Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Niwes]

OK so far we have the following changes
New style of talent trees
Revamped zone rep
Revamped flying
Revamped professions
Revamped ui

Does it need to have a new engine and a reset or can this count as WoW 2 because after 4 years of the same gameplay it certainly feels like it

naaah. you should more look at it like „new systems“ without „systems“. at best you can call it a general overhaul to some long existing stuff.

for another new xpac they always need a feature list for that xpac, to sell it. you can’t sell products without an appropriate feature list. you can’t base your sales just on „new content (quest, raids, dungeons)“.

in the last few xpacs they introduced new „systems“, related to player power. in reality this means some story + some cheap UIs (conduits, essences, etc) + some items that support that system. since ppl not want this (player power related systems) they do their new „systems“, they use as a feature list for sale (which is needed), now as other (non player power related) „systems“, like new talent trees or new professions system.

in short, an xpac needs 2 things: content + some new and attracting features. this time the features are not player power related systems but overhauled core systems instead (talents, professions).

that’s all.

[MightyWarrior]

I think its fair to say we're in WOW4 because of the feel of the game during the time periods every 3 expansions

[Nyel]

World of Warcraft, The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King was WOW1
Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria and Warlords of Draenor was WOW2
Legion, Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands are WOW3
Now we're entering WOW4 with Dragonflight, and probably the next two after that.

I think we have to adjust the expansions differently. This is how I would group them, thematically:

a) WotLK and Shadowlands
b) TBC, WoD and Legion
c) Cataclysm, MoP, BfA and Dragonflight

The only outlier is BfA, which would fit into a) as well due to the terrible Sylvanas storyline. But it fits the MoP - Dragonflight line, too, in my opinion.

[The Stormbringer]

World of Warcraft, The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King was WOW1
Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria and Warlords of Draenor was WOW2
Legion, Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands are WOW3
Now we're entering WOW4 with Dragonflight, and probably the next two after that.

Alright, but does that help the spaghetti code issues that a new engine would fix? Being able to program a game from the ground up, knowing what they know now, means they could get rid of a lot of the issues and limitations they currently have to work around.

[Le Conceptuel]

Does the fact that Alliance-associated, non-void infused ones still get labeled "High Elves" somehow make the other two not still High Elves? Of course not, they're called that because they are the group that hasn't renamed themselves or changed at all since they were a unified group. The same way that the aqir who are just called "Aqir" are the ones who have not renamed themselves or changed at all since they were a unified empire. The fact that none of the High/Blood Elves infused with void magic and following under Umbric and Alleria are called "High Elf" or "Blood elf" again, and are just called "Void Elves" now doesn't change the nature of what they are, anymore than Draenei, Krokul, Man'ari, Lightforged or Lost Ones all being distinct groups who often get called just their associated term cease to just be different sorts of Eredar.

What you're suggesting is more along the lines of using "Elf" to refer to a particular breed of "Elf", then using a wholly different word for the other breeds. That's quite different. Why would they use "Aqir" to refer to a specific specimen? Among the breeds of "Duck", there isn't one that is simply called "Duck".

Of course, you could use that as a blanket, but as you said, that doesn't mean their evolution didn't diverge over time instead of those groups being preexisting in the same sense that High Elves only evolved after separating from the Night Elves.

[Murlocos]

Core systems overhauls happening every three expansions (counting vanilla as one) is definitely a pattern at this point, though it's too early to say how much different Dragonflight will be. Cataclysm and Legion both overhauled classes pretty drastically; I'm curious to see if the new talent system has a similar effect or if most classes will continue to feel like alterations on their Legion iterations.

[Le Conceptuel]

??? Illidan had nothing to do with Turalyon. Xe'ra could not even know they'd meet. I don't get the spin that X'era is an evil mastermind. Her one act that is evil is against Illidan and that can be fully accounted to an obsession created over millenia due to the fatalistic nature of Light-based divination, something we see Velen also struggled with but overcame.
And it would be a disappointment in storytelling if AU Yrel is depicted as unequivocally evil. The orcs of Draenor under Geyarah have no credibility. They look like a caricature of postmodernist morality; you are somehow supposed to take their side simply and only because they are the OTHER even though every complaint presented indirectly and thus through excessive bias from Yrel's side is perfectly in line with what we can expect from Draenor orcs; they HAVE caused the destruction of the ecosystem before, the Draenei have every right to be suspicious of them after an attempt at genocide yet somehow we are supposed to assume that they are the evil fascists which is a tempting narrative but far too heavy handed.

I agree. I think that it's very easy to question whether or not the Draenei actually struck first, given the history of the Iron Horde.

[Cheezits]

I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to the new era, which would start with something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated to a cliffhanger save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

I don't think that BFA or Dragonflight will be the mandatory first expansion for newcomers next expansion, but that there will actually be EK/Kalimdor content for leveling up. The fourth war and Sylvanas no longer really matter as we are now focusing on their effects.

[Le Conceptuel]

I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

My general feeling is similar. This expansion isn't strictly "filler", but it is one which is focused on a very specific set of plots that probably isn't going to start anything remarkable unless something funny happens with Galakrond or Murozond.

[Cheezits]

My general feeling is similar. This expansion isn't strictly "filler", but it is one which is focused on a very specific set of plots that probably isn't going to start anything remarkable unless something funny happens with Galakrond or Murozond.

It isn't filler in that the aspects coming back with powers is likely going to have an effect on Azeroth and the plot (and beyond the plot, it will LIKELY have full content for an expansion). But I don't think anything is going to seriously affect Azeroth besides that, and especially not EK/Kalimdor.

[Berkilak]

My general feeling is similar. This expansion isn't strictly "filler", but it is one which is focused on a very specific set of plots that probably isn't going to start anything remarkable unless something funny happens with Galakrond or Murozond.

At the very least, it seems like the start of a new mechanical era. They are very cognizantly laying the foundation for the future.

[Sondrelk]

Core systems overhauls happening every three expansions (counting vanilla as one) is definitely a pattern at this point, though it's too early to say how much different Dragonflight will be. Cataclysm and Legion both overhauled classes pretty drastically; I'm curious to see if the new talent system has a similar effect or if most classes will continue to feel like alterations on their Legion iterations.

It's more every two expansions honestly.

Vanilla and TBC with open world focus. Then WotLK and Cata with the raid or die mentality. Then you have MoP and WoD with even heavier focus on being an Action RPG, then finally Legion and BfA with focus on infinite grinds at endgame.
SL is a bit of an outlier in this in that it fits better with Legion and BfA than it does with DF, but that is really just because of the talent tree revamp and the lack of external power, but even with that I would say SL is closer to DF than to BfA.

[Le Conceptuel]

It isn't filler in that the aspects coming back with powers is likely going to have an effect on Azeroth and the plot (and beyond the plot, it will LIKELY have full content for an expansion). But I don't think anything is going to seriously affect Azeroth besides that, and especially not EK/Kalimdor.

I figure this is the jumping-off point into the meat of the new Azeroth, so-to-speak. This expansion is probably going to get the ball rolling – a prequel, as you said – and then all the little bits being built up will culminate in the next expansion, which will show the more global effects of the events here and in SL.

[Cheezits]

I will say the one racial story that doesn't seem relevant to DF and doesn't really have something set up in BFA or SL is Orcs. Besides Thrall... there's no real ball to play with here, though maybe that's the point? They may just focus on them expanding their civilization on Kalimdor.

Trolls have Vol'jin loa and Zandalari ties, Tauren have the Grimtotem coming back. Forsaken have the Scarlets coming back (see a pattern?), and Belves are being used as the forefront of the Horde for right now.

Orcs... nothing really at the moment.

There's even something for every Alliance race. Humans have Turalyon and maybe the nobles coming back as an important plot. Gnomes have their new kingdom. Dwarves have a stronger presence and titanic stuff coming back. Draenei have Yrel and Worgen just got Gilneas back. Nelves are self-explanatory.

[Le Conceptuel]

At the very least, it seems like the start of a new mechanical era. They are very cognizantly laying the foundation for the future.

These changes will certainly accumulate—makes me excited to see where it goes for the first time in a while.

[Murlocos]

I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to the new era, which would start with something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated to a cliffhanger save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

I don't think that BFA or Dragonflight will be the mandatory first expansion for newcomers next expansion, but that there will actually be EK/Kalimdor content for leveling up. The fourth war and Sylvanas no longer really matter as we are now focusing on their effects.

I consider it a fresh start in that we've been following the same unbroken narrative thread since MoP until now. The narrative threads of everything happening in SL can be directly traced back bit by bit all the way to Garrosh escaping to alt Draenor, every expansion directly tying into the next. This is the first time in a decade where an expansion got to actually end and not feel like it's just immediate setup for the next one with no time to rest.

[Aucald]

What you're suggesting is more along the lines of using "Elf" to refer to a particular breed of "Elf", then using a wholly different word for the other breeds. That's quite different. Why would they use "Aqir" to refer to a specific specimen? Among the breeds of "Duck", there isn't one that is simply called "Duck".

Of course, you could use that as a blanket, but as you said, that doesn't mean their evolution didn't diverge over time instead of those groups being preexisting in the same sense that High Elves only evolved after separating from the Night Elves.

"Aqir" is used to refer to a specific species of entities, the progenitors of the nerubians, mantid, and qiraji. In that sense, it's not really a catch-all or category name for Azeroth's various sentient insectoid races, and some true aqiri still exist today such as Zek'voz. Similarly, the Kaldorei (Night Elves) are the progenitors for the rest of the elven species who exist on Azeroth today - though, unlike the aqiri's many offshoots, there hasn't been a huge number of phenotype differences in the various elven extractions (save for the mutated Felblood, Fal'dorei, and the undead San'layn).

[Cheezits]

I consider it a fresh start in that we've been following the same unbroken narrative thread since MoP until now. The narrative threads of everything happening in SL can be directly traced back bit by bit all the way to Garrosh escaping to alt Draenor, every expansion directly tying into the next. This is the first time in a decade where an expansion got to actually end and not feel like it's just immediate setup for the next one with no time to rest.

For sure. The fact that the villains of the first raid are an OC Grimtotem and a fancy protodrake are both funny and exciting in terms that they came out of nowhere and, so far in the alpha, are set up very well (their motivations are crystal clear too).

As for the Aqir debate, the Scythid don't seem intelligent/sentient and I am going to assume that they are simply the bug race that existed before the first Old Gods got their hands on them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The fact that a man like Turalyon is popular with both nobles and soldiers is alarming. The Alliance could easily turn into a fascist-esque police state. You can see the seeds of this in how Turalyon and regular guardsmen treat dracthyr refugees. It's like the Garrosh situation all over again.

The human army is in shambles post BFA so unless he’s going to get support from
Another part of the alliance there’s no way he’d have the power to turn the alliance or even stormwind into an actual police state.

Between the night elfs gilneans and dwarfs if he tries to act up he’d get smacked down almost instantly unless blizzard just retconned all of there end of BFA alliance lore to increase human army size by a ton.

[Cheezits]

The human army is in shambles post BFA so unless he’s going to get support from
Another part of the alliance there’s no way he’d have the power to turn the alliance or even stormwind into an actual police state.

If Turalyon gets power to do something weird with Stormwind it's 100% going to be based on the appearance of Yrel's Lightbound. This may even be caused by Lothraxion, which SL sets up as being a double agent and with the Nathrezim continuing on as a villain post Jailer will likely be a big character again.