Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

Ah my bad, I misread thinking you said 3 wow announcements.

I mean they could pull 3 WoW announcements but if they announce 9.2.5 then they can’t announce a lot of what is coming because those are normally where they fix the issues they cause in patches

[TBCCLOL]

But anyway, yeah. Black dragons as a race will never happen, for the same reasons Worgens never happened. It's too impractical and the number of compromises they would have to make in order for it to work would just render the whole idea pointless.

Big true idd

[TheFirstOnes]

They really tryna soft reboot WoW huh?

[Jokubas]

I'll elaborate on the reason I think the black dragon race (if it's the leak I think we're talking about) sounds plausible to me. It's all about precedents.
1) Worgen set a precedent for a race with two forms.
2) Demon Hunter set a precedent for race customization that is not available to the normal members of that race.
3) One of the reasons Blizzard was excited for the new customization was because it made it a lot easier for them to break the standard mold.
4) Animations were mostly homogenized awhile back when it comes to combat.

Putting that together, it's not hard to imagine that the sort of the work they did on Demon Hunter, without the burden of class balance, and with a much more open customization system on the dev end, could be used to make a "race" that's basically deluxe customization for any other race. Also, black dragons come in with a solid built-in story hook of "rebuilding the black dragonflight while struggling with their dark past."

While I've been crossing my fingers that the unusual body elements the new customization allows would be used for things like two-headed ogres or naga tails, the dragon thing at least is consistent with that improved capability.

[She of Three Faces]

So what about the dragon mount pack they released before that..? Yeah 10.0 is 100% about dragonS OR dragons just play a big role in the story.

If you think about it, most of the dragons featured in the pack aren't true dragons, they mostly just resemble dragons in form. I don't think the pack means anything at all as to the theme of the next expansion. Packs are just bundles promoted to sell discounted mounts and pets. They had cat bundle some time ago selling all the cat mounts. I do, however believe that dragons will be major players in it. There are a lot of hints that imply it to be so. Did you read the part where I said I think the expansion is going to be about Dragons and the dragon isle, but not in totality? I think there will elements of life and renewal as well as rebuilding. It could be a neat expansion if they do it right.

[Luck4]

Do you guys think that other than announcing/promoting Activision/Blizzard titles on E3, Xbox/Microsoft will change anything on the company going forward?

People used to say that was Activision who destroyed the "good" old Blizzard, but how much truth is on that? I think now we're going to find out.

Btw, Microsoft is on a wild hunt, first Bethesda, now Activision Blizzard, who's next? EA? Ubisoft? Geez...

----

Back on the thread...

I dunno guys, I still see very few reasons for why everyone thinks the next expansion is Dragon Isles. I mean, despite all the leaks, I'm barely seeing any dragon hints on the game.

The only good ones that I can think of are that pirate dragon model from Taza'vesh and the IE quest about Dragon Isles. I'm not even counting the Emerald Drake because, in my opinion, that drake is hinting more towards Lifelands/Gardens of Life/Emerald Dream than Dragon Isles.

[Jokubas]

Shadowlands was indeed fake when I made this account, because it was in response to the fake leak with ghostly ships in Stormwind Harbour that everybody gobbled up.

That screenshot is a good way to illustrate how the whole leak culture keeps changing.

Way back in the beginning, getting a leak at all basically meant it was real. There was no reputation around it, so no one really went out of their way to fake things. Oh there were a few jokes, but they tended to be pretty sloppy and intentionally humorous. If you saw a leak, it was probably real.

When the Mists of Pandaria trademark came out, fake trademarks wasn't really a thing. Afterward it inspired so many that Blizzard seemed to have found a way to just hide the real ones which is the only thing that really stopped those. In other fandoms I hang out in, though, no one bothers to fake trademarks, so they're still a real leak.

Before that Stormwind Harbor thing, fake cutscene screencaps weren't really a thing (and they still really aren't). That makes something notable all on its own. I'm not sure anything like that ever turned out to be real, but there's good reason to see it, especially at the time, as something on a different level.

It's really unfortunate that World of Warcraft's leaks have become such an infamous thing, because it means people actively try to make better and better fake ones. It's to the point where another leak tradition is the thread that asks if we've ever gotten a real one. Yeah, there's a real one pretty much every time, but every time they get drowned out by a larger and potentially better made deluge of fakes.

[Shadochi]

Do you guys think that other than announcing/promoting Activision/Blizzard titles on E3, Xbox/Microsoft will change anything on the company going forward?

People used to say that was Activision who destroyed the "good" old Blizzard, but how much truth is on that? I think now we're going to find out.

Microsoft is on a wild hunt, first then Bethesda, now Activision Blizzard, who's next? EA? Ubisoft?

----

Back on the thread...

I dunno guys, I still see very few reasons for why everyone thinks the next expansion is Dragon Isles. I mean, despite all the leaks, I'm barely seeing any dragon hints on the game.

The only good ones that I can think of are that pirate dragon model from Taza'vesh and the IE quest about Dragon Isles. I'm not even counting the Emerald Drake because, in my opinion, that drake is hinting more towards Lifelands/Gardens of Life/Emerald Dream than Dragon Isles.

From what I read from various threads and reddit post comments, seems like MS Games does give leeway to acquired studios to take the time to deliver the product (cant remember exactly which studios and games were mentions), cutting short term profits for better long term returns.
But I don't personally see how this could be bad seeing the direction Acti-Blizz was heading. It will either help the studios get back up or just speed up the direction they were already going in, if it was the second I doubt even MS would just throw 70 mil.
It will probably not be until the next cycle of releases that we see noticeable changes. Don't know when the deal should be finalized. But come a patch season or two across all products we will hopefully be seeing effects. And hey maybe even earlier if Blizz employees see this as a good thing and it boosts morale.

- - - Updated - - -

That screenshot is a good way to illustrate how the whole leak culture keeps changing.

Way back in the beginning, getting a leak at all basically meant it was real. There was no reputation around it, so no one really went out of their way to fake things. Oh there were a few jokes, but they tended to be pretty sloppy and intentionally humorous. If you saw a leak, it was probably real.

When the Mists of Pandaria trademark came out, fake trademarks wasn't really a thing. Afterward it inspired so many that Blizzard seemed to have found a way to just hide the real ones which is the only thing that really stopped those. In other fandoms I hang out in, though, no one bothers to fake trademarks, so they're still a real leak.

Before that Stormwind Harbor thing, fake cutscene screencaps weren't really a thing (and they still really aren't). That makes something notable all on its own. I'm not sure anything like that ever turned out to be real, but there's good reason to see it, especially at the time, as something on a different level.

It's really unfortunate that World of Warcraft's leaks have become such an infamous thing, because it means people actively try to make better and better fake ones. It's to the point where another leak tradition is the thread that asks if we've ever gotten a real one. Yeah, there's a real one pretty much every time, but every time they get drowned out by a larger and potentially better made deluge of fakes.

But one of the first "leaks" has been The List that people thought was real but was an elaborate fake list based on info like lore not yet explored, zones cut from dev or not visited yet

[Luck4]

And hey maybe even earlier if Blizz employees see this as a good thing and it boosts morale.

This is a good point which I missed.

[Jokubas]

Do you guys think that other than announcing/promoting Activision/Blizzard titles on E3, Xbox/Microsoft will change anything on the company going forward?

People were really worried when Microsoft bought Minecraft, but as far as I can tell they basically did nothing to them. This actually bothered me because an issue I had with Mojang was how glacial their development had become, and was hoping Minecraft would encourage them to have a better pace (and get around to adding chairs >_>).

People used to say that was Activision who destroyed the "good" old Blizzard, but how much truth is on that? I think now we're going to find out.

I've always thought that was exaggerated. Having an owner with a different culture breathing down your neck is rarely a good thing, but even when Blizzard was still mostly acting like Blizzard, there seemed to be a slow shift of them losing old talent and not training new ones with their creative perspective. I even think this was on purpose to an extent, as they wanted new ideas and new perspectives, but I think they went a little too far with it and there basically isn't a "Blizzard style" anymore.

I dunno guys, I still see very few reasons for why everyone thinks the next expansion is Dragon Isles. I mean, despite all the leaks, I'm barely seeing any dragon hints on the game.

The only good ones that I can think of are that pirate dragon model from Taza'vesh and the IE quest about Dragon Isles. I'm not even counting the Emerald Drake because, in my opinion, that drake is hinting more towards Lifelands/Gardens of Life/Emerald Dream than Dragon Isles.

Yeah, I'm not really sure. The direct references to the Dragon Isles are brought up a lot, but honestly they remind me a lot of the references made to Farahlon in later Warlords of Draenor. Some of it feels more like sly fandom references to cut or unused content, not teases for the future. I'm also reminded of the Deaths of Chromie. That made a lot of people expect a dragon expansion (I think it made me wonder), especially with the whole joke about what level we should be when those events take place, but that didn't end up happening. Sometimes it's hard to tell what's a joke, what's a tease, what might just be further off in the future, or whether something unforeseen happened (if I recall, Wrathion's warning in Mists of Pandaria really was supposed to lead into Legion, but Warlords of Draenor got slotted in).

[Shadochi]

This is a good point which I missed.

Yes, I feel like with all the news going on about the sale people forget to think about the immediate people impact of the information.

[Luck4]

People were really worried when Microsoft bought Minecraft, but as far as I can tell they basically did nothing to them. This actually bothered me because an issue I had with Mojang was how slow their development had become, and was hoping Minecraft would encourage them to have a better pace (and get around to adding chairs >_>).

So, more content drought going forward.

I've always thought that was exaggerated. Having an owner with a different culture breathing down your neck is rarely a good thing, but even when Blizzard was still mostly acting like Blizzard, there seemed to be a slow shift of them losing old talent and not training new ones with their creative perspective. I even think this was on purpose to an extent, as they wanted new ideas and new perspectives, but I think they went a little too far with it and there basically isn't a "Blizzard style" anymore.

Yeah, I kinda agree. I mean, I really doubt Blizzard will stop putting new stuff on the store every couple of months, or are gonna stop designing their games around "daily log-in habits".

Yeah, I'm not really sure. The direct references to the Dragon Isles are brought up a lot, but honestly they remind me a lot of the references made to Farahlon in later Warlords of Draenor. Some of it feels more like sly fandom references to cut or unused content, not teases for the future. I'm also reminded of the Deaths of Chromie. That made a lot of people expect a dragon expansion (I think it made me wonder), especially with the whole joke about what level we should be when those events take place, but that didn't end up happening. Sometimes it's hard to tell what's a joke, what's a tease, what might just be further off in the future, or whether something unforeseen happened (if I recall, Wrathion's warning in Mists of Pandaria really was supposed to lead into Legion, but Warlords of Draenor got slotted in).

This is an interesting take, I wouldn't be surprised if 10.0 ends being something that nobody or very few people was expecting.

[Jokubas]

Yeah, I kinda agree. I mean, I really doubt Blizzard will stop putting new stuff on the store every couple of months, or are gonna stop designing their games around "daily log-in habits".

I've said before that something in the ogres' favor is that they're a sort of evergreen race. They could be made playable in most expansions because they're basically always around. They even showed up in Shadowlands with Exile's Reach. However, it's also a bit of a drawback. Unlike, say, Demon Hunter, there's not a story or expansion theme that's really going to cut them to the front of the line. They can always be safely pushed back.

However, I'm honestly nervous there's something else that's prevented them from becoming playable. Relatively early on in the game's life, there was a popular quote from Chris Metzen where he said he wanted playable goblins, ogres, and naga. We got goblins not that long afterward and it seemed like good news for ogre and naga fans, but now it's been a decade or more and even that small list hasn't been continued.

I'm a little worried that we're in a sort of self-fulfilling situation where, because ogres and naga haven't been playable, then people don't associate them strongly with Warcraft. These people get hired, then when they work on Warcraft, they have no particular reason to focus on making these races playable, so they continue to not be associated with Warcraft. However, new things these people bring with them might become part of Warcraft instead.

I met some younger Blizzard employees a little while back and, I don't want to sound judgmental, but they basically came across like they were hired directly from the forums. They seemed to understand the games they were working on through the lens of memes more than the actual creative process. They seemed like nice people, but it's just a different situation than it used to be.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I've said before that something in the ogres' favor is that they're a sort of evergreen race. They could be made playable in most expansions because they're basically always around. They even showed up in Shadowlands with Exile's Reach. However, it's also a bit of a drawback. Unlike, say, Demon Hunter, there's not a story or expansion theme that's really going to cut them to the front of the line. They can always be safely pushed back.

However, I'm honestly nervous there's something else that's prevented them from becoming playable. Relatively early on in the game's life, there was a popular quote from Chris Metzen where he said he wanted playable goblins, ogres, and naga. We got goblins not that long afterward and it seemed like good news for ogre and naga fans, but now it's been a decade or more and even that small list hasn't been continued.

I'm a little worried that we're in a sort of self-fulfilling situation where, because ogres and naga haven't been playable, then people don't associate them strongly with Warcraft. These people get hired, then when they work on Warcraft, they have no particular reason to focus on making these races playable, so they continue to not be associated with Warcraft. However, new things these people bring with them might become part of Warcraft instead.

I met some younger Blizzard employees a little while back and, I don't want to sound judgmental, but they basically came across like they were hired directly from the forums. They seemed to understand the games they were working on through the lens of memes more than the actual creative process. They seemed like nice people, but it's just a different situation than it used to be.

I dunno, I'm not gonna take the cynical route. I will say there was definitely something wrong with how people acted at Blizzard(See Afraisbi for the very worst example of it). So less of bad work environment the better but thats less interesting as next expack spoilers.

[Jokubas]

I dunno, I'm not gonna take the cynical route. I will say there was definitely something wrong with how people acted at Blizzard

Oh, certainly. Any improvement to the culture of how employees are treated is a good thing. I meant my "culture" comments all in a creative sense. I'm not sure I'm articulating it well because I also don't mean to say that anything new is automatically bad, but artistic consistency is a complicated topic and something that any drift has big impacts on.

I think that's another thing that affects my confidence in making expansion guesses. The old team never seemed to feel like focusing on dragons (as said before, even Cataclysm had a lot of appearances but was basically entirely negative for them), but maybe that's changed. In the old days I would have dismissed some of these dragon items more, but I'm less confident about that now.

[Shadochi]

Oh, certainly. Any improvement to the culture of how employees are treated is a good thing. I meant my "culture" comments all in a creative sense. I'm not sure I'm articulating it well because I also don't mean to say that anything new is automatically bad, but artistic consistency is a complicated topic and something that any drift has big impacts on.

I think that's another thing that affects my confidence in making expansion guesses. The old team never seemed to feel like focusing on dragons (as said before, even Cataclysm had a lot of appearances but was basically entirely negative for them), but maybe that's changed. In the old days I would have dismissed some of these dragon items more, but I'm less confident about that now.

To be honest they have always been the C plot or D plot in expansion (bar Cata). Would be great if we could get an expansion around them since there is material, especially with the artifacts that originally gave the aspects powers.

On the topic of culture, yes even if content flow delivery stays the same as in previous expansion (Bfa, Legion, not SL and WoD) it is still a big bonus

[huth]

But one of the first "leaks" has been The List that people thought was real but was an elaborate fake list based on info like lore not yet explored, zones cut from dev or not visited yet

Which people still insisted was real until Legion failed to fit with the predictions (because it ended after that), despite it not having gotten much of anything right that wasn't just bloody obvious.

[Jokubas]

I'm hoping we'll get some more positivity going forward as well.

Something that the investigation started to make sense to me was a hypocrisy in not always putting their money where their mouth was on how certain elements of their games would directly encourage behaviors they claimed they didn't support. I actually talked to a significant Blizzard employee years ago about a certain game topic that I have personally seen and often read outright led to bullying, and they basically finished my sentence for me proving they knew it was an issue, but to this day nothing has really been done about it (though it seems like the gears might finally be moving). Their tone suggested that it bothered them as well, but they've long since left and I suspect they were being overruled themselves. Things like that finally getting addressed will benefit everyone.

But one of the first "leaks" has been The List that people thought was real but was an elaborate fake list based on info like lore not yet explored, zones cut from dev or not visited yet

Yeah, there's always been something I guess, but the scale and scope has definitely grown over time and it was much easier to filter then.

[Shadochi]

Which people still insisted was real until Legion failed to fit with the predictions (because it ended after that), despite it not having gotten much of anything right that wasn't just bloody obvious.

Nah even back in 2011 people here mostly knew it was fake outside of a few that werent well informed on it being debunked:
Source MMO-C circa 2011: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...true-after-all (heck thinking this has been 11 years ago)

[Ersula]

Apparently Blizzard must announce 3 things at the end of January. Someone on my discord said it. Any sources ?

(10.0, 9.2 release date, Wotlk classic ?)

That's not some big theory: that's the most realistic guess of what would have been covered at the cancelled Feb Blizzconline.