Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Antiganon]

Then how do you explain what Bill Clinton did?

Did he lower taxes? Cut services?

[Theodarzna]

Did he lower taxes? Cut services?

He gutted Welfare, Passed NAFTA, and was in talks to privatize Social Security until the blessed saint Monica derailed his political projects.

[JohnBrown1917]

Did he lower taxes? Cut services?

He cut welfare, yes.

[Antiganon]

He gutted Welfare, Passed NAFTA, and was in talks to privatize Social Security until the blessed saint Monica derailed his political projects.

He cut welfare, yes.

So I looked into PRWORA (I was all of 8 when it passed, and not exactly politically active yet), and it's a garbage bill. I knew welfare reform had been passed during his term, I had no understanding of the extent to which it was gutted. Mea culpa.

NAFTA is a trade deal and has nothing to do with social services. Further, as we are all keenly aware, tarrifs are paid by the American consumer, rather than the foreign country shipping the product, so pretending free trade is a black and white "bad for the people" issue is disingenuous. You lose middle class manufacturing jobs and get lower cost foreign products for consumers to buy, and you (theoretically) create new markets for the domestic products that other countries can't produce,creating new more specialized (and presumably better paying) jobs. While free trade deals don't often work out like the ideal (mostly because corporations can just offload ALL their jobs to the foreign country with the lowest prevailing wage), calling it a cut to social services or a cut to taxes is not exactly accurate IMO.

I don't particularly care about talks to do anything with social security. Every president going back decades has talked about social security, and nobody has ever actually touched it, aside from Trump, who defunded it.

[Slybak]

Did he lower taxes? Cut services?

Very early in his first term Bill Clinton scrapped most of the social welfare policies in the party platform he ran on because he was told that the bond market and Federal Reserve held an effective veto over his agenda, and that they would wield that veto against him mercilessly because they weren't about to let some jumped-up hillbilly from Arkansas derail what was by then close to 15 years of neoliberal policy-setting. Real "that scene in Network where Ned Beatty tells Sydney Lumet that he's meddling with the primal forces of nature" type shit. Same thing happened to Jimmy Carter, who kicked off this policy-setting era by effectively being extorted into appointing Paul Volker as Fed Chairman.

This proceeded into Clinton's second term, when Bruce Reed's "The End of Welfare as We Know It" entered the Democratic Party's lexicon. The same Bruce Reed who is also rumored to be a top pick for the chair of Biden's Council Economic Advisors because we'll never be rid of these people.

[Zan15]

He gutted Welfare, Passed NAFTA, and was in talks to privatize Social Security until the blessed saint Monica derailed his political projects.

Republican-majority Congress

They gutted welfare.
They passed NAFTA.

It was clinton's attempt at compromise to get his healthcare plans through, which republicans reengaged on like the cunts they are.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Do you ever get tired of blatantly lying? Because Yellen has been vocally critical of austerity as a policy in the past in both the US and Europe and has consistently been in support of both deficit spending as well as public investment for decades.

Once again we get that the goal here is pushing a both sides narrative which is why the minute Biden's electoral win became apparent y'all suddenly find the energy to be critical of the executive branch despite radio silence for the past four years on anything except complaining about Congressional Democrats or the DNC. /yawn

Of course, the last 4 years have actually had far more reason for criticism of the executive administration. The daily lies, scandals, and policy that has broken the US apart. And of course, for the last four years we have only seen Theo posting maybe once a month for the occasional linking of her husband's blog that only criticizes, you guessed it, Democrats.

Even worse, while she's over there concern trolling about how Democrats are going to destroy the world, Republicans arguably have more influence and sway, even during a Democrat presidency with a Democrat controlled congress. Republicans have effectively been running this nation for the past 20 years. All of Obama's attempts to push us farther left with policy were stonewalled by Republicans. People who say that Democrats are too right wing just aren't paying attention. Democrats have pushed farther left policy through congress and the senate, only for it to sit on the majority leader's desk and never get a vote.

It's rather disgusting for someone with a history master's degree to sit there and finger wag and wring her hands over Democrats with the current state of affairs. Democrats do have scandals yes, they have done some shady and shitty stuff, but the comparison between Democrat controversy and Republican controversy is someone stealing a pack of gum and having an OJ Simpson case over it, and someone shooting fifteen people, stealing a car, and getting away with it. That's how wide the gap is.

I'd say, arguably, the best thing about the last 4 years on these forums was the near absence of Theo's doomsaying and DNC concern trolling. As soon as the next administration was decided, she also seems to have decided that she will once again take an active role in pushing nontroversies up to 50 pages.

[Theodarzna]

Republican-majority Congress

They gutted welfare.
They passed NAFTA.

It was clinton's attempt at compromise to get his healthcare plans through, which republicans reengaged on like the cunts they are.

For NAFTA, NAFTA was signed into law in 1993, at that time Democrats controlled BOTH chambers of the Legislature.

Clinton was also campaigning on ending Welfare as we knew it at that time in 1992.

As for Welfare gutting, that did take place finally in 1996, but he was campaigning on that bill in 92. Also for historical record, in 1992, 93, and 94 the Dems held the Congress in both chambers.

[Omega10]

For NAFTA, NAFTA was signed into law in 1993, at that time Democrats controlled BOTH chambers of the Legislature.

Clinton was also campaigning on ending Welfare as we knew it at that time in 1992.

As for Welfare gutting, that did take place finally in 1996, but he was campaigning on that bill in 92. Also for historical record, in 1992, 93, and 94 the Dems held the Congress in both chambers.

I am somewhat in agreement with some of the ideas you are putting forward. But this is what Biden will be up against.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us...ic/ar-BB1bnlJ0

Title: US coronavirus: Hospitalizations hit another record as experts warn Thanksgiving gatherings could worsen the pandemic

The gist of it is that they are expecting the virus to not just get a little worse between now and the end of the year, but a LOT worse.

Excerpts:

The number of Covid-19 patients in US hospitals hit a record for the 17th straight day Thursday, at more than 90,481, according to the COVID Tracking Project, as many medical centers warn they're running out of capacity.

Recorded cases are rising to unprecedented levels. The average number of new daily cases across a week in the US was 175,809 on Wednesday -- the highest on record, and more than two and a half times greater than the previous peak in late July.

And Covid-19 deaths in the US are spiking. More than 2,100 deaths were reported on Tuesday and Wednesday each, the first time that level was crossed on consecutive days since late April.

The average number of daily deaths across a week -- 1,658 on Wednesday -- is the highest it's been since mid-May.

The CDC recommended last week that Americans should not travel for Thanksgiving. Many changed their plans, a new poll showed. But millions didn't.

More than 5.9 million people have flown through US airports since the CDC's anti-travel recommendation last week, according to TSA data.

"I don't mean to be scary but ... today can change the course of Covid for our country for the rest of the year," Dr. Megan Ranney, a CNN medical analyst and emergency physician at Brown University, said Thursday.

"Infections that are sustained today are going to show up in three weeks and are going to show up in deaths over Christmas and New Year's and are going to spread in every state."

One expert predicts daily Covid-19 deaths will double in just a matter of days.

"When you look at people who are hospitalized today, they were infected two weeks ago, maybe more. So, it takes about five to seven days to become symptomatic," Dr. Jonathan Reiner, a professor of medicine at George Washington University, said Wednesday.

"Usually, it takes about another week to be sick enough to be hospitalized so that's two weeks at least, and then it takes usually another week for folks to succumb to the illness," Reiner said.

"I expect that the daily death rate will double in the next 10 days," he said. "We'll be seeing close to 4,000 deaths a day."

Let's suppose that we only go up to 3k deaths a day - 1 9/11 event every day.

WOW THE EXPERTS HUGELY OVERESTIMATED HOW BAD THE VIRUS WOULD GET... AGAIN.

The rest of the article is a lot of very grim statistics about how bad things currently are.

Meanwhile other headlines:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wh...es/ar-BB1bmnDH

Title: White House Thanksgiving proclamation calls for Americans to 'gather' even as Covid-19 surges

Excerpt:

President Donald Trump's annual Thanksgiving proclamation calls for Americans to "gather" for the holiday, even though federal public health officials have explicitly warned against it.

The final line of the proclamation, issued by the White House press secretary's office Wednesday evening, reads: "I encourage all Americans to gather, in homes and places of worship, to offer a prayer of thanks to God for our many blessings."

And

https://news.yahoo.com/florida-gover...180518935.html

Title: Florida governor Ron DeSantis accused of ‘killing spree’ after extending ban on cities from imposing own mask mandates

Florida governor Ron DeSantis has been accused of overseeing a “killing spree”, after he extended a ban on cities in the state imposing their own mask mandates.

On Wednesday, Mr DeSantis extended an executive order issued in September, which prevented local governments from fining residents who refused to wear face masks, or from closing restaurants not complying with coronavirus measures.

So in the midst of a very bad virus, one that is on the verge of getting MUCH MUCH worse, republicans in high places are basically urging people to spread it as much as possible and to as many people as possible. And no I DON'T think that statement is over the top, not at this stage of things.

It is completely clear that people taking the recommendations of Trump and DeSantis will absolutely and positively spread the virus to a lot of new people. There is zero doubt about that. The only question is: will it be as bad as doubling the death rate to 4k a day.

Biden is going to be facing a country that will be in a very bad place. And republicans are already trying to make the situation as bad as possible in order to prepare their attacks on democrats in 2022, as per Rubio. There are times to make the kinds of arguments you are making. Now is most definitely not that time.

[Theodarzna]

So in the midst of a very bad virus, one that is on the verge of getting MUCH MUCH worse, republicans in high places are basically urging people to spread it as much as possible and to as many people as possible. And no I DON'T think that statement is over the top, not at this stage of things.

It is completely clear that people taking the recommendations of Trump and DeSantis will absolutely and positively spread the virus to a lot of new people. There is zero doubt about that. The only question is: will it be as bad as doubling the death rate to 4k a day.

Biden is going to be facing a country that will be in a very bad place. And republicans are already trying to make the situation as bad as possible in order to prepare their attacks on democrats in 2022, as per Rubio. There are times to make the kinds of arguments you are making. Now is most definitely not that time.

Biden therefor was a poor choice; I mean if you are already facing down a brutal fight to the death you might as well bring your A-game; unless of-course all those Bernie Sanders policies were not what the Dems believed in at all.

There are times to make the kinds of arguments you are making. Now is most definitely not that time.

As for that last bit, THERE WILL NEVER BE A TIME! Remember, we couldn't criticize Biden because Orange Man uber Fascist has to be removed, here you are "Uhhhh but the Midterms, you gotta stan the party!" then come Midterms "Well dude, the presidential! Not the right time!" there is literally never a RIGHT TIME to criticize by design. I assure you are going to be the guy or gal trotting that out every year, the right time to criticize is always "NEXT TIME", never in the present.

[PhaelixWW]

Biden therefor was a poor choice; I mean if you are already facing down a brutal fight to the death you might as well bring your A-game

Ah, this is the point of the discussion where you make the bold assumptions 1) that another candidate would have even won enough votes to be at this place, and 2) that said candidate would have some better "A-game" to bring.

Kindly show your work or admit that you don't have a real point.

[Omega10]

As for that last bit, THERE WILL NEVER BE A TIME! Remember, we couldn't criticize Biden because Orange Man uber Fascist has to be removed, here you are "Uhhhh but the Midterms, you gotta stan the party!" then come Midterms "Well dude, the presidential! Not the right time!" there is literally never a RIGHT TIME to criticize by design. I assure you are going to be the guy or gal trotting that out every year, the right time to criticize is always "NEXT TIME", never in the present.

Maybe so. But during the election, republicans got 72 million people to basically vote AGAINST "socialism", took House seats from democrats based on this, and held their Senate losses to just 1 (unless they lose another seat or two in Georgia).

We got creamed this election. Corporate democrats just flat out won. With very energized republicans ready to return to power in 2022 if democrats get out of line.

America voted STRONGLY against M4A, America voted STRONGLY against Green New Deal, America voted STRONGLY against stimulus packages with large amounts of money going to middle and working class Americans. McConnell won his Senate seat in a landslide. This is exactly what republicans made the election about, and someone as dishonest and disgusting as Trump got 72 million votes, with many people that voted for Biden voting straight republican in the remaining races. Republicans had a great election in state and local elections.

The democratic party really did sell a progressive vision for America during the democratic primary. America said not only no, but HELL no. During the primary season, black Americans led by Representative Clyburn were at the front line leading the charge against progressives, and made it quite clear they want nothing to do with our policies.

So it's back to the drawing board. In the meantime, the best we can do is to at least keep a small place at the bargaining tables and nibble around the edges a bit.

[Theodarzna]

Maybe so. But during the election, republicans got 72 million people to basically vote AGAINST "socialism", took House seats from democrats based on this, and held their Senate losses to just 1 (unless they lose another seat or two in Georgia).

We got creamed this election. Corporate democrats just flat out won. With very energized republicans ready to return to power in 2022 if democrats get out of line.

America voted STRONGLY against M4A, America voted STRONGLY against Green New Deal, America voted STRONGLY against stimulus packages with large amounts of money going to middle and working class Americans. McConnell won his Senate seat in a landslide. This is exactly what republicans made the election about, and someone as dishonest and disgusting as Trump got 72 million votes, with many people that voted for Biden voting straight republican in the remaining races. Republicans had a great election in state and local elections.

The democratic party really did sell a progressive vision for America during the democratic primary. America said not only no, but HELL no. During the primary season, black Americans led by Representative Clyburn were at the front line leading the charge against progressives, and made it quite clear they want nothing to do with our policies.

So it's back to the drawing board. In the meantime, the best we can do is to at least keep a small place at the bargaining tables and nibble around the edges a bit.

First, Despite Clyburn, Black turnout in the GE was uber low, with say Georgia being at 2006 levels.

Second, America voted? A political PARTY voted against those things. The Democrats voted against those things. The DNC made clear where they stand. Biden ran AGAINST those issues and vowed to veto M4A if it came to him, and opposed everything and his aides were hinting that austerity would rule the day once they got power. What are you smoking right now?

Finally, Democrats ran the most right-wing Presidential candidate they could find, ran a small legion worth of ex-CIA goons and trotted out the worst of the worst of the Bush Admin as celebrated allies.

If you think this shit performance is on AOC, than you either need to cut back on your drug intake or up the dosage. Consult your doctor or dealer post haste my friend.

[beanman12345]

First, Despite Clyburn, Black turnout in the GE was uber low, with say Georgia being at 2006 levels.

Yeah, this, like everything you say, complete bullshit.

https://time.com/5909556/stacey-abra...-women-voting/

[Theodarzna]

Yeah, this, like everything you say, complete bullshit.

https://time.com/5909556/stacey-abra...-women-voting/

Ah, the new celebrity Stacey Abrams! Alas!, you are incorrect.

If you look at county-level returns in Georgia, it’s pretty clear that nonwhite voters, as a share of the electorate, decreased at a time when the nonwhite share of the state’s population probably increased. Relative to the electorate as a whole, nonwhite turnout fell. And then, among nonwhite voters who turned out, support for the Democratic nominee fell. That’s just not consistent with nonwhite turnout being the decisive factor. The only reason we won is that there were these very large swings toward us among college-educated white people in the Atlanta suburbs.

Now the data team at the New York Times is making the same argument looking at the same numbers:

Joe Biden put Georgia in the Democratic column for the first time since 1992 by making huge gains among affluent, college-educated and older voters in the suburbs around Atlanta, according to an Upshot analysis of the results by precinct. The Black share of the electorate fell to its lowest level since 2006, based on an Upshot analysis of newly published turnout data from the Georgia secretary of state. In an election marked by a big rise in turnout, Black turnout increased, too, but less than that of some other groups.

(Source)

Sorry, but your are just factually incorrect.

[beanman12345]

Ah, the new celebrity Stacey Abrams! Alas!, you are incorrect.



(Source)

Sorry, but your are just factually incorrect.

Ahhh just like typical theo proven wrong, so you move the goal posts.

you said turnout was uber low, than link that the SHARE of the elctorate fell. 700,000 more black people voted in 2020 than in 2016, in GA.

You should try to be correct some times, it's satisfying.

[Theodarzna]

Ahhh just like typical theo proven wrong, so you move the goal posts.

you said turnout was uber low, than link that the SHARE of the elctorate fell. 700,000 more black people voted in 2020 than in 2016, in GA.

You should try to be correct some times, it's satisfying.

Jamie, can you play the tape again?:

My post:

First, Despite Clyburn, Black turnout in the GE was uber low, with say Georgia being at 2006 levels.

You post about your new fav celebrity,

I return with actual data:

If you look at county-level returns in Georgia, it’s pretty clear that nonwhite voters, as a share of the electorate, decreased at a time when the nonwhite share of the state’s population probably increased. Relative to the electorate as a whole, nonwhite turnout fell. And then, among nonwhite voters who turned out, support for the Democratic nominee fell. That’s just not consistent with nonwhite turnout being the decisive factor. The only reason we won is that there were these very large swings toward us among college-educated white people in the Atlanta suburbs.

Now the data team at the New York Times is making the same argument looking at the same numbers:

Joe Biden put Georgia in the Democratic column for the first time since 1992 by making huge gains among affluent, college-educated and older voters in the suburbs around Atlanta, according to an Upshot analysis of the results by precinct. The Black share of the electorate fell to its lowest level since 2006, based on an Upshot analysis of newly published turnout data from the Georgia secretary of state. In an election marked by a big rise in turnout, Black turnout increased, too, but less than that of some other groups.

(Source)

Sorry, Literally my source beat for beat backs up what I initially said. I am guessing this is a case of projection on your part. Sorry your attempt at dunking didn't work out. Try again next time?

[beanman12345]

Jamie, can you play the tape again?:

My post:


You post about your new fav celebrity,

I return with actual data:


(Source)

Sorry, Literally my source beat for beat backs up what I initially said. I am guessing this is a case of projection on your part. Sorry your attempt at dunking didn't work out. Try again next time?

look at what you quoted twice. look at what you underlined twice. now look at the sentence immediately following what you quoted and underlined twice. like seriously wtf is wrong with you?

Theo - "turnout was uber low, 2006 levels in GA"
also Theo - let me quote you something to prove my lack of reading comprehension.

[AntiFascistVoter]

look at what you quoted twice. look at what you underlined twice. now look at the sentence immediately following what you quoted and underlined twice. like seriously wtf is wrong with you?

Theo - "turnout was uber low, 2006 levels in GA"
also Theo - let me quote you something to prove my lack of reading comprehension.

Contempt for black voters is basically the heart of it for our reactionaries, accelerationists, and cosplay socialists.
Black voters threw a wrench in their dreams in the 2016 primaries, they've been holding this grudge for five years.

Goto their threads about "leaving the Democrat party". It's all contempt for identity politics of the Democratic coalition.

The thought of sharing power or having powerful representatives like Clyburn utterly rankles them.

They only want to be in charge and have social benefits for their own herrenvolk.

A lot of them hid behind Tulsi's candidacy.

BTW, here's Hawaii fabulous new rep!

Kai Kahele
Wish me luck


Keep those Tulsi tears clear of any deep fryer

[Theodarzna]

look at what you quoted twice. look at what you underlined twice. now look at the sentence immediately following what you quoted and underlined twice. like seriously wtf is wrong with you?

Theo - "turnout was uber low, 2006 levels in GA"
also Theo - let me quote you something to prove my lack of reading comprehension.

It did not increase in Georgia, the state you are crediting Saint Abrams with getting all the black votes in existence. The position I stated was it was down compared to previous years and in the South were Clyburn is, and Abrams for that matter it was at 2006 levels.