead and misconstrue and obfuscate. Instead of simply telling a story, they "save" the vast majority of plot or character development for "reveals." Reveals that the player has no investment in because they didn't develop the story or character during the course of a narrative that would actually make those reveals matter.

They're trying to give us catharsis without building it up. It doesn't work that way, though.

Being able to predict what happens next in the story based on the story you're engaged with to this point is not a failing. Being "predictable" is not a bad thing. You need your story to be predictable, to a degree, to make the twists and turns and reveals matter, by contrast.

[crusadernero]

I used to love theorizing about what was going to happen next. But the story is now delivered in a way to deliberately mislead and misconstrue and obfuscate. Instead of simply telling a story, they "save" the vast majority of plot or character development for "reveals." Reveals that the player has no investment in because they didn't develop the story or character during the course of a narrative that would actually make those reveals matter.

They're trying to give us catharsis without building it up. It doesn't work that way, though.

Being able to predict what happens next in the story based on the story you're engaged with to this point is not a failing. Being "predictable" is not a bad thing. You need your story to be predictable, to a degree, to make the twists and turns and reveals matter, by contrast.

I agree. I've always been frustrated how Blizzard ALWAYS leaves us with cliffhangers. Theres never any closure or ending to anything, its just a convoluted mess that keeps on going. At this point, I am starting to lose interest in the warcraft lore and i've been a big fan for many years.

[shoc]

I am shitting on the Jailer because the game has yet to give me a good reason to find him compelling, and despite this he is supposedly the big bad.
It is quite telling when we are at the end, and only now are we beginning to understand basic aspects of his plans, like how to disable the Arbiter, which despite being an integral step to the plan seems to be an afterthought.

It's annoying when a character suddenly appears and tries to squeeze its way into being important despite having none of the buildup.

The best part is I am sure Blizzard has convinced themselves that the events of WC3 through to Legion is this legendary buildup considering how often Zovaal meta-references having a secret hand in everything. I hate how harmless Zovaal is. For a brutal anti-god of death and misery he doesn't do very much. Zovaal should have murdered all the B-tier characters that Blizzard doesn't know what to do with, at least that would have set a good stage. Baine would be perfect cannon fodder for something like this, now there's a character with lots of sentimental value that we would actually care about if killed brutally.

[Osmeric]

I agree. I've always been frustrated how Blizzard ALWAYS leaves us with cliffhangers. Theres never any closure or ending to anything, its just a convoluted mess that keeps on going. At this point, I am starting to lose interest in the warcraft lore and i've been a big fan for many years.

The lore at the start of SL, such as it was, didn't create any engagement with me. I didn't care what was happening or who it was happening to. If anything, it was just annoying.

Since I didn't have any commitment to the story or setting, and because I was annoyed with the gameplay, all that kept me around was people I had played with, and that ran dry in just a few weeks. You don't need WoW to keep in touch with people.

[TheFirstOnes]

“Argus is a First One”

Not this shit again…

[draugril]

The best part is I am sure Blizzard has convinced themselves that the events of WC3 through to Legion is this legendary buildup considering how often Zovaal meta-references having a secret hand in everything. I hate how harmless Zovaal is. For a brutal anti-god of death and misery he doesn't do very much. Zovaal should have murdered all the B-tier characters that Blizzard doesn't know what to do with, at least that would have set a good stage. Baine would be perfect cannon fodder for something like this, now there's a character with lots of sentimental value that we would actually care about if killed brutally.

Honestly, they should have killed off everyone that was "abducted." Dude is essentially Satan in concept. If he wanted to capture people in the afterlife... why physically abduct them? Just kill them and snag their souls. Hell, they could have killed us to go along with them. It's an afterlife expansion, but it's treated just the same as Outland or Argus. Just another place.

Sure, we could save a few of them, eventually... but not everyone. Give us actual stakes.