1. #16341
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Pending whatever options we get for Cross Faction play in 10.0 & beyond, there's a decent enough chance that we may not even need to pick a faction for them in the future. In that sense, they could be true allies. Imagine the Kyrian helping us with the threats to Azeroth & beyond, but not having to actually join a faction.

  2. #16342
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
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  3. #16343
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    I tend to be a bit more lenient on my own litmus test for Allied Races, if for no other reason than the "two expansions" rule takes out some strong options like the Taunka & the Jinyu. I instead keep my litmus test as "is this actually a different race or just a customization?" as well as "does the addition of this race help the story proceed in any noticeable way?"

    Covenant Allied Races like the Kyrian & Venthyr absolutely pass both tests in my view.
    That's fair.

    Personally, I see the Allied Race system as used best for what you would see as "customizations." Mag'har and Dark Iron were my favourites, but even Highmountain and Lightforged have their merits, even if they don't pass my test. They're low-resource additions that put a new spin on an existing concept and given us options that wouldn't make sense to simply add to existing options. If they simply add this stuff as customizations, we get awkward additions like the Wildhammer tattoos on Bronzebeard Dwarves.

    New races are best suited as just that: new core races. If we get, say, Ogres, they shouldn't need all the rigamarole of the Allied Races. They should simply be new options for players new and old. Vulpera, I believe, should have fit this mold. And Kul Tiran and Zandalari were overdeveloped.

    Give us those races that already exist that use existing assets and spruce them up a little. Dragonmaw Orcs, Wildhammer Dwarves, Fel Orcs, Frost Dwarves, "fresh" Forsaken, Highbourne, Stromgarde Humans and so on. Take the existing lore and existing models and repackage it with a little flair and there's your Allied Race.

    But expanding customization options seems to be a very low priority. I'm sure this would "cost us a raid tier" or two. But I am completely down with paying a raid tier to get more races and the like.
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-12-21 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #16344
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Pending whatever options we get for Cross Faction play in 10.0 & beyond, there's a decent enough chance that we may not even need to pick a faction for them in the future. In that sense, they could be true allies. Imagine the Kyrian helping us with the threats to Azeroth & beyond, but not having to actually join a faction.
    Cross faction play is still not the same as the AR being neutral. Unless factions are completely removed to the level where you can have your Horde character join Alliance guilds doing what are supposedly Alliance specific things like raiding the opposing faction and such then you are still asking the player to accept that not even the champion of the covenant wasn't enough to have the Night Fae join the Horde, and indeed join the opposing faction.

    It was a massive problem with Nightborne since it asked the player to accept nonsensical story developments. And while that one was especially egregious because of Teldrassil happening right after, similar events could happen again, and just like then you would be asking the player to accept development choices made for the sake of gameplay development be directly at odds with the stated narrative.
    Or indeed, quite simply asking a dedicated Alliance player that loves the Venthyr aesthetic to eat a dick as the race is given to the Horde and they are left with nothing in return.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  5. #16345
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    That's fair.

    Personally, I see the Allied Race system as used best for what you would see as "customizations." Mag'har and Dark Iron were my favourites, but even Highmountain and Lightforged have their merits, even if they don't pass my test. They're low-resource additions that put a new spin on an existing concept and given us options that wouldn't make sense to simply add to existing options. If they simply add this stuff as customizations, we get awkward additions like the Wildhammer tattoos on Bronzebeard Dwarves.

    New races are best suited as just that: new core races. If we get, say, Ogres, they shouldn't need all the rigamarole of the Allied Races. They should simply be new options for players new and old. Vulpera, I believe, should have fit this mold. And Kul Tiran and Zandalari were overdeveloped.

    Give us those races that already exist that use existing assets and spruce them up a little. Dragonmaw Orcs, Wildhammer Dwarves, Fel Orcs, Frost Dwarves, "fresh" Forsaken, Highbourne, Stromgarde Humans and so on. Take the existing lore and existing models and repackage it with a little flair and there's your Allied Race.

    But expanding customization options seems to be a very low priority. I'm sure this would "cost us a raid tier" or two. But I am completely down with paying a raid tier to get more races and the like.
    You bring up some really good points here. Moving something like the Dark Iron Dwarves into customizations not only gives weird combos like Wildhammer Tattoos on a Bronzebeard Dwarf with Dark Iron fire hair (which may look awesome, but kind of destroys the lore), but you'd also lose some of the better flavored racials like the Mole Machine.

    I do wonder in retrospect if this would've been better handled as a true sub-race system where you'd pick "Dwarf", then under Dwarf you'd have options for Bronzebeard, Wildhammer, & Dark Iron (with the latter two unlockable with a non-rep based quest chain). That would give the same customization/racials without having the weird side-combo designs, plus it would be much more extendable to new races as we get them. Playable Eredar? Throw them under the Draenei race as a sub-race. Then you are free & open to take races that don't fit under those specific races (Vulpera, Ethereals, etc) & add them as their own category of race instead.

  6. #16346
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    You bring up some really good points here. Moving something like the Dark Iron Dwarves into customizations not only gives weird combos like Wildhammer Tattoos on a Bronzebeard Dwarf with Dark Iron fire hair (which may look awesome, but kind of destroys the lore), but you'd also lose some of the better flavored racials like the Mole Machine.

    I do wonder in retrospect if this would've been better handled as a true sub-race system where you'd pick "Dwarf", then under Dwarf you'd have options for Bronzebeard, Wildhammer, & Dark Iron (with the latter two unlockable with a non-rep based quest chain). That would give the same customization/racials without having the weird side-combo designs, plus it would be much more extendable to new races as we get them. Playable Eredar? Throw them under the Draenei race as a sub-race. Then you are free & open to take races that don't fit under those specific races (Vulpera, Ethereals, etc) & add them as their own category of race instead.
    That would be "better" in many ways, but it would put a lot of pressure on Blizzard to make subraces for every single race.

    And of course, even being generous and bundling stuff like Velves under Night Elves, that still leaves stuff like Vulpera as complete outliers that don't fit under any core race, or indeed possible highly requested ones like Ankoan/Jinyu.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #16347
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That would be "better" in many ways, but it would put a lot of pressure on Blizzard to make subraces for every single race.

    And of course, even being generous and bundling stuff like Velves under Night Elves, that still leaves stuff like Vulpera as complete outliers that don't fit under any core race, or indeed possible highly requested ones like Ankoan/Jinyu.
    On that note... it would be awesome to have High Elves with Void and Blood under them. High Elven options being all of the shared stuff without the exclusives. And being able to choose "High Elf" as a neutral race, like Pandaren, but limiting your customization options. This would also let Blizzard go a little crazier with the Blood Elf customizations.

    And functionally, most already have subraces. I see no issue with putting pressure on to expand our options further.
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-12-21 at 07:17 PM.

  8. #16348
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Cross faction play is still not the same as the AR being neutral. Unless factions are completely removed to the level where you can have your Horde character join Alliance guilds doing what are supposedly Alliance specific things like raiding the opposing faction and such then you are still asking the player to accept that not even the champion of the covenant wasn't enough to have the Night Fae join the Horde, and indeed join the opposing faction.

    It was a massive problem with Nightborne since it asked the player to accept nonsensical story developments. And while that one was especially egregious because of Teldrassil happening right after, similar events could happen again, and just like then you would be asking the player to accept development choices made for the sake of gameplay development be directly at odds with the stated narrative.
    Or indeed, quite simply asking a dedicated Alliance player that loves the Venthyr aesthetic to eat a dick as the race is given to the Horde and they are left with nothing in return.
    That's somewhat what I mean. There are a handful of ways cross-faction play might happen...some affecting the story while others don't. Pending how Blizz opts to do cross faction play, there are a handful of situations where racial loyalty doesn't matter as much. If factions are dissolved, then there's no reason for new races to choose a faction (aside from old raids/zones). If player characters are generally removed from factions a la Jaina/Thrall working together, there still isn't a ton of reason to force a faction on new races...after all, we work with non-faction NPCs all the time. Such a setup would avoid things like the Nightborne/Mechagnomes/Highmountain Tauren being forced to go against a side that helped them & allow Blizz to give out races as they wish rather than needing a constant set of two each time for fairness.

    For past faction-based zones/instances, you could have Chromie or an NPC give them a default option that can be switched. For future faction-based conflicts...honestly, that can of worms has been opened enough times, we don't need another faction war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That would be "better" in many ways, but it would put a lot of pressure on Blizzard to make subraces for every single race.

    And of course, even being generous and bundling stuff like Velves under Night Elves, that still leaves stuff like Vulpera as complete outliers that don't fit under any core race, or indeed possible highly requested ones like Ankoan/Jinyu.
    There would definitely be some pressure on Blizz to make subraces for every race, but that pressure has already been there. Since the introduction of the Allied Race system, there have been quite a few people trying to equate an Allied Race for each Core Race. There's often threads asking what the Worgen/Forsaken/Pandaren Allied Races should be in order to complete the first round of ARs...I just responded to one yesterday. That pressure was set up from the moment the system was announced.

    As for Vulpera not fitting under any category...I'd argue that shows somewhat how the Allied Race system changed & makes an argument that Vulpera should perhaps be their own category. They don't share much at all in common with the Goblins their frame came from...animations are different, stories are unrelated, personalities are way different. If anything, the should set up a better differentiation between what an Allied Race is vs. a Core Race where that differentiation really got muddied by the end of BfA.

  9. #16349
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Depends on the Allied Races. I have a personal litmus test for my interest in them: have they played significant roles in at least two expansions? If so, sign me up. I don't like these asspull rep-grind-of-the-patch additions.
    The Shadowlands races are a good idea, but why they care about the world of the living would need to be developed. The Dreadlords going back & forth between the veil caused all this in the first place so I can't imagine many would think letting people come & go as they please would be allowed.

    Considering the latest build has new Sylvanas clicky lines, it seems like she's really sticking around: Perhaps as faction leader of undead elves? The Lilian/Calia scene at the end of BFA does feel like an allied race quest: complete with unique racial mount.

  10. #16350
    Alright, real talk. When do you ppl think they'll announce 10.0? And in what manner? Given that xpacs were always announced at Blizzcon / Gamescon so far.

  11. #16351
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    Alright, real talk. When do you ppl think they'll announce 10.0? And in what manner? Given that xpacs were always announced at Blizzcon / Gamescon so far.
    Late feb/March, after 9.2 release, big announcement stream.


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  12. #16352
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Late feb/March, after 9.2 release, big announcement stream.
    With what potential release date?

  13. #16353
    They are so far behind I doubt they even have a release date mentioned until Q3-Q4 at the earliest
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  14. #16354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    Alright, real talk. When do you ppl think they'll announce 10.0? And in what manner? Given that xpacs were always announced at Blizzcon / Gamescon so far.
    After 9.2 Launch which would be in Jan/Feb and then right after Zovaal Cinematic/2 weeks they will announce the Big Future of Warcraft stream where they will go over 10.0/Mobile Games and Global Battle Net for World of Warcraft. (Most likely Early March or March in general)

    Launch will be in Q4 2022 and the expansion will most likely have System Design Issues and a Narrative collapse due to panic and needing to appeal to everyone while having features and story elements that can hook the audience back into the game creating a narrative akin to BFA 2.0.
    I no longer reply to quotations beyond if you're asking a genuine question or have a non-confrontational stance.


  15. #16355
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Yep. The WarCraft story is best when it is Big, Dumb, and Fun.

    The franchise is not the best place for small, personal stories.
    Nor is it apt for complex, interweaving "clever" narratives with twists and turns, mysteries and reveals.
    Nor is it apt for depressing, maudlin melodrama.

    Reverse course on all these fronts, and it might again begin to resemble the WarCraft that captured our hearts nearly three decades ago.
    I still can’t get over “the jailer is cunning and deceptive” when he was always “I shall remake reality and any resistance will be wiped out and forced to serve”

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Maybe it sucked for you, but mechanically speaking, I had a ton of fun on my BM Hunter. I could jump and move and run all over the place like a spazz and still play my entire rotation. It was the first expansion in a while I got back into raiding too.

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    Which is depressing, considering the actual amount of time since the world has properly been updated.

    Vanilla WoW released in 2004 -> Cataclysm released in 2010 -> Here we are at the end of 2021 with only sporadic updates to the world.

    Yeah... not very great. Soon we'll have gone twice as long as the Vanilla to Cata gap without a world revamp.
    My monk had nothing but fun with chi explosion and clones for at least one boss every raid

    We will get a revamp at one point even if it’s just a few zones at a time and it will use the zidormii phasing which I think is the best way to do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    Alright, real talk. When do you ppl think they'll announce 10.0? And in what manner? Given that xpacs were always announced at Blizzcon / Gamescon so far.
    Blizzconline replacement
    Around March
    If they don’t pull a 9.3 mini patch then it will be mid November
    If they do use 9.3 to help then March 2022 at the earliest

  16. #16356
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    Alright, real talk. When do you ppl think they'll announce 10.0? And in what manner? Given that xpacs were always announced at Blizzcon / Gamescon so far.
    Real talk is you will keep getting same set of answers, because no one knows and everyone is guessing.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  17. #16357
    Orly? I had no idea that we're guessing. It's called speculation and it's interesting to hear what other people think. Way to go stating the obvious though.

    Anyway, even more real talk. What's the chance the next xpac doesn't come in 2022, but instead comes in 2023 due to the overall delays and scandals? What do you guys think?

  18. #16358
    I would love to be wrong, but i think there's no way in hell they put out an xpack in 2022. They have had a constant spree of people quitting (far beyond reported big names) and it's very hard to replace people right now. Going to be one of the most brutal end of xpack cycles ever and a lot is riding on 10.0 both 1) being good and 2) being able to generate quicker patches
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  19. #16359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    With what potential release date?
    9.2 has 18th Anniversary event, which at least tell us Blizzard is not sure about 2022 release.

    Smaller or bigger, all that matter is expansion is complete. Worst case scenario it would be ready for early 2023, but they will push it for Christmas '22. Quick release matter for patches, but expac is always hard reset. Long wait doesn't affect initial hype at all, just remember WoD or Legion.

    Anyway, any prediction for release date is completely pointless. We don't know how early 10.0 production was affected by lockdown/scandal mess. We don't know if 10.0 is usual expac or some revamp. Expac usually land ~year after last big patch, although early Spring for expac would be weird. I'll rather have it for Christmas or wait for Summer.

  20. #16360
    And the general consensus / speculation so far is that it's dragon isles due to the dragon bundle?

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