Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

I will accept that all the zareths have automa, but I will point out that establishing that there are 6 automated robot-lands is the least interesting way they could have established a cosmic universe, pretty much hastening the inevitable addition of "Firstier Ones" above the First ones to give the setting a sense of existential mystery.

The first ones are the original pantheon
Each one responsible for a cosmic force and the purpose of the pantheon of each force are to keep them in check while the first ones keep the 7th in check

The 7th force is reality and the first one is Azeroth
The other 6 sealed her away for her to be born but over tge millennia the story has been twisted and the purpose has been distorted leading to the Titans believing she's sealed in a prison and they use their constructs and everything else to ensure that she isn't freed

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Do you remember where that leak is located? Just so we could have a refresher.

I think it was linked in a thread on this site but the OP was on a Chinese site
Essentially they are using the themes from previous expansions like Wrath which was death and old god got split to BfA and SL
DF and 11.0 is dragons and elementals so I expect the primalists to open that door

[Varodoc]

Another thing. The Primalists keep telling us we are being manipulated and more importantly that "You should have joined us"

I kind of hope the pre expansion questline actually has them try to recruit us. Maybe meet some people like Koroleth, Kurog and Dathea

Of course, but this is nothing new.

It is a recurring theme in Warcraft that Reality is the arena where all the Cosmic powers clash, and the mortals are just puppets.

This was already clear in the Warcraft RTS, when it was revealed in WC3 that both the Horde and the Scourge were just puppets for the Demon lords of the Legion.

In this case, the Primalists opposed the Titans' philosophy for obvious reasons. Algalon, a creature of Order, literally tried to end all lifeforms on Azeroth and start the planet anew. Billions would have died, but Algalon didn't care, because he's a Cosmic being and mortals are just lesser beings/puppets to discard once they have become useless or dangerous.

This is true for the Naaru as well. They are often portrayed as benevolent and kind, but the Grand Mother of AU Draenor manipulated Yrel and the Draenei into servitude. Mortals have always been manipulated by Cosmic forces, and many times this leads to disaster (we just came out of two expansions where a dumbass zombie almost doomed the Cosmos because the uber mega god of Death manipulated her).

[Hitei]

Do you remember where that leak is located? Just so we could have a refresher.

It wasn't a leak. It was a Chinese NGA post where a player claimed that you could predict the entirety of the expansions by dividing existing expansions in half and putting them in arbitrary order, e.g. "Burning Crusade is about 'draenor' and 'the Legion' and Legion came out after WoD... yada yada, so because Cataclysm was "dragons" and "elements" 10.0 and 11.0 must be about Dragons and Elements respectively, y'know, despite the fact that it was actually Elements and then Dragons.

Its lack of reliability is self-evident since it ends with 13.0 being "Sha, except that doesn't make any sense, so we'll just tenuously connect this to 'Void Lords' instead". It also claims that 12.0 should be something about war between the Alliance and Horde, since the model totally failed to predict that BfA would be BfA rather than just the regular Ny'alotha/Azshara expansion people were expecting.

[Bsirk]

I think it was linked in a thread on this site but the OP was on a Chinese site
Essentially they are using the themes from previous expansions like Wrath which was death and old god got split to BfA and SL
DF and 11.0 is dragons and elementals so I expect the primalists to open that door

I found the post and that guy has been right even up to Shadowlands and Dragonflight. And this was back in 2017 when he posted that. Crazy!

Its lack of reliability is self-evident since it ends with 13.0 being "Sha, except that doesn't make any sense, so we'll just tenuously connect this to 'Void Lords' instead". It also claims that 12.0 should be something about war between the Alliance and Horde, since the model totally failed to predict that BfA would be BfA rather than just the regular Ny'alotha/Azshara expansion people were expecting.

I'm just amazed that he was that close.

[Shadochi]

I still think they should utilize assets they create newly for an expansion/patch better.

They did this a bit in BfA (Crucible of the Storm) and Legion (Trial of Valor) but none in SL. And even BfA and Legion weren't really doing this as they could.

Just release more 1-2boss raids (in .5 patches for example) using assets you already have in the open world, just creating an encounter. And maybe even do a pre-season at expansion start where there are maybe 3-4 bosses spread over a few mini raids tying up some plotlines in zones or moving cool scenes to them (my example always is how Ysera's death would've been much more epic in a 1 boss raid, they just needed to make her mechanics work for a group). Heck it can just have N and HC difficulty where HC drops equivalent to Normal of first season or maybe slightly lower. Nobody will be able to fully gear from this but a few pieces are nice and good variety.
And the ones I suggest in .5 patches maybe drop loot equivalent to last few bosses of that tier on same difficulty or like +3/4, or just have like effects or something. Like how putting an ending to SL leveling zone stories could be cool via a 1-2 boss raid each.

And then for dungeons, I have no idea why they ever stopped doing dungeon wings. Its a great way to create a couple dungeons without making much assets. When I initially saw 9.1 I was hoping we would be getting 2-3 dungeon wings based on torghast assets, with bosses from torghast as bosses there. Same again with ZM and sepulcher themed ones. Not all raids I guess would work perfectly with wings, but a lot can. Especially from the torghast assets they wouldn't need to create rooms or maps since they have them already a bunch (and honestly in 6 different styles...).

Hopefully DF won't stick to the template of BfA and SL of having a patch with raid and mega dungeon and then no other dungeons added. I would hope that by the time S3 comes to DF and we have went through all 8 DF dungeons in M+ but by then there were 4 more added in DF that are S3 M+ (like 2 pataches with 2 dungeons or 2 dungeons and 1 megadung split up). I also don't just want it to be just 3 or 4 long raids for the expansion, and after the first patch the leveling zones are no longer relevant. But somehow as much as I have faith in DF I'm not sure if this is gonna happen and they will probably just follow the template

[Musta]

I still think they should utilize assets they create newly for an expansion/patch better.

They did this a bit in BfA (Crucible of the Storm) and Legion (Trial of Valor) but none in SL. And even BfA and Legion weren't really doing this as they could.

Just release more 1-2boss raids (in .5 patches for example) using assets you already have in the open world, just creating an encounter. And maybe even do a pre-season at expansion start where there are maybe 3-4 bosses spread over a few mini raids tying up some plotlines in zones or moving cool scenes to them (my example always is how Ysera's death would've been much more epic in a 1 boss raid, they just needed to make her mechanics work for a group). Heck it can just have N and HC difficulty where HC drops equivalent to Normal of first season or maybe slightly lower. Nobody will be able to fully gear from this but a few pieces are nice and good variety.
And the ones I suggest in .5 patches maybe drop loot equivalent to last few bosses of that tier on same difficulty or like +3/4, or just have like effects or something. Like how putting an ending to SL leveling zone stories could be cool via a 1-2 boss raid each.

And then for dungeons, I have no idea why they ever stopped doing dungeon wings. Its a great way to create a couple dungeons without making much assets. When I initially saw 9.1 I was hoping we would be getting 2-3 dungeon wings based on torghast assets, with bosses from torghast as bosses there. Same again with ZM and sepulcher themed ones. Not all raids I guess would work perfectly with wings, but a lot can. Especially from the torghast assets they wouldn't need to create rooms or maps since they have them already a bunch (and honestly in 6 different styles...).

Hopefully DF won't stick to the template of BfA and SL of having a patch with raid and mega dungeon and then no other dungeons added. I would hope that by the time S3 comes to DF and we have went through all 8 DF dungeons in M+ but by then there were 4 more added in DF that are S3 M+ (like 2 pataches with 2 dungeons or 2 dungeons and 1 megadung split up). I also don't just want it to be just 3 or 4 long raids for the expansion, and after the first patch the leveling zones are no longer relevant. But somehow as much as I have faith in DF I'm not sure if this is gonna happen and they will probably just follow the template

couldnt agree more.

[Raetary]

An Additional Quote from that video:

It's honestly not surprising to see you be unable to quote properly.
You literally took 2 seperate sentences, from 2 different people and just mashed them together without putting any thought into it.

Its the land of the Progenitors, the First Ones, who created all other realms of the Shadowlands, this is their workshop.

They have created everything we have experienced, in Azeroth, and Shadowlands and realms we haven't discovered yet.

Do you see the context now?

[jeezusisacasual]

I still think they should utilize assets they create newly for an expansion/patch better.

They did this a bit in BfA (Crucible of the Storm) and Legion (Trial of Valor) but none in SL. And even BfA and Legion weren't really doing this as they could.

Just release more 1-2boss raids (in .5 patches for example) using assets you already have in the open world, just creating an encounter. And maybe even do a pre-season at expansion start where there are maybe 3-4 bosses spread over a few mini raids tying up some plotlines in zones or moving cool scenes to them (my example always is how Ysera's death would've been much more epic in a 1 boss raid, they just needed to make her mechanics work for a group). Heck it can just have N and HC difficulty where HC drops equivalent to Normal of first season or maybe slightly lower. Nobody will be able to fully gear from this but a few pieces are nice and good variety.
And the ones I suggest in .5 patches maybe drop loot equivalent to last few bosses of that tier on same difficulty or like +3/4, or just have like effects or something. Like how putting an ending to SL leveling zone stories could be cool via a 1-2 boss raid each.

And then for dungeons, I have no idea why they ever stopped doing dungeon wings. Its a great way to create a couple dungeons without making much assets. When I initially saw 9.1 I was hoping we would be getting 2-3 dungeon wings based on torghast assets, with bosses from torghast as bosses there. Same again with ZM and sepulcher themed ones. Not all raids I guess would work perfectly with wings, but a lot can. Especially from the torghast assets they wouldn't need to create rooms or maps since they have them already a bunch (and honestly in 6 different styles...).

Hopefully DF won't stick to the template of BfA and SL of having a patch with raid and mega dungeon and then no other dungeons added. I would hope that by the time S3 comes to DF and we have went through all 8 DF dungeons in M+ but by then there were 4 more added in DF that are S3 M+ (like 2 pataches with 2 dungeons or 2 dungeons and 1 megadung split up). I also don't just want it to be just 3 or 4 long raids for the expansion, and after the first patch the leveling zones are no longer relevant. But somehow as much as I have faith in DF I'm not sure if this is gonna happen and they will probably just follow the template

They stopped because Legion was successful with a mega dungeon between raid tiers so they had to replicate that! And it will be 2 Mythic plus dungeons because Legion had it right! Its almost like they follow a script with very little deviation from that script which is counter to the idea that this is art they are creating unless its create content by the numbers in more hastily made legion ways.

[Dracullus]

I feel like mini-raid between tiers is waste of resources, I wouldn't call Crucible of Storms a success. But Trial of Valor was something different, if felt like final 3 bosses of tier, especially since Emerald Nightmare was a cakewalk and it came just 1.5 month after that.

So instead 'mini-raid' I would prefer two smaller raids: 6+2 or 5+3 bosses in one season, with second raid coming ~3 weeks after first one.

[Nymrohd]

They claim the Titans lied to us so I'm going to assume it is something involving the elements based on the leak that predicted themes for the expansions up to 13.0

If you think about it, elementals are the most natural thing in the mortal realm. Every planet has them and as long as nothing external throws them out of balance, they are in peace with each other. Just look at Draenor.
Then look at Azeroth. The World Soul pretty much placed the elementals of the planet in immense distress by taking away all the Spirit, then the Old Gods came and enslaved them and then the Titans came and not only imprisoned them but bound their souls to an artificial prison plane so they couldn't really escape. The way elementals see it, the Titans found them abused and then abused them even more.

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I still think they should utilize assets they create newly for an expansion/patch better.

They did this a bit in BfA (Crucible of the Storm) and Legion (Trial of Valor) but none in SL. And even BfA and Legion weren't really doing this as they could.

Just release more 1-2boss raids (in .5 patches for example) using assets you already have in the open world, just creating an encounter. And maybe even do a pre-season at expansion start where there are maybe 3-4 bosses spread over a few mini raids tying up some plotlines in zones or moving cool scenes to them (my example always is how Ysera's death would've been much more epic in a 1 boss raid, they just needed to make her mechanics work for a group). Heck it can just have N and HC difficulty where HC drops equivalent to Normal of first season or maybe slightly lower. Nobody will be able to fully gear from this but a few pieces are nice and good variety.
And the ones I suggest in .5 patches maybe drop loot equivalent to last few bosses of that tier on same difficulty or like +3/4, or just have like effects or something. Like how putting an ending to SL leveling zone stories could be cool via a 1-2 boss raid each.

And then for dungeons, I have no idea why they ever stopped doing dungeon wings. Its a great way to create a couple dungeons without making much assets. When I initially saw 9.1 I was hoping we would be getting 2-3 dungeon wings based on torghast assets, with bosses from torghast as bosses there. Same again with ZM and sepulcher themed ones. Not all raids I guess would work perfectly with wings, but a lot can. Especially from the torghast assets they wouldn't need to create rooms or maps since they have them already a bunch (and honestly in 6 different styles...).

Hopefully DF won't stick to the template of BfA and SL of having a patch with raid and mega dungeon and then no other dungeons added. I would hope that by the time S3 comes to DF and we have went through all 8 DF dungeons in M+ but by then there were 4 more added in DF that are S3 M+ (like 2 pataches with 2 dungeons or 2 dungeons and 1 megadung split up). I also don't just want it to be just 3 or 4 long raids for the expansion, and after the first patch the leveling zones are no longer relevant. But somehow as much as I have faith in DF I'm not sure if this is gonna happen and they will probably just follow the template

Agreed on most accounts. Made a post elsewhere that I think they should really move to making raid tiers with 2-3 raids and fewer bosses in them to cut down on encounters that by lore or theme are just filler. And Dragonflight specifically has so many massive locations that could be used as a raid backdrop (and several of the dungeons are pretty much assets already available for exploration with maybe a few extra rooms).

I don't particularly agree on Dungeon wings. I do however think that if a raid has a completely unique set of assets it should come with another type of content that duplicates them (could be a dungeon, could be something else like a Visions things). Especially in some cases. I think BfA pacing would have been better with Mechagon in 8.1 (and the dungeon wings released in 8.2 at M+) and then give a naga themed dungeon. Those assets were gorgeous and just underused; we should have had an underwater dungeon there (not working on the z-axis, just have us stay grounded throughout).

And I hope we either get TWO megadungeons or 1 megadungeon and two normal ones. Adding 3-4 more dungeons will let them add even more variety to the rotating seasons (and then we can have a final season with all Dragonflight dungeons).

[tristannarutofan]

Jaina and Kalec is such a random silly thing. Jaina had Arthas as a romance interest, that was part of her story. They didn't need to another romance arc after that. People don't need to be in a relationship to be happy.

Never liked characters jumping from one romantic interested to another in stories. Kinda makes the previous one less important.

with all do respect i dont know how you can think this.

Stories are about people and one of the most important things people do is connect with other people. and when attraction is possible that can lead to a relationship.

Jaina's story involved obtaining a way to express herself and have someone to talk to and confide in (i.e. not another King, someone under her command, or a potential enemy like thrall; Someone entirely removed from Mortal politics) who also treated her with respect (unlike arthas) AND understood the same interests she had.

And of course when she decided to move on from relying on other people and take some time to herself she moved on from that relationship.

Thats what we call good writing and good characterization.

Romance isnt some weird sidebar thing that happens in stories. For good or ill it is one of the most defining thing about human existence with even those who Do not end up in a serious relationship often being defined by the lack of that.

Finding an intellectual and political equal she could bond with socially and intellectually was part of her natural character growth that involved growing past the NEED for such a relationship and become a more independant and sensible person. With BFA and her accepting her regret at doing the right thing and putting herself at her mothers mercy (and being strong enough to gain her acceptance before she died) The young woman who fought hard to hold the world together when it wanted to tear itself apart is in a better place to change the world for the better.

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Ok but did it have to be a dragon? Also, that's not even what I meant! I'm talking about fictional characters. There's a difference!

100% of stories exist for humans to consume. Every piece of media or literature is meant for human consumption and as such is meant to reflect the human experience, deconstruct it or criticize it

[Lady Atia]

I still think they should utilize assets they create newly for an expansion/patch better.

They did this a bit in BfA (Crucible of the Storm) and Legion (Trial of Valor) but none in SL. And even BfA and Legion weren't really doing this as they could.

Just release more 1-2boss raids (in .5 patches for example) using assets you already have in the open world, just creating an encounter. And maybe even do a pre-season at expansion start where there are maybe 3-4 bosses spread over a few mini raids tying up some plotlines in zones or moving cool scenes to them (my example always is how Ysera's death would've been much more epic in a 1 boss raid, they just needed to make her mechanics work for a group). Heck it can just have N and HC difficulty where HC drops equivalent to Normal of first season or maybe slightly lower. Nobody will be able to fully gear from this but a few pieces are nice and good variety.
And the ones I suggest in .5 patches maybe drop loot equivalent to last few bosses of that tier on same difficulty or like +3/4, or just have like effects or something. Like how putting an ending to SL leveling zone stories could be cool via a 1-2 boss raid each.

And then for dungeons, I have no idea why they ever stopped doing dungeon wings. Its a great way to create a couple dungeons without making much assets. When I initially saw 9.1 I was hoping we would be getting 2-3 dungeon wings based on torghast assets, with bosses from torghast as bosses there. Same again with ZM and sepulcher themed ones. Not all raids I guess would work perfectly with wings, but a lot can. Especially from the torghast assets they wouldn't need to create rooms or maps since they have them already a bunch (and honestly in 6 different styles...).

Hopefully DF won't stick to the template of BfA and SL of having a patch with raid and mega dungeon and then no other dungeons added. I would hope that by the time S3 comes to DF and we have went through all 8 DF dungeons in M+ but by then there were 4 more added in DF that are S3 M+ (like 2 pataches with 2 dungeons or 2 dungeons and 1 megadung split up). I also don't just want it to be just 3 or 4 long raids for the expansion, and after the first patch the leveling zones are no longer relevant. But somehow as much as I have faith in DF I'm not sure if this is gonna happen and they will probably just follow the template

But both the copy paste raids and the dungeon wings felt super cheap, although I guess it's better than nothing. But honestly, you would have had even more Sepulcher fatigue if they added 3 (!) copy paste dungeons on top. Also I get Trial of the Crusader flashbacks .... so no .... I will take unique dungeons over copy paste stuff, even if it means we get less stuff.

[Nymrohd]

Ok but did it have to be a dragon? Also, that's not even what I meant! I'm talking about fictional characters. There's a difference!

Meh, Kalec and Krasus in particular spent far more of their time on WoW in their humanoid forms. Plus have you SEEN Kalec's humanoid form? You don't choose to look like that if you don't want romantic opportunities with mortals.

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But both the copy paste raids and the dungeon wings felt super cheap, although I guess it's better than nothing. But honestly, you would have had even more Sepulcher fatigue if they added 3 (!) copy paste dungeons on top. Also I get Trial of the Crusader flashbacks .... so no .... I will take unique dungeons over copy paste stuff, even if it means we get less stuff.

I'd say think more of Icecrown dungeons or End Time dungeons (which were frankly BETTER than the raid they accompanied).

[Nathanyel]

I'm just amazed that he was that close.

Noooot really. It is what's called an educated guess. Everything repeats over time, and we're not likely to get new kinds of major threats (I expect that the First Ones or whatever Zovaal was afraid of remain a background element, sometimes hinted at, maybe used in the very final expansion story) so the major themes are set.

A Death theme for 9.0 was predictable and hinted at by having Bwonsamdi and the Drust in BfA, along with Sylvanas causing an unnecessary global war = countless deaths.

Dragons returning to the forefront of the story was just a matter of time.

There's a decent chance that the next expansions will "fit" to these predictions, and not just because the predictions are rather vague.

I feel like this is Reinjin's "List" all over again, an entertaining read - if you don't take it seriously.

[Revamp Man]

Depends. I even predicted a Death themed expac for 9.0, tho I did think Void would be 10.0 loool

Nowadays, I don't think that. But Cosmic Elemental Realms for 11.0 would be nice 100%

I do think an Order Realm would be cool tho.

As for the First Ones, they are not "the original Pantheon". The Pantheons are basically the Progenitors' children, and they are responsible for embodying the Progenitors influences and to keep the Pattern together.

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Regarding the Dragons, I think that was 100% a good guess, tho not impossible considering they did say around the time of Legion that they wanted to kind of reopen the door for Dragons but they didn't know when.

we know nothing about the first ones only that it is POSSIBLE they were a pantheon style force
i also dont think we will end up with cosmic elemental planes but there has been stuff since BfA talking about stuff happening in the elemental planes like a new firelord coming to power and the stuff from the island expeditions have been used constantly since their inception

[Nymrohd]

I mean the idea of cosmic level elementals comes from what, Murmur? At that point in time they were 100% working on rule of cool with minimal consideration for the lore. Then again we have Aluneth and we don't know if it is an arcane elemental or if it is a creature from the plane of Order.

[Lady Atia]

Meh, Kalec and Krasus in particular spent far more of their time on WoW in their humanoid forms. Plus have you SEEN Kalec's humanoid form? You don't choose to look like that if you don't want romantic opportunities with mortals.

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I'd say think more of Icecrown dungeons or End Time dungeons (which were frankly BETTER than the raid they accompanied).

Tbf, they should have merged the End Time Dungeons with the Dragonsoul we got and it would have been the most epic of raid tiers ever. Instead they wasted their ressources on the dungeons and well .... gave us Madness of Deathwing haha.

[Nymrohd]

Tbf, they should have merged the End Time Dungeons with the Dragonsoul we got and it would have been the most epic of raid tiers ever. Instead they wasted their ressources on the dungeons and well .... gave us Madness of Deathwing haha.

Yeah, imagine starting at end time with faction bosses, then Murozond, doing the War of the Ancients dungeon as was and then merging Hour of Twilight with the Dragon Soul raid; do either Morchok or the frost ascendant not both, keep Asira, keep benedictus, imo keep the c'thraxxi bosses (they were not that challenging, the rooms were boring but the encounters were still fun). Definitely keep Ulthraxion he was the best thing in that raid and keep the skyship. I'd have a human form Deathwing fight (maybe in place of that random orc mage/shaman in the Iris). Keep the Spine as a concept but I'd do the following change; first and third plate would stay the same but instead of blowing the second plate in the same way add a second phase that plays differently (maybe we have to jump at his wings?).

I have no idea how to salvage Madness though. I'd do something with vehicle combat but I'm apparently the only person in the community who enjoys that.

[Sondrelk]

Meh, Kalec and Krasus in particular spent far more of their time on WoW in their humanoid forms. Plus have you SEEN Kalec's humanoid form? You don't choose to look like that if you don't want romantic opportunities with mortals.

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I'd say think more of Icecrown dungeons or End Time dungeons (which were frankly BETTER than the raid they accompanied).

Really the End Time dungeons should have been the raid to begin with.
Fight Murozond, Azshara, Mannoroth, and Archbishop Benedictus in the most epic boss battle that patch had. Then skip all the filler bosses in Dragon Soul and go straight to the juicy stuff like Ultraxion and Deathwing.

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Tbf, they should have merged the End Time Dungeons with the Dragonsoul we got and it would have been the most epic of raid tiers ever. Instead they wasted their ressources on the dungeons and well .... gave us Madness of Deathwing haha.

I feel like this might be why they stopped doing final raid dungeons. You cannot use the good ideas for dungeons, which inevitably means you have to use only the more boring discarded concepts instead.

The ICC dungeons are nice and all. But who really remembers most of those bosses at all? Bronjahm is only interesting because of the music that plays, and beyond that you really only have Tyrannus and the Lich King encounter. The rest is basically all filler.

[Nymrohd]

Really the End Time dungeons should have been the raid to begin with.
Fight Murozond, Azshara, Mannoroth, and Archbishop Benedictus in the most epic boss battle that patch had. Then skip all the filler bosses in Dragon Soul and go straight to the juicy stuff like Ultraxion and Deathwing.

I mean if they hadn't been lazy I think the two C'thraxxi generals could have been great fights. Imo the encounters themselves were entertaining early raid bosses (in this version they'd be mid raid). The problem was the encounter space (especially with the bouncing ball dude, that room was TOO big especially on 10man). Nothing saves the first and fourth boss or the Madness encounter.

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I feel like this might be why they stopped doing final raid dungeons. You cannot use the good ideas for dungeons, which inevitably means you have to use only the more boring discarded concepts instead.

The ICC dungeons are nice and all. But who really remembers most of those bosses at all? Bronjahm is only interesting because of the music that plays, and beyond that you really only have Tyrannus and the Lich King encounter. The rest is basically all filler.

You don't remember Falric and Marwyn? The voice lines alone make them very memorable. Honestly no one framed Arthas for story purposes better in the entire expac than those two and after the dungeon I ended up wishing they had shown up a lot more as Arthas left and right hands instead of using Arthas constantly.