1. #2501
    Manchin is being Manchin. *agrees with cubby* Schumer knows the game and Manchin is expected...and the line that Schumer will look at to see anything unexpected. Like say, if any of the "squad" agreeing with Manchin.

    Other lines getting scrutiny; the fractures in the GOP. And Manchin knows if he's a single voice in the dems playing hardball over something they don't want to budge on, Schumer might find that one vote on the other side.

  2. #2502
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    We're literally discussing the red flags.
    You think you are, but we're not. There are no red flags yet. If you think the operating rules agreement is a red flag, it's not - it's still McConnell in control. Once the Senate is doing regular business, then we can talk red flags.

    And I'm in agreement with you on one thing, there is a LOT to worry about this year. If the Dems don't get stuff passed, they are fucked.

  3. #2503
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Schumer and Pelosi have learned.
    Fucking. Prove it. Show actionable evidence over the past ten years that they've learned from their mistakes. And if the response is "wait and see" you're going on ignore.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  4. #2504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I think you're missing the point for the trees, here.

    Most of those major landmark decisions were increments towards a goal. The Emancipation Proclamation was just a single first, important, step on the path towards racial justice. That's a path that's had to go through Jim Crow laws and segregation (technically a step forward from enslavement), through the Civil Rights movement, and onward into today, where it's still being trodden, with the BLM movement among others. It absolutely did not amount to one single, giant leap all of a sudden.

    The same goes for pretty much any other example you can think of. Pick an issue, and I'll point out how there were a multitude of prior, earlier steps towards that goal, either legislative or cultural or both (as legislative attitudes reflect culture, largely, they can't be considered separately).

    Some of those small steps can be so momentous in the moment that they'll trigger passions so hard they cause riots and even civil wars, but it doesn't make them something other than the incremental step that they were.

    The entire point of incrementalism as a viewpoint is that you look for the long-term goals, and determine if you're moving closer or further away, and as long as the answer is "closer", you're okay with that, or even if you manage to hold steady against a strong regressive movement trying to set you back. The alternative, which is becoming far too common, is to pick some arbitrary short-term goalpost, ignore the long-term view, and then demand to achieve that short-term goalpost in full right now or shit's fucked RIOT. Take the push for M4A, if you want an example; they generally lose sight of the long-term goal (making sure everyone's health is protected) in favor of one specific step forward on that issue, rejecting any different steps because they're not this step. Even if they're steps on paths leading to that same long-term goal.
    The emancipation was never set up for equality though. Lincoln didn't really think of black people as equal or deserving of being treated fairly... part of his plan included sending the new free to settle colonies in Latin America because there was just no way for blacks and whites to live together. So from the viewpoint of what the government was trying to accomplish they did it. Racial justice wasn't so much part of it. The jim crow laws, the segregations, the disaster that was reconstruction were all failures due to the government becoming tired with working on the issue.

    The failures that happened after the civil war, letting states back in when we knew they weren't loyal (10% rule). The years following we had de jure slavery (and still do) and then de facto slavery. I never said there weren't a multitude of issues and small things prior... what I am arguing is that the fight is there... but it waxes and wanes... and finally it bubbles over.

    Like say we have a progress bar that starts at 10 and needs to get to 100.. we will spend years, decades between 10-40 and ultimately end up at 100 within short time. The other issue I take with incrementalism is just that... it can be undone, and we just see it happening over and over and over and over.

    We get a lot and then it gets whittled and whittled and whittled. and then we get a person who is pushed by progressives policies and we get a little back but not as much as what was whittled away and I am not certain anything good will come of this presidency in the long term.

    There is a thin thin thin margin and it is very likely the democrats could lose their advantage, they won't lose their advantage because of progressives bitching... they'll likely lose it because of the same issues I had on election night. When Biden won out of the gate prominent democrats were literally attacking progressives (who won their elections or took moderate democrat seats) for the "tight" margins and saying the democrats need to focus on "kitchen table issues" the ones white "working class" people care about... never mind that that's the side more likely to make over 100k...

    For a modern example of incrementalism in failure, look at the ACA something that the democrats passed specifically to appease Republicans when they could have done more. As they felt they would incrementally expand it. Instead...we just see attacks attacks and weakening. Even when their own constituents want it. are we close or further away from M4A? If we are closer is it thanks to incrementalism? Or because the public is more vested in this issue and due to pressure from the outside we are closer? If we take any larger steps forward (which is seems we may) what made that possible wasn't incrementalism. Looking at that example we have gone backwards from progressing towards M4A yet... it seems closer and more feasible now, not because we are incrementally moving towards it, but because it is on the forefront of many people's minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Fucking. Prove it. Show actionable evidence over the past ten years that they've learned from their mistakes. And if the response is "wait and see" you're going on ignore.
    She'll prove it, after just one more term
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  5. #2505
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentGreymane View Post
    Our bored beltway pundits.

    Glad to see that the official white house pet twitter is trolling them.
    https://twitter.com/TheOvalPawffice
    ..not gonna lie, I just squeed over the idea of the Oval Pawffice. My SO came to check what the fuck that noise was, they haven't heard me squee. Then we squeed together over how fucking adorable the idea of. The Oval Pawffice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  6. #2506
    Well thanks Sinema and Manchin for no legislation next 2 years and loss of Senate and likely House in 2022.

    Honestly the spineless Dems wanted it this way so now they don't have to work at anything. Im just tired of it.

    @cubby. With your reply to me a few pages back and now, I don't see why you are carrying the water for Joe Manchin. This is not even some uber left bill. This makes it sure the Dems can pass crap.

    You kept saying it was smart of Manchin to get what he wants. Actually by killing the Filibuster he would have the utmost power. A bill comes up that we must all wear pink knitted caps, Manchin has the power. Yes, if he wants to an ass he could get something for West Virginia in order so we all wear pink, knitted hats.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  7. #2507
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Well thanks Sinema and Manchin for no legislation next 2 years and loss of Senate and likely House in 2022.
    I bet voters in Georgia are feeling pretty betrayed right about now since Manchin and Sinema basically stole their victory.

    But hey as we all know it's not a red flag if the first thing you do when you come into power when you were elected on a platform of action is make assurances that nothing will fundamentally change. /s
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  8. #2508
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Look, I'm sorry, but I'm literally not following your point here. Call it brain fart at the end of a long work day for me - but can you, like, spell it out for me like I was six years old. What does the Bernie issue have to do with the filibuster issue, specifically. How is that the "Bernie" problem?
    (I swear I'm not being anything more than unintentionally dense here - it's just not clicking at all for me atm)

    - - - Updated - - -

    (I mean, for christ's sake, I'm not even using "literally" correct - help!)
    Bernie has been speaking publically about getting rid of the filibuster and about passing through what they want using reconciliation. While moderates democrats speak with other senators about how they aren't backing either of those solutions to the current issue. In essence... Democratic senators speaking about how they do not support the actions that the chair of the senate budget committee wants to take. Hence their Bernie issue. Vowing to not do this and that, that Bernie has said he wanted to do.

    Instead, they want to focus on speeding up vaccines. I guess when everyone is vaccinated they can try to struggle to find work and pay off debt over 20 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I bet voters in Georgia are feeling pretty betrayed right about now since Manchin and Sinema basically stole their victory.

    But hey as we all know it's not a red flag if the first thing you do when you come into power when you were elected on a platform of action is make assurances that nothing will fundamentally change. /s
    Speaking of that quote. Sure seems to be the case.

    Vote to expand judges due to stolen seats and seats held up and filled by the hundreds? Nah because "we can't do that then the republicans will do it too!" As if they already haven't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  9. #2509
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Speaking of that quote. Sure seems to be the case.

    Vote to expand judges due to stolen seats and seats held up and filled by the hundreds? Nah because "we can't do that then the republicans will do it too!" As if they already haven't.
    "No guys but if we don't let Manchin and McConnell hold everything up for 2 years then Manchin and McConnell will hold everything up for two years" being the best argument these people can muster is telling as to how indefensible their position actually is.

    Mark my words: 2022 is going to be a repeat of 2010, and we'll have people like Cubby telling us there was no way we could have seen this happen and lamenting the lack of warning signs.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-01-26 at 02:45 AM.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  10. #2510
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    These are the people who just don't know what to do... Do they try to get shit done or... do they just let Mitch get another term as de facto Senate majority leader? What tough choices.
    Senator Tester (D)

    Senator Coons (D)

    Senator Manchin (D)

    Senator Sinema (D)

    Senator Feinstein (D)

    Senator King (I)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    "No guys but if we don't let Manchin and McConnell hold everything up for 2 years then Manchin and McConnell will hold everything up for two years" being the best argument these people can muster is telling as to how indefensible their position actually is.

    Mark my words: 2022 is going to be a repeat of 2010, and we'll have people like Cubby telling us there was no way we could have seen this happen and lamenting the lack of warning signs.
    Kind of why after the election I pretty much just do not see a future for me here...

    I mean... i do not see 2022 being great. Nothing has fundamentally changed. The ripest time for a change IS NOW not fucking a year and a half later or a year later.

    What happens then "we can't do that, i have an election!" When the immediate reaction by senate democrats is to act against the very fucking people who voted in this trifecta, is to act as if it is fucking 2008 the outcome will be 2010. It's like how Obama didn't roll back Bush tax cuts or you know... did a bill to protect people because blah blah "together, compromise, change" blah blah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  11. #2511
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Aind of why after the election I pretty much just do not see a future for me here...

    I mean... i do not see 2022 being great. Nothing has fundamentally changed. The ripest time for a change IS NOW not fucking a year and a half later or a year later.

    What happens then "we can't do that, i have an election!" When the immediate reaction by senate democrats is to act against the very fucking people who voted in this trifecta, is to act as if it is fucking 2008 the outcome will be 2010. It's like how Obama didn't roll back Bush tax cuts or you know... did a bill to protect people because blah blah "together, compromise, change" blah blah.
    Yep.

    "It's day five" is going to turn in to "they're still working things out, you know how difficult McConnell is" will turn into "we can't vote on that/do that, it's too close to an election for vulnerable seats in Congress" and finally "oh wow we got cleaned up in the election! now we need to scramble to prevent a fascist takeover of the country yet again".

    And then we'll get gaslit and told this was unavoidable and unforeseeable while the people who actually did the legwork getting the Democrats into power have to explain to all the first time voters they signed up why their money and effort wasn't wasted despite it having bought them fuck all besides keeping the GOP out of power.

    I really don't think the people defending the Democrats here grasp just how tenuous people's trust in them actually is.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-01-26 at 02:51 AM.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  12. #2512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Manchin is being Manchin. *agrees with cubby* Schumer knows the game and Manchin is expected...and the line that Schumer will look at to see anything unexpected. Like say, if any of the "squad" agreeing with Manchin.

    Other lines getting scrutiny; the fractures in the GOP. And Manchin knows if he's a single voice in the dems playing hardball over something they don't want to budge on, Schumer might find that one vote on the other side.
    And I agree with you - we have to consider GOP fractures, especially if/when The Donald starts seeing a real collapse of his empire and hold on the GOP purse strings.

  13. #2513
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    And I agree with you - we have to consider GOP fractures, especially if/when The Donald starts seeing a real collapse of his empire and hold on the GOP purse strings.
    Trump is not the problem... he is a symptom of the problem. You are making a mistake if you are banking on Trump being less popular to somehow collapse the GOP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  14. #2514
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Fucking. Prove it. Show actionable evidence over the past ten years that they've learned from their mistakes. And if the response is "wait and see" you're going on ignore.
    (EDIT)

    You're saying that if I continue to make the same point I've been making, you're going to ignore me? And that proves you've been paying attention and understanding my position how again?

    Since you've asked for specifics just so I can keep on watching you beat your head against the wall, the example so far is Schumer isn't backing down on the filibuster issue.

    Also, I'm still waiting for your suggestions on what the Democrats could/should do differently right now. Please provide those now, since I honored your request. Otherwise...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Well thanks Sinema and Manchin for no legislation next 2 years and loss of Senate and likely House in 2022.

    Honestly the spineless Dems wanted it this way so now they don't have to work at anything. Im just tired of it.

    @cubby. With your reply to me a few pages back and now, I don't see why you are carrying the water for Joe Manchin. This is not even some uber left bill. This makes it sure the Dems can pass crap.

    You kept saying it was smart of Manchin to get what he wants. Actually by killing the Filibuster he would have the utmost power. A bill comes up that we must all wear pink knitted caps, Manchin has the power. Yes, if he wants to an ass he could get something for West Virginia in order so we all wear pink, knitted hats.
    Did they pass the Operating Agreement yet? I'm still seeing it in negotiations.

    Agreed about killing the filibuster - I'm not sure why he isn't seeing the broader picture. I'm not trying to carry water for Manchin, and I agree with your point overall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Bernie has been speaking publically about getting rid of the filibuster and about passing through what they want using reconciliation. While moderates democrats speak with other senators about how they aren't backing either of those solutions to the current issue. In essence... Democratic senators speaking about how they do not support the actions that the chair of the senate budget committee wants to take. Hence their Bernie issue. Vowing to not do this and that, that Bernie has said he wanted to do.

    Instead, they want to focus on speeding up vaccines. I guess when everyone is vaccinated they can try to struggle to find work and pay off debt over 20 years?
    Gotcha - and thank you. I was just not connecting those dots.

    It will be interesting to see how the Operating Agreement plays out. Putting the filibuster out of play for two years is dangerous. Bernie openly saying to use it along with reconciliation is good, but short sighted in my opinion. Bernie has always had a problem playing a longish game in these negotiations - for better or worse. You can see how Biden played it cool in other areas and showed him to be the better politician.

    One larger issue, regarding in a broader sense, speeding up the vaccines, is that the country will recover faster. Faster recovery means a better economic outlook, and that imo will largely help the Democrats in 2022. Obviously we'll have to see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Trump is not the problem... he is a symptom of the problem. You are making a mistake if you are banking on Trump being less popular to somehow collapse the GOP.
    I agree he's a symptom, but he is causing a number of problems on his own. I'm not banking on anything, but Trump collapsing won't help the GOP.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-01-26 at 03:37 AM.

  15. #2515
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post

    One larger issue, regarding in a broader sense, speeding up the vaccines, is that the country will recover faster. Faster recovery means a better economic outlook, and that imo will largely help the Democrats in 2022. Obviously we'll have to see.

    - - - Updated - - -
    People haven't recovered from the 2008 collapse... what makes you think opening up the economy will really help?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  16. #2516
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    People haven't recovered from the 2008 collapse... what makes you think opening up the economy will really help?
    Because it will seem better economically, and it will literally be better regarding COVID-19. Everything being on the upswing could be helpful for the Dems in the 2022 election.

    I guess my point is that it will a little bit of reality and a lot of perception.

  17. #2517
    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Well thanks Sinema and Manchin for no legislation next 2 years and loss of Senate and likely House in 2022.

    Honestly the spineless Dems wanted it this way so now they don't have to work at anything. Im just tired of it.

    @cubby. With your reply to me a few pages back and now, I don't see why you are carrying the water for Joe Manchin. This is not even some uber left bill. This makes it sure the Dems can pass crap.

    You kept saying it was smart of Manchin to get what he wants. Actually by killing the Filibuster he would have the utmost power. A bill comes up that we must all wear pink knitted caps, Manchin has the power. Yes, if he wants to an ass he could get something for West Virginia in order so we all wear pink, knitted hats.
    It's probably a good time to just look at cute animals for awhile.

    Very Online People don't do political theater well. The Senate took a couple of days to start operating and some politicians repeated things they’ve said before.
    Overwrought day-to-day point scoring? How normal.

  18. #2518
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    "Why do progressives want credit for progressive policies that our non-progressive candidate may possibly be thinking about considering enacting 60 years late?" is an interesting spin.
    If it actually went through without a veto, while the progressives are a very minor and weak faction of the Democratic party, why would they thus then take full credit for something that would largely take the efforts of non progressives to happen? Yes, that IS an interesting "spin".
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  19. #2519
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentGreymane View Post
    It's probably a good time to just look at cute animals for awhile.

    Very Online People don't do political theater well. The Senate took a couple of days to start operating and some politicians repeated things they’ve said before.
    Overwrought day-to-day point scoring? How normal.
    And that's the point I was trying to make. Can't declare defeat on Day 7 out of 731 when the battle hasn't even started.

  20. #2520
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    And that's the point I was trying to make. Can't declare defeat on Day 7 out of 731 when the battle hasn't even started.
    If you begin a fight by allowing your opponent to punch you in the face first.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

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