Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Miffinat0r]

There are few things I've read on this website that were not written with active malice in mind that I've disagreed with more. I can write a master's thesis on how abhorrent systems design has been in Shadowlands -- I actually miss BfA's systems by comparison. Shadowlands is the diet version of BfA systems, which were themselves the diet version of Legion systems. Conduits and soulbinds may have been the single largest waste of developer resources in the history of the game, power progression is horribly done, and domination sockets are still awful to this day.

At least corruption and essences had the decency to be fun for some specs. Shadowlands are largely non-interactive invisible power that you don't notice on an individual attack but you sure as hell notice on the damage meters. This isn't even getting into tying player power into some of the most unfun grinds the game has ever had (largely because combat is so bad at this point, but also because Korthia was a horribly designed zone and Torghast has had nothing but problems since the redesigned it after the Shadowlands alpha).

Again this is Ion. Ion had one good expansion, and had one great patch in that expansion. Since then people have been telling him repeatedly how good Legion was and so the expansion design has been all about Legion systems. Since 2016 WoW has had next to no innovative fun feature. Where there are gaps for casual players Ion ignored them in leiu for a more hardcore base.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Again this is Ion. Ion had one good expansion, and had one great patch in that expansion. Since then people have been telling him repeatedly how good Legion was and so the expansion design has been all about Legion systems. Since 2016 WoW has had next to no innovative fun feature. Where there are gaps for casual players Ion ignored them in leiu for a more hardcore base.

Legion had its own share of problems so lets not whitewash history here. Like it had plenty of whining to go around. It wasn't some perfect expansion

[Polybius]

Still doubt ED is the next xpac even with the datamine. Thinking it’ll be a zone with a tie in to Zereth facilities (Zereth Vitae? idfk). Just feels strange to give focus to one dragonflight despite the buildup to multiple flights in BFA. Even stranger, a redo of Ardenweald.

[Miffinat0r]

Legion had its own share of problems so lets not whitewash history here. Like it had plenty of whining to go around. It wasn't some perfect expansion

Not trying to whitewash--just pointing out the community as a whole tells Ion all the time how good Legion was.

Whether it's good or not--well that's different.

[Polybius]

Not trying to whitewash--just pointing out the community as a whole tells Ion all the time how good Legion was.

Whether it's good or not--well that's different.

Tbf he was good at Raid deisgn. Otherwise heck him. He’s an esports enabler.

[Miffinat0r]

Tbf he was good at Raid deisgn. Otherwise heck him. He’s an esports enabler.

Completely agree. That's why I asked when did raiding become the first thing WoW cares about.

[Dracullus]

There are few things I've read on this website that were not written with active malice in mind that I've disagreed with more. I can write a master's thesis on how abhorrent systems design has been in Shadowlands -- I actually miss BfA's systems by comparison. Shadowlands is the diet version of BfA systems, which were themselves the diet version of Legion systems. Conduits and soulbinds may have been the single largest waste of developer resources in the history of the game, power progression is horribly done, and domination sockets are still awful to this day.

At least corruption and essences had the decency to be fun for some specs. Shadowlands are largely non-interactive invisible power that you don't notice on an individual attack but you sure as hell notice on the damage meters. This isn't even getting into tying player power into some of the most unfun grinds the game has ever had (largely because combat is so bad at this point, but also because Korthia was a horribly designed zone and Torghast has had nothing but problems since the redesigned it after the Shadowlands alpha).

Well, everyone has right for his opinion, personally I can't see how BfA system could be better in any shape of form, it was total mess. SL in comparison:

- doesn't require any substantial grind, although it sucked Torghast is only major source for ash (I hope 9.2 completely change that, I don't know if you only upgrade lego in new zone or build from scratch)
- most stuff like conduits and recipes drop from dungeon/raid bosses, so are part of gearing routine anyway
- extra stuff (2xTorghast + weekly renown quests) took like 2-3 hours per week, nowhere near clearing world quests for AP and chaining islands (not to mention early Legion which was even bigger grind); also Torghast part only last few resets
- I don't see conduits/suilbinds less or more interesting than BfA/Legion traits or even many pre-MoP talents, problem was you didn't earn them so they feel even more pointless
- similar, new skills are mixed bag, for sure more interesting than BfAs cause they are 4 for each spec; for me it's same case as Legion artifact skills - some fun, some neutral, some bad; opinion depend on which is your main spec
- most important - SL at least is consistent and don't reinvent the wheel every patch like in BfA; in second season they added bastardized version tier sets; in third season we will have proper tier sets, but renown is finished, there is not even some new gimmick for player power like netherlight crucible.

Combat is literally best thing about WoW (besides ton of content put inside over years - that is often underused!), I don't know what are you smoking there. Same with Korthia - it's ugly and without flying, but rares and gearing are great here, shame that upgrade system won't carry to ZM.

But even if you hate Korthia and 9.0 zones, grind is basically non-existent compared to BfA, Legion and even early MoP.

Completely agree. That's why I asked when did raiding become the first thing WoW cares about.

Better question is when are these magical times when raiding wasn't most important thing. In old expansions beside raid you get few dailies and dungeons that served as gearing for raid anyway. I agree that WoW still needs more casual content, but let's not pretend there is something to find in the past.

[Polybius]

Well, everyone has right for his opinion, personally I can't see how BfA system could be better in any shape of form, it was total mess. SL in comparison:

- doesn't require any substantial grind, although it sucked Torghast is only major source for ash (I hope 9.2 completely change that, I don't know if you only upgrade lego in new zone or build from scratch)
- most stuff like conduits and recipes drop from dungeon/raid bosses, so are part of gearing routine anyway
- extra stuff (2xTorghast + weekly renown quests) took like 2-3 hours per week, nowhere near clearing world quests for AP and chaining islands (not to mention early Legion which was even bigger grind); also Torghast part only last few resets
- I don't see conduits/suilbinds less or more interesting than BfA/Legion traits or even many pre-MoP talents, problem was you didn't earn them so they feel even more pointless
- similar, new skills are mixed bag, for sure more interesting than BfAs cause they are 4 for each spec; for me it's same case as Legion artifact skills - some fun, some neutral, some bad; opinion depend on which is your main spec
- most important - SL at least is consistent and don't reinvent the wheel every patch like in BfA; in second season they added bastardized version tier sets; in third season we will have proper tier sets, but renown is finished, there is not even some new gimmick for player power like netherlight crucible.

Combat is literally best thing about WoW (besides ton of content put inside over years - that is often underused!), I don't know what are you smoking there. Same with Korthia - it's ugly and without flying, but rares and gearing are great here, shame that upgrade system won't carry to ZM.

But even if you hate Korthia and 9.0 zones, grind is basically non-existent compared to BfA, Legion and even early MoP.



Better question is when are these magical times when raiding wasn't most important thing. In old expansions beside raid you get few dailies and dungeons that served as gearing for raid anyway. I agree that WoW still needs more casual content, but let's not pretend there is something to find in the past.

WoW endgame was more of a journey where you’d get upgrades from different venues, including crafting.

Atm there’s a gogo mentality thanks to its systems and gear treadmill. It’s a quick burnout trying to play catch-up.

[Raetary]

I think people are too hung up on the drake being an emerald drake.

We only have a single green drake mount in the game, compared to a dozen of red, blue, black and purple colorations.
So its probably just a decision to add some extra drake mount variety.

[Sondrelk]

WoW endgame was more of a journey where you’d get upgrades from different venues, including crafting.

Atm there’s a gogo mentality thanks to its systems and gear treadmill. It’s a quick burnout trying to play catch-up.

That was only really in Vanilla though, and while there was some of the mentality left in TBC it was long gone by the time you got into WotLK.

I suppose the game is trying to get back to that mentality ever since Legion, but the playerbase is adamantly against the kind of game that has even a tiny amount of grind for anything.

[Polybius]

I think people are too hung up on the drake being an emerald drake.

We only have a single green drake mount in the game, compared to a dozen of red, blue, black and purple colorations.
So its probably just a decision to add some extra drake mount variety.

So much this^

There was a horse for CE in BfA. Wasn’t the only horse *snickers*

[Sondrelk]

I think people are too hung up on the drake being an emerald drake.

We only have a single green drake mount in the game, compared to a dozen of red, blue, black and purple colorations.
So its probably just a decision to add some extra drake mount variety.

If I were to put my armchair Dev hat on I would assume we are likely to get the green drake mount as a collector's edition since the original green drake mount is one of the rarest mounts in the game, and the other 4 colorations are likely going to be reputation rewards or similar.

- - - Updated - - -

Or rather, emerald dragon mount as collectors edition, and the rest of the mounts in places similar to the WotLK dragons. Red from dungeon hero etc.

[Polybius]

That was only really in Vanilla though, and while there was some of the mentality left in TBC it was long gone by the time you got into WotLK.

I suppose the game is trying to get back to that mentality ever since Legion, but the playerbase is adamantly against the kind of game that has even a tiny amount of grind for anything.

I thought it worked fine in Wotlk-WoD. It wasn’t until Legion where they tried to replicate all these mobile game grinds. They went all out in BFA on top of making armor traits RNG.

[TheFirstOnes]

My speculation, hope y'all like it. Gonna make it sound official cause why not lol

10.0: idfk...something something Azeroth related or new lol

9.2 plot synopsis speculation: Despite winning the battle, Zovaal may have won the war. Our battle against the enemy of existence itself within the Heart of Eternity and the very origin of Life, Death, and the eternal cycle between those forces (and the others kinda, though Death represents Eternity and that cycle tbf) results in Zovaal fatally wounding Azeroth, and without the power to heal her (unlike with BFA, where we kinda did), all of existence is doomed to collapse through the inevitability of Eternity's end. This is the horrible truth of existence, without a pattern, and without reality, the forces become nothing but formless, chaotic specimens, and everything the First Ones thought of into the design, as their will demands, every cycle, every law, etc etc is gone...forever. The Warcraft Saga goes into 10.0 as both a revamp for the world, and a new beginning for the Heroes, and a new mission in mind: To bring back balance to the forces and the cycle, so that a new Eternal cycle of PEACE occurs for all of existence.

But first, personal scores must be settled, and Azeroth's Champions must find a way to heal Azeroth. But how?

prepatch can be named Dawn of a new age idfk...

10.0 prepatch visuals: Starting zones for every race updated, capitals are also updated, Elemental and cosmic attacks occur across old world land marks. More zones to be updated during future patches and expansions to ease up on Artist fatigue. New BG? Idk...maybe not.

10.0 prepatch scenario: Stormwind invasion with Lothraxion, etc. Turalyon loses his will to fight as Domination magics have expanded into the Light.

10.0 zone: Dragon Isles. 5 new zones on the backside of Azeroth, each representing a flight in some form.

10.1: Odyn sees we are trying to form a new flight and wants to stop us, same with Helya and they both attack us, we beat them both at Ulduar or so and tell them to piss off.

10.2: Chromatus is freed and the Void are tryna fuck em over into twilight, but so are the Infinite flights, which messes up the balance for this freed Behemoth. We gotta kill em.

10.3: We learn of Life stuff, etc etc.

11.0: Realms of Life expac, or Order. One of the two...leading into Zereth Vitae or Ordos.

[Polybius]

My speculation, hope y'all like it. Gonna make it sound official cause why not lol

10.0: idfk...something something Azeroth related or new lol

9.2 plot synopsis speculation: Despite winning the battle, Zovaal may have won the war. Our battle against the enemy of existence itself within the Heart of Eternity and the very origin of Life, Death, and the eternal cycle between those forces (and the others kinda, though Death represents Eternity and that cycle tbf) results in Zovaal fatally wounding Azeroth, and without the power to heal her (unlike with BFA, where we kinda did), all of existence is doomed to collapse through the inevitability of Eternity's end. This is the horrible truth of existence, without a pattern, and without reality, the forces become nothing but formless, chaotic specimens, and everything the First Ones thought of into the design, as their will demands, every cycle, every law, etc etc is gone...forever. The Warcraft Saga goes into 10.0 as both a revamp for the world, and a new beginning for the Heroes, and a new mission in mind: To bring back balance to the forces and the cycle, so that a new Eternal cycle of PEACE occurs for all of existence.

But first, personal scores must be settled, and Azeroth's Champions must find a way to heal Azeroth. But how?

prepatch can be named Dawn of a new age idfk...

10.0 prepatch visuals: Starting zones for every race updated, capitals are also updated, Elemental and cosmic attacks occur across old world land marks. More zones to be updated during future patches and expansions to ease up on Artist fatigue. New BG? Idk...maybe not.

10.0 prepatch scenario: Stormwind invasion with Lothraxion, etc. Turalyon loses his will to fight as Domination magics have expanded into the Light.

10.0 zone: Dragon Isles. 5 new zones on the backside of Azeroth, each representing a flight in some form.

10.1: Odyn sees we are trying to form a new flight and wants to stop us, same with Helya and they both attack us, we beat them both at Ulduar or so and tell them to piss off.

10.2: Chromatus is freed and the Void are tryna fuck em over into twilight, but so are the Infinite flights, which messes up the balance for this freed Behemoth. We gotta kill em.

10.3: We learn of Life stuff, etc etc.

11.0: Realms of Life expac, or Order. One of the two...leading into Zereth Vitae.

Oh man I had forgotten about Chromatus. He was supposed to be in Cata.

[Sondrelk]

I thought it worked fine in Wotlk-WoD. It wasn’t until Legion where they tried to replicate all these mobile game grinds. They went all out in BFA on top of making armor traits RNG.

So systems outside of raid worked fine, even in the expansion that gave the player 3-4 quests tied to the raid and absolutely nothing else of value to take inside?

Also, what are you talking about with armor traits in BfA being RNG? Every single piece of Azerite had fixed traits.
If you are going to shittalk BfA at least do it with problems that were real and not made up.

[Ersula]

Realms of Life expac, or Order. One of the two...leading into Zereth Vitae or Ordos.

The idea there are equivalents to Zareth Mortis pretty much ignore the all the lore in 9.2 about all living things originating from Zareth Mortis. If all life originates from Zareth Mortis wtf would a Zareth Vitae even do?

But first, personal scores must be settled, and Azeroth's Champions must find a way to heal Azeroth. But how?

If you need a world soul to use the sepulcher, just use Zovaal's soul to fix everything he broke. Problem solved.

[Raetary]

pretty much ignore the all the lore in 9.2 about all living things originating from Zareth Mortis.

It doesn't ignore any such lore, as that lore doesn't exist.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Is my ceilling damaged or... is full of leaks around here?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Is my ceilling damaged or... is full of leaks around here?

Not even "good" leaks. It has been the same repeatedly banner user creating numerous burner accounts spamming the same shit over and over, for the most part.