Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Shadochi]

I've never been an Old God fan. Their lack of personality makes it hard to be invested, and the eldritch horror theme doesn't feel fit in well with the rest of the heroic fantasy. If we can't beat them, it begs the question why we're bothering with anything. So I just wanted to see them get beaten.

By the time we got to Battle for Azeroth, however, I was starting to get invested in N'Zoth. Because they had kept him in the background, I didn't feel his death was long overdue, and instead it gave him time to be built up as something we were interested in.

As I said, playing through Battle for Azeroth after the dust had settled, I think it was a better Azshara/N'Zoth expansion than I originally gave it credit for (it didn't change my feelings about the ending though, there's no excusing that). It really just should have been so much more though. Battle for Azeroth was basically the Old God expansion because N'Zoth was the last one, but it arguably felt less like it than Cataclysm.

The early parts of the expansion could still have been relatively innocuous, although you could maybe even keep the controversial out of character moments, but we should have gotten this huge moment (like getting the eye in the actual expansion) where we realize that nothing was as it seemed and N'Zoth had wormed his way everywhere. Start the invasions in the second patch, have this serious feeling that the Hour of Twilight had basically come and N'Zoth, the master manipulator who had been planning this for millennia, had actually planned better than past villains. Finally, culminate with Ny'alotha as a full zone in the final patch (but without repeating the traditional "oh look, there are friendly factions and hubs right on the villain's doorstep"). I left Azshara out of that, but mostly because I didn't know exactly where to place her. She could still have been the catalyst but it should have been earlier, and Nazjatar should have actually looked like the city of a vain person and not a still mostly untouched ruin.

Wouldn't make sense for Nzoth to start an invasion in 8.1 tho as Nazjatar and Knaifu were needed to release him. So by that logic with moving out the faction stuff and shuffling the raids a bit he could be released at 8.2 the latest (8.0.5 the Crucible of Storms, 8.1 Nazjatar) but that would cause a lot of Old God fatique I assume, especially if both 8.2 and 8.3 in that case were OG themed.

[Jokubas]

Honestly when you look at the info and various concepts from WoD announcement it is a tragedy how much was removed because they were constantly changing stuff to make sense of time travel.

Yeah, it's fascinating when you get to see so much development stuff, I'm always a fan of "what ifs", but sometimes it can be a bit depressing too.

For instance, they increased the ogre presence in the expansion by launch from the original plans, but I would have preferred a smaller ogre presence in the expansion in exchange for having the ogre continent actually be relevant as this distant power that's kept vague but ominous.

Also, some of the little things are interesting, too. The idea of the railroad tracks running throughout the actual zone of Gorgrond and not just the dungeon is a neat idea (and the dungeon is proof that the change came later). Even the "Chronal Spire" (that I believe was going to be connected to Karazhan?) almost feels more interesting than just reusing the Dark Portal and making its function in-game more confusing.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wouldn't make sense for Nzoth to start an invasion in 8.1 tho as Nazjatar and Knaifu were needed to release him. So by that logic with moving out the faction stuff and shuffling the raids a bit he could be released at 8.2 the latest (8.0.5 the Crucible of Storms, 8.1 Nazjatar) but that would cause a lot of Old God fatique I assume, especially if both 8.2 and 8.3 in that case were OG themed.

Much like Legion we had Fel fatigue but I don't think it was that bad.

[Shadochi]

Yeah, it's fascinating when you get to see so much development stuff, I'm always a fan of "what ifs", but sometimes it can be a bit depressing too.

For instance, they increased the ogre presence in the expansion by launch from the original plans, but I would have preferred a smaller ogre presence in the expansion in exchange for having the ogre continent actually be relevant as this distant power that's kept vague but ominous.

Also, some of the little things are interesting, too. The idea of the railroad tracks running throughout the actual zone of Gorgrond and not just the dungeon is a neat idea (and the dungeon is proof that the change came later). Even the "Chronal Spire" (that I believe was going to be connected to Karazhan?) almost feels more interesting than just reusing the Dark Portal and making its function in-game more confusing.

From the zone position I though the Chornal Spire was going to be where Khadghar was being stationed (judging by close map distance) and we are brought there by his or Bronze magic. They probably changed it to the Tanaan scenario as that zone wasn't ready for launch like they wanted so they used what they had and decided to put it in as the intro scenario we later return.

[Sondrelk]

Much like Legion we had Fel fatigue but I don't think it was that bad.

It was actually kinda bad in Legion. The black and green were nice in short Burt's, but once you moved onto the Broken Shore you ended up with everything looking the same. Just endless fields of black and green.

Legion was especially bad in that it didn't have a breather patch in the middle where we did something else for variety. So instead we went from large amounts of black and green pillars in 7.2 to an actual planet completely filled with them in 7.3.
If it wasn't for Mac'aree (or whatever it is called now) giving players a place that isn't the same colour palette I think most players would have pitched a fit by the end.

[Shadochi]

Speaking about intro scenario, in WoD and Legion we got something bringing us straight into the new zones with Tanaan and Broken Shore, then in BfA they changed it a bit by having it be the battle for lordaeron (tho there was also the two faction intros) and in SL it was a questing experience through the endgame zone again (Maw).
10.0 will probably be also something with a scenario or questing in the end game zone before going to the hub/first zone. What do you think it could be relating to the theory of the next expansion you follow?
I could see us teleporting from one titan structure we know of into Uldaz or whatever on Dragon Isles and battling our way through a threat there, be it a new one, Devourers from the Death Realms coming over, or Twilight Cult and then making our escape on back of dragons to Dalran 3.0 (4.0, 5.0 how many times has it moved during WoW) or Seat of the Aspects or whatever

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Also do we know what the name of the Titan Structure in that one BG is? The one to wher ethe path from Wyrmrest leads to. I was about to say that that path might've originally led to the Dragon Isles before sinking but then I remembered tha BG.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Also do we know what the name of the Titan Structure in that one BG is? The one to wher ethe path from Wyrmrest leads to. I was about to say that that path might've originally led to the Dragon Isles before sinking but then I remembered tha BG.

Strand of the Ancients, It got removed in BFA I think.

[Shadochi]

It was actually kinda bad in Legion. The black and green were nice in short Burt's, but once you moved onto the Broken Shore you ended up with everything looking the same. Just endless fields of black and green.

Legion was especially bad in that it didn't have a breather patch in the middle where we did something else for variety. So instead we went from large amounts of black and green pillars in 7.2 to an actual planet completely filled with them in 7.3.
If it wasn't for Mac'aree (or whatever it is called now) giving players a place that isn't the same colour palette I think most players would have pitched a fit by the end.

Completely agree, launch content and first 3 raids did mitigate it a bit by having only some of Nighthold being demonic but mostly Nightborne and the Nightmare and Trial of Valor having nothing demonic. So it wasn't black and green from 6.2 all the way to 7.3 but in the last two patches it definitely was overdone.

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Strand of the Ancients, It got removed in BFA I think.

Oh I didn't know it was removed, that sucks. Would also be cool if we got dungeon, raid and bg zones as part of the outdoor where it fits, an uninstanced version that talks more of the lore.
Wonder if they retconned Strand with the BG removal or if in lore the path still leads there. But I guess I was asking if the actual titan vault there had a name besides the one given for the BG.

[Jokubas]

Wouldn't make sense for Nzoth to start an invasion in 8.1 tho as Nazjatar and Knaifu were needed to release him. So by that logic with moving out the faction stuff and shuffling the raids a bit he could be released at 8.2 the latest (8.0.5 the Crucible of Storms, 8.1 Nazjatar) but that would cause a lot of Old God fatique I assume, especially if both 8.2 and 8.3 in that case were OG themed.

Yeah, my example isn't perfect, though obviously how N'Zoth was released was entirely up to them. They always could have said it was something Azshara secretly did after the Broken Isles while we were busy on Argus.

My main point is about how Battle for Azeroth simply did not leverage the sort of character or plot it was dealing with. I guess it's arguably a problem with the story as a whole (and a huge problem I have with Zereth Mortis), but the pieces were there.

The whole "N'Zoth's eye lets you see terrible things hidden in plain sight all along" is the perfect gimmick for the story as a whole, but it's an optional thing that basically has no impact on the plot. The vision of N'Zoth looming over the Stormwind Cathedral in the patch trailer is great imagery the likes of which I think would have really sold N'Zoth as an eldritch horror that has been worming its way into our world for millennia. We didn't really get anything that felt insane or unknowable, proper of an eldritch horror like N'Zoth, until the final patch, and by then it was too late to develop any of it. I really think they should have started that earlier. We didn't necessarily need heavy void stuff right away, but I think a feeling of paranoia about what might be right under our noses was perfect for N'Zoth but is introduced so late that there's nothing to actually be scared of because we're already in range to kill him.

It's weird that the "the factions are really going at it again after barely surviving the Legion?" and "why are so many characters acting out of character?" seem prime candidates for "the Old Gods are manipulating us", and we in fact see N'Zoth have an effect on Anduin and make him angry enough to attack Wrathion, but in the end the answer to the first question is "Sylvanas was doing it for the Jailer; no one even suspects N'Zoth" and there is no in-universe answer to the second question. There could have been interesting potential for an arc that went something like:
1) Why are we going at it again?
2) Oh of course it's the Old Gods, but N'Zoth has wormed his way in so deeply this time our closest allies will be enemies until we can beat him!
3) We beat N'Zoth, the war can end now! ...wait, why is Sylvanas still acting strange?
Then lead into Shadowlands.

10.0 will probably be also something with a scenario or questing in the end game zone before going to the hub/first zone. What do you think it could be relating to the theory of the next expansion you follow?

That's a good question. For either Dragon Isles or Emerald Dream, I think there's a good chance the dreadlords become more central antagonists. Perhaps something where we go to the new zone under some pretense, only to have the trusted character who brought us reveal themselves as a dreadlord and establish that they've been busy on Azeroth while we thought we were dealing with their leadership.

[huth]

It did not really compared to how successfull WoW could be. Especially considering how many players left the game due to wrong design decisions.

So you did a representative survey of why they left? Because i don't see how else you could actually know that.

I also don't see where you get that "could be" from.

[Jokubas]

I think I'm getting myself all mixed up. I really can't decide what I think might be next still.

I was just thinking again about that quote saying Shadowlands is the end of the first chapter of Warcraft's story, or whatever. It's a ridiculous claim, but if that's how they see things right now than it does suggest some things.

If they really mean it, then next expansion might not just be "grounded" but start from a standardized baseline, a new "status quo". It will inevitably build up to something new for the "next chapter" of the story, but it would probably want to reiterate where the story starts from first.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see the next expansion instead start with something more innocuous like Exile's Reach, and slowly build to something else over time.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Yeah, my example isn't perfect, though obviously how N'Zoth was released was entirely up to them. They always could have said it was something Azshara secretly did after the Broken Isles while we were busy on Argus.

My main point is about how Battle for Azeroth simply did not leverage the sort of character or plot it was dealing with. I guess it's arguably a problem with the story as a whole (and a huge problem I have with Zereth Mortis), but the pieces were there.

The whole "N'Zoth's eye lets you see terrible things hidden in plain sight all along" is the perfect gimmick for the story as a whole, but it's an optional thing that basically has no impact on the plot. The vision of N'Zoth looming over the Stormwind Cathedral in the patch trailer is great imagery the likes of which I think would have really sold N'Zoth as an eldritch horror that has been worming its way into our world for millennia. We didn't really get anything that felt insane or unknowable, proper of an eldritch horror like N'Zoth, until the final patch, and by then it was too late to develop any of it. I really think they should have started that earlier. We didn't necessarily need heavy void stuff right away, but I think a feeling of paranoia about what might be right under our noses was perfect for N'Zoth but is introduced so late that there's nothing to actually be scared of because we're already in range to kill him.

This is my opinion, too—I think an Old God expansion should be proper Lovecraft Lite. Even if it can't be Cosmic Horror, even in Lovecraft Lite the Old Ones aren't just funny tentacle monsters. They still have an overwhelming sense of presence and menace. In that regard, I picture that it would be interesting to have the entire war be either a cold war, or going on more in the background. All of the advertising should be about the faction war, but then as soon as you go in, you get the vibe immediately that something isn't quite right. Keep people wholly out-of-character at times, but have it be lampshaded and commented upon, but only by your allies. I think it would be right to make it seem like the threat is truly invisible to everyone but the player and their allies, which makes them feel more alone and like they're up against stronger odds. It starts off slowly, with the player dealing with the war as things get increasingly fucky, then has a massive pivot moment right around the moment they get the Gift of N'Zoth.

Following that, picture a change akin to Bloodborne. Everything looks different now. Now, you see certain mobs for what they are—things like Faceless Ones and whathaveyou. Since we seem to have the technology, I presume, some models of buildings and the landscape may even phase (whilst you still see players around you, who are still ignorant—it gives the players a sense of forbidden knowledge to see younger players blissfully unaware of the circumstances). The plot thereafter is not about a war, but reflects how Azerite is like uranium—the goal is to sabotage both factions and prevent a world war from breaking out on Azeroth, with the plot being a cold war and several skirmishes instead of a real war. I'd say that the Shrine of Storms would be a perfect shifting point. Start off with the Kul Tiras and Zandalar plots, but with underlying themes suggesting N'Zoth's presence, then have everything change to be very explicit after it. The rest of the narrative thereafter could be an Old God expansion, as the world starts off clearly corrupted, and eventually you see things like the Vision of Stormwind and the 8.3 trailer with N'Zoth leering over Stormwind and whathaveyou whlist no one else does, with everyone else in the world remaining ignorant of Ny'Alotha sort of merging with the waking world until it's too late and chaos breaks out. Then you have this burden to delve into Ny'Alotha and kill N'Zoth before any of this could get any worse. Insanity, I imagine, could be a consistent theme of the expansion—instead of a patch gimmick, I suppose similar systems could be introduced right after getting the Gift.

[Jokubas]

This is my opinion, too—I think an Old God expansion should be proper Lovecraft Lite. Even if it can't be Cosmic Horror, even in Lovecraft Lite the Old Ones aren't just funny tentacle monsters.

This whole post is basically what I was trying to get across but you did a much better job of it. :P

[Shadochi]

I think I'm getting myself all mixed up. I really can't decide what I think might be next still.

I was just thinking again about that quote saying Shadowlands is the end of the first chapter of Warcraft's story, or whatever. It's a ridiculous claim, but if that's how they see things right now than it does suggest some things.

If they really mean it, then next expansion might not just be "grounded" but start from a standardized baseline, a new "status quo". It will inevitably build up to something new for the "next chapter" of the story, but it would probably want to reiterate where the story starts from first.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see the next expansion instead start with something more innocuous like Exile's Reach, and slowly build to something else over time.

Other Side of Azeroth here we come. From what I remember they dodged to give a yes or no answer to that a few years back when asked.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think I'm getting myself all mixed up. I really can't decide what I think might be next still.

I was just thinking again about that quote saying Shadowlands is the end of the first chapter of Warcraft's story, or whatever. It's a ridiculous claim, but if that's how they see things right now than it does suggest some things.

If they really mean it, then next expansion might not just be "grounded" but start from a standardized baseline, a new "status quo". It will inevitably build up to something new for the "next chapter" of the story, but it would probably want to reiterate where the story starts from first.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see the next expansion instead start with something more innocuous like Exile's Reach, and slowly build to something else over time.

I think they mean threads started from Warcraft III are sorta well being closed I.E. Lich King, Scourge-->Zovaal. I don't think they meant "YES WE PLANNED THIS PERFECTLY SINCE THEN." Poorly worded statement maybe but the idea is there.



About Old Gods: I never took them as just silly tentacle monsters

[Wadrak]

It was actually kinda bad in Legion. The black and green were nice in short Burt's, but once you moved onto the Broken Shore you ended up with everything looking the same. Just endless fields of black and green.

Legion was especially bad in that it didn't have a breather patch in the middle where we did something else for variety. So instead we went from large amounts of black and green pillars in 7.2 to an actual planet completely filled with them in 7.3.
If it wasn't for Mac'aree (or whatever it is called now) giving players a place that isn't the same colour palette I think most players would have pitched a fit by the end.

But in Tomb of Sargeras there was a boss he looked like giant Murloc for example. Hardratan or something like that. So it wasn't all just Fel demons.

[Jokubas]

I think they mean threads started from Warcraft III are sorta well being closed I.E. Lich King, Scourge-->Zovaal. I don't think they meant "YES WE PLANNED THIS PERFECTLY SINCE THEN." Poorly worded statement maybe but the idea is there.

True. It's definitely one of those weird marketing things. There's another franchise that relatively recently rebranded part of its story and the primary reason is obviously to allow them to have more freedom, but people have been treating it frustratingly Orwellian, like the story was always planned that way. I don't mean to treat any of the devs as trying to outright lie. As I've said before, I even actually believe that elements of this plot were salvaged from earlier than most people think, but the marketing exaggerates even that.

It still suggests some grounding at least, though. There was a time when I started to think we were just going to move onto the First Ones next, and then maybe whoever's above them, but Shadowlands being the culmination of any plot suggests it probably won't just continue forward and upward as if it wasn't even a speed bump.

[Alanar]

I think I'm getting myself all mixed up. I really can't decide what I think might be next still.

I was just thinking again about that quote saying Shadowlands is the end of the first chapter of Warcraft's story, or whatever. It's a ridiculous claim, but if that's how they see things right now than it does suggest some things.

If they really mean it, then next expansion might not just be "grounded" but start from a standardized baseline, a new "status quo". It will inevitably build up to something new for the "next chapter" of the story, but it would probably want to reiterate where the story starts from first.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see the next expansion instead start with something more innocuous like Exile's Reach, and slowly build to something else over time.

I really hope for a slow build up.. sure some action can happen, but let us settle down and check how everything is going while we were away in the Shadowlands.
I wouldn't care if the first thing you have is: CHAMPION! we need you! quick there is no hope! i am out.

[Shadochi]

To be honest getting to the other side of Azeroth could be useful for a soft reboot. Looking at how expansions ended we never truly were the ones to kill the big bad guy on our own (talking as a raid group). Against the most powerful foes we always have some sort of assistance or are not the ones dealing the final blow. Especially in fights where there are also NPCs chilling with us.
In Legion we defeated Argus by being empowered and revived by titans, i BfA we used titan tech and titan blood to blast nzoth, in SL we are empowered by covenants/eternal ones which are basically similar power level to what Zovaal was before. In Cata we had Dragon BallZ Trall, Wrath there was Tyrion to deal the final blow,... So the argument that "we slayed titans we can't go back to killing X" isn't valid as most of the times we had assistance but we are still the same explorers they turn to to send into a new unknown adventure not knowing what we might face. Judging by the borrowed power being also in Lore our actual power level once an expansion is finished isn't as huge as our experience with dealing with new threats.

[Marlamin]

Bit of a late build but a build nonetheless

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More LivingWorld animations were added in 9.2.0.41257:

LivingWorldTimeOfDayEnter
LivingWorldTimeOfDayLeave
LivingWorldTimeOfDayLoop
FlyLivingWorldTimeOfDayEnter
FlyLivingWorldTimeOfDayLeave
FlyLivingWorldTimeOfDayLoop

There's a small blurb about these on the frontpage as well now since it was interesting enough: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ed-PTR-DLC-804

And more in today's build!

LivingWorldWeatherEnter
LivingWorldWeatherLeave
LivingWorldWeatherLoop
FlyLivingWorldWeatherEnter
FlyLivingWorldWeatherLeave
FlyLivingWorldWeatherLoop

So we now have: Living World Proximity/Time Of Day/Weather.