Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I wish people would stop acting like Metzens writing was any better than Danusers.

Anything people criticize with Danuser, also applies to Metzen. If you bitch about Danuser, but praise Metzen in the same sentence, then you might need to get your brain checked.

Except you can't apply it to Metzen or Danuser because we have no idea when either story ended and also again this is a ridiculous strawman ad-hominem.

Danuser has clearly showcased with this expansion alone that he is not fit for fight and I don't really think his vision for the next book is going to pan out correctly for a multi billion dollar franchise.

Even if we assert that Late Legion is when Danuser and his Narrative Team started on this awkward journey or if we assert it wasn't until Shadowlands that it was fully seized. Regardless the narrative has been beyond subpar for a multi billion dollar franchise.

Though have we all stopped talking seriously about BFA 2? Because if that's the best we have then this game is doomed.

As long as they stick to one cohesive storyline without adding 2-3 other expansion ideas in the same expansion, we should be good. Let's hope not for a Emerald Nightmare or Azshara/N'zoth situation where stories get shoved in just for hype and excitement when they should pace them out more.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Or the Draenei.

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Well, MoP was also grounded. So there's a range of possibilities. Personally, i'd prefer something 1001 nights style.

Oh yeah you can do a lot with grounded. Just specifically "Etheral Planet Space Expansion" and "Lifelands" are off the table.


Personally I'd like to see Blizz do something big and with the long-term in mind. Actually plan two expansions out and make 10.0 the "calm before the storm" where there's an actual planned storm instead of "we didn't plan a storm so here's N'Zoth in 10.3"

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Sub par.....right @_@

[Makorus]

Except you can't apply it to Metzen or Danuser because we have no idea when either story ended and also again this is a ridiculous strawman ad-hominem.

Danuser has clearly showcased with this expansion alone that he is not fit for fight and I don't really think his vision for the next book is going to pan out correctly for a multi billion dollar franchise.

Even if we assert that Late Legion is when Danuser and his Narrative Team started on this awkward journey or if we assert it wasn't until Shadowlands that it was fully seized. Regardless the narrative has been beyond subpar for a multi billion dollar franchise.



As long as they stick to one cohesive storyline without adding 2-3 other expansion ideas in the same expansion, we should be good. Let's hope not for a Emerald Nightmare or Azshara/N'zoth situation where stories get shoved in just for hype and excitement when they should pace them out more.

Why does it matter when who took over. The fact that you can't tell when Danuser takes over just shows that they are both shoddy writers.

And it's been like that since the start. Warcraft had never had noteworthy writing or story telling. The only difference is that Danuser actually tried to have a story thread. (I mean, sure, they tried that with Garrosh but he literally was a completely different character in every expansion he appeared in lmao so it might as well not count).

Metzen retconned just as much. Metzen struggled just as much with villain motives. Metzen struggled just as much with consistent writing. His self-insert was even more obnoxious.

But sure, he is "old Blizzard" therefore he is perfect.

[Relapses]

Why does it matter when who took over. The fact that you can't tell when Danuser takes over just shows that they are both shoddy writers.

And it's been like that since the start. Warcraft had never had noteworthy writing or story telling. The only difference is that Danuser actually tried to have a story thread. (I mean, sure, they tried that with Garrosh but he literally was a completely different character in every expansion he appeared in lmao so it might as well not count).

Metzen retconned just as much. Metzen struggled just as much with villain motives. Metzen struggled just as much with consistent writing. His self-insert was even more obnoxious.

But sure, he is "old Blizzard" therefore he is perfect.

Blizzard could reanimate the corpses of Shakespeare and Tolkien then have them craft the next 15 expansions worth of lore and there'd still be people on this forum complaining that the "story sucks" because Blizzard failed to buff Mages for the fifth patch in a row. This shallow, vapid, pointlessly cynical community wouldn't know good writing even if it were staring them in the face and even then I'd wager most of them would bitch about "having to read quest text to understand the story," anyway.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Blizzard could reanimate the corpses of Shakespeare and Tolkien then have them craft the next 15 expansions worth of lore and there'd still be people on this forum complaining that the "story sucks" because Blizzard failed to buff Mages for the fifth patch in a row. This shallow, vapid, pointlessly cynical community wouldn't know good writing even if it were staring them in the face and even then I'd wager most of them would bitch about "having to read quest text to understand the story," anyway.

Yes to a degree this is true but some things I do agree with people theres been "Wait why is that happening?"

Its very rare though.

[Sondrelk]

Why does it matter when who took over. The fact that you can't tell when Danuser takes over just shows that they are both shoddy writers.

And it's been like that since the start. Warcraft had never had noteworthy writing or story telling. The only difference is that Danuser actually tried to have a story thread. (I mean, sure, they tried that with Garrosh but he literally was a completely different character in every expansion he appeared in lmao so it might as well not count).

Metzen retconned just as much. Metzen struggled just as much with villain motives. Metzen struggled just as much with consistent writing. His self-insert was even more obnoxious.

But sure, he is "old Blizzard" therefore he is perfect.

Exactly the same applies to most characters though, Sylvanas especially. Looking bakc it's clear that they wanted to build up her actions in Shadowlands, but each expansion felt like a drastic swerve in her characterization, most noticeably BfA Sylvanas feeling like an entirely different character to Legion and SL Sylvanas.
First she is ambigously evil, then she is the most evil character in the game, and suddenly she is back to supposedly just being an idiot.

[Makorus]

Exactly the same applies to most characters though, Sylvanas especially. Looking bakc it's clear that they wanted to build up her actions in Shadowlands, but each expansion felt like a drastic swerve in her characterization, most noticeably BfA Sylvanas feeling like an entirely different character to Legion and SL Sylvanas.
First she is ambigously evil, then she is the most evil character in the game, and suddenly she is back to supposedly just being an idiot.

I mean, to be honest, the only time she feels out of character is in Legion and any of the books.

BfA -> Shadowlands makes logical sense if you disregard any of the novels or short stories.

[Ersula]

I mean not even implied.

They said a grounded expansion. So it's not gonna be space or Lifelands.

They're not exactly as limited as that. What they actually do is alternate between "cosmic/spiritual" & "analog" expansions. While Warlords of Draenor was another planet in an alternate timeline, that was considered an analog, non-cosmic, expansion, because of its wood & bone, sword & sorcery vibe. While Legion was (at first) centered on Azeroth, that featured space-ships, so it was considered "cosmic". Basically its an alternating of how close they aim for the classic tabletop D&D aesthetic. So even taking that into consideration, it could be on another planet, but that planet won't look very "Alien" like Draenor didn't.

But their biggest motif is having the events of the last expansion lead into the next. We have to take existing story threads into consideration. That's why I always point to Alleria's unhealthy pre-occupation with the sunwell. Or perhaps that "black god" the Speaker of Elune described as her evil counterpart.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean, to be honest, the only time she feels out of character is in Legion and any of the books.

BfA -> Shadowlands makes logical sense if you disregard any of the novels or short stories.

I dunno I felt her path is logical or rather it doesn't confuse me. Yeah there's a few hoops to jump through to get it but I don't see it as terrible or whatever word people want to call it. Not like they aren't denying what she has done unlike some people in this forum(Not you).

First she is ambigously evil, then she is the most evil character in the game, and suddenly she is back to supposedly just being an idiot.

Idiot is not the word here, delusional and brainwashed is another and I will say it again. What the Jailer told her about his plans was NOT what he really wanted.

[Ersula]

Metzen retconned just as much. Metzen struggled just as much with villain motives. Metzen struggled just as much with consistent writing. His self-insert was even more obnoxious.

But sure, he is "old Blizzard" therefore he is perfect.

the storyteller can retcon whatever he wants, as long as he makes a satisfying story: Which is not what Danuser did. He made it extremely complicated, had to retcon stuff he himself contributed & there's no measurable consensus in the community that anyone liked any of it. We don't need complicated. The Lich King wasn't complicated & we loved it.

[Makorus]

the storyteller can retcon whatever he wants, as long as he makes a satisfying story: Which is not what Danuser did. He made it extremely complicated, had to retcon stuff he himself contributed & there's no measurable consensus in the community that anyone liked any of it. We don't need complicated. The Lich King wasn't complicated & we loved it.

What exactly is more complicated?

The only retcon that's a bit iffy is the Dreadlord one, but that was kind of expected and rumored anyway.

Other than that, nothings more "complicated". Yes, Frostmourne was not "created" by Kil'jaeden, but actually the Jailer, who wanted to get a foothold on Azeroth. Hardly any more complicated. Makes more sense than it being created by Kil'jaeden anyway, especially with the writers acting like the Scourge and Legion are completely separate entities and, in fact, enemies since after WC3.

That's not even mentioning the fact that the origin of Frostmourne got retconned before: In WC3, Tichondrus says that the Lich King made Frostmourne, while in the Arthas Novel, it turns out, it was actually the Dreadlords.

Aside from that, what retcons are there in Shadowlands, actually? The only other thing I can think of is that Kelthuzad didn't actually care about Arthas, but that is farfetched and insignificant enough that I am not even gonna bring that up as a retcon.

I feel like retcons like Orc Warlocks or the whole Draenei debacle are worse than any of the "retcons" from Shadowlands.

[Vasoka]

Shadowlands is an utter narrative mess which retcons some of the most beloved lore of Warcraft and basically waters down both the Scourge and the Legion to a joke. You have to be on some ultra hard copium and have some really strong mental gymnastics work to even dare call anything that Danuser produced out of his backside during BfA / SL even mildly engaging, let alone "good".

[Palapop]

You´ve got to be kidding right now.

Probably, everyone agrees that this has the best looking art and gear WoW might have ever seen.

lol what?

Don't mix ART and graphic technologies here (eg comparing Elwynn 2004 to Elysian hold 2020)

Some zones and sceneries are pretty, yes (Elysian hold, some of views in Ardenweald....) But that's it. Just pretty.

Def far, far above "the best wow has ever been". lol

Did you ever visit Crystalsong Forest? Nexus? Vash'jr? Arathi Highlands? Tiragarde? Stormsong? Vol'dun (even tho I hate deserts)? Storm Peaks?

If something "looks uglier" because it has less pixels, it doesn't mean it's actually uglier. Imagine all these zones with todays technologies.

Yes- SL is boring and bland.

[Ersula]

What exactly is more complicated?

The only retcon that's a bit iffy is the Dreadlord one, but that was kind of expected and rumored anyway.

Other than that, nothings more "complicated". Yes, Frostmourne was not "created" by Kil'jaeden, but actually the Jailer, who wanted to get a foothold on Azeroth. Hardly any more complicated. Makes more sense than it being created by Kil'jaeden anyway, especially with the writers acting like the Scourge and Legion are completely separate entities and, in fact, enemies since after WC3.

That's not even mentioning the fact that the origin of Frostmourne got retconned before: In WC3, Tichondrus says that the Lich King made Frostmourne, while in the Arthas Novel, it turns out, it was actually the Dreadlords.

Aside from that, what retcons are there in Shadowlands, actually? The only other thing I can think of is that Kelthuzad didn't actually care about Arthas, but that is farfetched and insignificant enough that I am not even gonna bring that up as a retcon.

I feel like retcons like Orc Warlocks or the whole Draenei debacle are worse than any of the "retcons" from Shadowlands.

Literally all that. That's very complicated. But in actuality the two most popular expansions are: Large man in tower. Large man bad. Get to tower. Kill Man. Feel good.

None of this prattling soul splitting shit.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

lol what?

Don't mix ART and graphic technologies here (eg comparing Elwynn 2004 to Elysian hold 2020)

Some zones and sceneries are pretty, yes (Elysian hold, some of views in Ardenweald....) But that's it. Just pretty.

Def far, far above "the best wow has ever been". lol

Did you ever visit Crystalsong Forest? Nexus? Vash'jr? Arathi Highlands? Tiragarde? Stormsong? Vol'dun (even tho I hate deserts)? Storm Peaks?

If something "looks uglier" because it has less pixels, it doesn't mean it's actually uglier. Imagine all these zones with todays technologies.

Yes- SL is boring and bland.

Less pixels does mean less beauty no two ways about it. While I'd prefer Northrend to SL if the graphic power could take it on but I still think visually SL is good but not without its weaknesses (Maldraxxus and well the Maw but some like the dark depressing appeal).

[TheFirstOnes]

lol what?

Don't mix ART and graphic technologies here (eg comparing Elwynn 2004 to Elysian hold 2020)

Some zones and sceneries are pretty, yes (Elysian hold, some of views in Ardenweald....) But that's it. Just pretty.

Def far, far above "the best wow has ever been". lol

Did you ever visit Crystalsong Forest? Nexus? Vash'jr? Arathi Highlands? Tiragarde? Stormsong? Vol'dun (even tho I hate deserts)? Storm Peaks?

If something "looks uglier" because it has less pixels, it doesn't mean it's actually uglier. Imagine all these zones with todays technologies.

Yes- SL is boring and bland.

Art style and graphics go hand in hand, you know that yeah? Eversong LOOKS great yeah, but there is a clear fuckin reason it's not as popular as Suramar, Highmountain, or most other better developed zones...

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Less pixels does mean less beauty no two ways about it. While I'd prefer Northrend to SL if the graphic power could take it on but I still think visually SL is good but not without its weaknesses (Maldraxxus and well the Maw but some like the dark depressing appeal).

Really hope they update Ulduar.

[Khaza-R]

I personally don't think the expansion will be The Dragon Isles at all. I think people got it correct with Legion but ever since then the guesses have been way off.

I think we will get something that is not as expected. Maybe a Xalatath/Ethereal expansion out in space.

Given what they said about after 9.2, we pretty much know its going to be on Azeroth. Although that doesn't mean Dragon Isles.

It also doesn't exclude the Void or Xal'atath being central to the plot. Just that it will likely play out more like a Legion expansion where it possibly culminates in a different world / plane.

“Don’t assume it’s just going to be one thing. There’s storylines building up for the next great book in the Warcraft saga. Some of that groundwork is laid here, but there’s a lot more back on Azeroth we need to get back to, and delve into some storylines and characters there.”

[Palapop]

Less pixels does mean less beauty no two ways about it. While I'd prefer Northrend to SL if the graphic power could take it on but I still think visually SL is good but not without its weaknesses (Maldraxxus and well the Maw but some like the dark depressing appeal).

It does not.

If you want to see which 1 is more beautiful, simply make them in same standards.

It's simply impossible to compare 2 zones just like that.

If you wish to do so- then compare CONCEPT art. But not the final product.

Art style and graphics go hand in hand, you know that yeah? Eversong LOOKS great yeah, but there is a clear fuckin reason it's not as popular as Suramar, Highmountain, or most other better developed zones...

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Really hope they update Ulduar.

Wouldn't call it the same way tbh.

It would be stupid to expect Eversong to look like Suramar (graphic vise). Either re-do both zones in todays standards and then compare/vote.

[TheFirstOnes]

It does not.

If you want to see which 1 is more beautiful, simply make them in same standards.

It's simply impossible to compare 2 zones just like that.

If you wish to do so- then compare CONCEPT art. But not the final product.





Wouldn't call it the same way tbh.

It would be stupid to expect Eversong to look like Suramar (graphic vise). Either re-do both zones in todays standards and then compare/vote.

Today’s standards?

Then just update Eversong.

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Also, it is the same if you’re tryna say that BOTH areas need a damn update