1. #2521
    @cubby

    Did they pass the Operating Agreement yet? I'm still seeing it in negotiations.

    Agreed about killing the filibuster - I'm not sure why he isn't seeing the broader picture. I'm not trying to carry water for Manchin, and I agree with your point
    I will say, not knowing my Senate procedures, they can ask to eliminate the filibuster anytime. Yet, if they m, talking bout the Dems saying 'no' atm, in the first 100 days, then it's springing it in next 2 years does not give me hope.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

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  2. #2522
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    I will say, not knowing my Senate procedures, they can ask to eliminate the filibuster anytime. Yet, if they m, talking bout the Dems saying 'no' atm, in the first 100 days, then it's springing it in next 2 years does not give me hope.
    Interesting. I would approve of any negotiation that still allows, at some point in time, the filibuster to be yanked. Keeping it for the first 100 days but then opening it up to later seems like a win, because the next 100 days is going to be COVID relief/vaccination and Trump's Impeachment.

    Are they talking about doing it that way? Or something similar?

  3. #2523
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    For a modern example of incrementalism in failure, look at the ACA something that the democrats passed specifically to appease Republicans when they could have done more. As they felt they would incrementally expand it. Instead...we just see attacks attacks and weakening. Even when their own constituents want it. are we close or further away from M4A? If we are closer is it thanks to incrementalism? Or because the public is more vested in this issue and due to pressure from the outside we are closer? If we take any larger steps forward (which is seems we may) what made that possible wasn't incrementalism. Looking at that example we have gone backwards from progressing towards M4A yet... it seems closer and more feasible now, not because we are incrementally moving towards it, but because it is on the forefront of many people's minds.
    ACA was incremental? A law that literally rewrote the entire healthcare system of the United States overnight is nothing less then a radical change, that it wasn't M4A ( which likely would have never gotten even 20 votes in the Senate let alone 60 ) doesn't change that reality. In point of fact this is what almost damned it, and Democrats should feel very happy Roberts didn't strike the entire law down as he apparently wanted to initially before changing his mind.

    What saved ACA is the fact that Republicans tried to do their own radical change to dismantle it and people were furious over it. If M4A ever happens it certainly will not be because of your thinking, it will be in spite of it. You want universal healthcare? Great, how about convincing California for starters: The richest state in the country with a massive budget surplus completely controlled by Democrats on every level. If you can't pass it there to start and then work on convincing other states to do it then it will never happen on federal level.

    The most significant movements in more recent history succeeded because of incremental change: The Civil Rights movement took close to a decade and a half with a slew of decisions made on an executive, judicial and legislative level to achieve success, including no less then four Civil Rights Acts and the Voting Rights Act. The LGBT movement has achieved great strides including legalization of Gay Marriage not because of some federal decision but because of incremental changes on a state level and legislative and judicial battles that resulted in almost two thirds of the country having it legalized by the time the Supreme Court made it's final ruling. Then we have the movement the legalize weed which is succeeding again because of incremental changes especially on a state by state level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Well thanks Sinema and Manchin for no legislation next 2 years and loss of Senate and likely House in 2022.

    Honestly the spineless Dems wanted it this way so now they don't have to work at anything. Im just tired of it.
    Sinema and Manchin are skilled political operators from red states, deep red in the case of WV, that are not interested in whatever agenda you think the dems should adopt. They are taking a stance that will maximize their own power as individual senators and get them to have a far more significant say.

    Why do you think Susan Collins flat out told Trump and McConnell she was not going to rid of the filibuster? Also because they are moderates/centrists who don't enjoy the partisan street-fighting that ( quite literally ) has taken over Congress.

    As for 2022. The Senate is a toss-up because of Georgia and Arizona, but the House? Yeah the House is quite likely going red. People didn't enjoy the way Pelosi has run it since 2018 which is why she has the weakest working majority the Democrats have had in a while and next election she won't have the idiot orange guy on the ballot, though voters didn't enjoy the first impeachment battle at all it seems.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2021-01-26 at 04:36 AM.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

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  4. #2524
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    If you begin a fight by allowing your opponent to punch you in the face first.....
    But there's no punch. There is no "red flag" (I'm looking at you Elegiac). Nothing has happened yet, literally. They are still talking about the rules.

    I get what you're saying, and losing end the chance at the filibuster would be an initial loss out of the gates. We'll have to see how it plays out (uh-oh, I think I chimed someone's ignore list ).

  5. #2525
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    And that's the point I was trying to make. Can't declare defeat on Day 7 out of 731 when the battle hasn't even started.
    Very Online People are used to just handing over their money to Blizzard or Comcast. What's happening in the Senate is not one of those transactions.

    McConnell was playing for a jailbreak and didn’t get it. Manchin and Sinema said the same thing they’ve said before. McConnell picked this fight, lost and is now doing a little CYA.

    The important thing is that the caucus held. Bringing them around to reform is and was always going to be a process that likely requires repeated GOP obstruction.

  6. #2526
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentGreymane View Post
    Very Online People are used to just handing over their money to Blizzard or Comcast. What's happening in the Senate is not one of those transactions.

    McConnell was playing for a jailbreak and didn’t get it. Manchin and Sinema said the same thing they’ve said before. McConnell picked this fight, lost and is now doing a little CYA.

    The important thing is that the caucus held. Bringing them around to reform is and was always going to be a process that likely requires repeated GOP obstruction.
    Fan-fucking-tastic.

    Schumer rejected the GOP leader's demands, saying Monday afternoon: "We are not letting McConnell dictate how the Senate operates." Monday night the operating agreement passed without the filibuster stipulation.

    The Dems scored a point in the first round.

  7. #2527
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    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    ACA was incremental? A law that literally rewrote the entire healthcare system of the United States overnight is nothing less then a radical change, that it wasn't M4A ( which likely would have never gotten even 20 votes in the Senate let alone 60 ) doesn't change that reality. In point of fact this is what almost damned it, and Democrats should feel very happy Roberts didn't strike the entire law down as he apparently wanted to initially before changing his mind.

    What saved ACA is the fact that Republicans tried to do their own radical change to dismantle it and people were furious over it. If M4A ever happens it certainly will not be because of your thinking, it will be in spite of it. You want universal healthcare? Great, how about convincing California for starters: The richest state in the country with a massive budget surplus completely controlled by Democrats on every level. If you can't pass it there to start and then work on convincing other states to do it then it will never happen on federal level.

    The most significant movements in more recent history succeeded because of incremental change: The Civil Rights movement took close to a decade and a half with a slew of decisions made on an executive, judicial and legislative level to achieve success, including no less then four Civil Rights Acts and the Voting Rights Act. The LGBT movement has achieved great strides including legalization of Gay Marriage not because of some federal decision but because of incremental changes on a state level and legislative and judicial battles that resulted in almost two thirds of the country having it legalized by the time the Supreme Court made it's final ruling. Then we have the movement the legalize weed which is succeeding again because of incremental changes especially on a state by state level.



    Sinema and Manchin are skilled political operators from red states, deep red in the case of WV, that are not interested in whatever agenda you think the dems should adopt. They are taking a stance that will maximize their own power as individual senators and get them to have a far more significant say.

    Why do you think Susan Collins flat out told Trump and McConnell she was not going to rid of the filibuster? Also because they are moderates/centrists who don't enjoy the partisan street-fighting that ( quite literally ) has taken over Congress.

    As for 2022. The Senate is a toss-up because of Georgia and Arizona, but the House? Yeah the House is quite likely going red. People didn't enjoy the way Pelosi has run it since 2018 which is why she has the weakest working majority the Democrats have had in a while and next election she won't have the idiot orange guy on the ballot, though voters didn't enjoy the first impeachment battle at all it seems.
    The goal was single payer... aca is an incremental change to get to single payer which is the legislation. Civil rights passed yet half a century later we are talking about voting rights...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  8. #2528
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The goal was single payer... aca is an incremental change to get to single payer which is the legislation. Civil rights passed yet half a century later we are talking about voting rights...
    Was it now? That's a nice claim that isn't really supported by any available facts that I've seen about the way ACA itself was debated by the democrats at the time, in point of fact they made a point that it wasn't about pushing for a single-payer system.

    Oh sure some people wanna say NOW when they get asked "Why didn't you do M4A" ( the reason is M4A wouldn't even get 20 votes in the Senate let alone 50-60 ) that they supported ACA at the time to eventually push for single-payer, that is true, but ACA was not some incremental change to the system, it was a massive redesign.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2021-01-26 at 04:53 AM.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

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  9. #2529
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Was it now? That's a nice claim that isn't really supported by any available facts that I've seen about the way ACA itself was debated by the democrats at the time, in point of fact they made a point that it wasn't about pushing for a single-payer system.

    Oh sure some people wanna say NOW when they get asked "Why didn't you do M4A" ( the reason is M4A wouldn't even get 20 votes in the Senate let alone 50-60 ) that they supported ACA at the time to eventually push for single-payer, that is true, but ACA was not some incremental change to the system, it was a massive redesign.
    I know how this will end, but I'll try regardless. Do you have any cites or facts to back up your statement (bolded above)?

  10. #2530
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Because it will seem better economically, and it will literally be better regarding COVID-19. Everything being on the upswing could be helpful for the Dems in the 2022 election.
    I hate this. I don't think you meant for it to be so offputting but I'm going to tell you why.

    COVID didn't kill the economy. It poked the bleeding knife wound we were covering with a band-aid. Trump did a shit job at his response efforts. At the same time, the country only endures so much because there's not a safety net for our economy. No pause button. No brakes. Essential workers have to go to work PPE, no PPE, sick leave, no sick leave, sick, not sick. While some people were working from home and ordering breadmakers, Amazon warehouse workers were in a petri dish. While people were hoarding toilet paper there was a store clerk who had to keep the shelves stocked without so much as a can of Lysol. Already overworked nurses who probably would've felt better working in a 1920s coal mine. None of those people benefit from the economy seeming better. There's going to be a lot of people in 2022 and 2024 looking thinking about whether or not current officials made their lives better or just made it seem like it will get better. There won't be a Trump standing behind them this time either.

    Democrats don't do good when things seem better. Democrats aren't graded on the same curve as Republicans nor should they want to. Republicans can get away with the empty promises and the magic tricks. McConnell mastered it. When Democrats do it they lose complete control of the government - ask Obama.

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  11. #2531
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Was it now? That's a nice claim that isn't really supported by any available facts that I've seen about the way ACA itself was debated by the democrats at the time, in point of fact they made a point that it wasn't about pushing for a single-payer system.

    Oh sure some people wanna say NOW when they get asked "Why didn't you do M4A" ( the reason is M4A wouldn't even get 20 votes in the Senate let alone 50-60 ) that they supported ACA at the time to eventually push for single-payer, that is true, but ACA was not some incremental change to the system, it was a massive redesign.
    Chuck Schumer literally did an interview over the summer regarding healthcare where he said in the interview on TV ON MSNBC that they compromised and passed a conservative bill because they felt it would be a framework that the republicans would use to expand and grow hence... incremental changes towards single-payer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  12. #2532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Or when the headline each day wasn't "Four thousand Americans died" followed by sighing.
    Joke's on you, conservative media has been blaming Biden for the 4k deaths every day since Jan 20th.

    Meanwhile, Biden taps Fauci to be the US delegate for the WHO (World Health Organization, not the band) and in listening to NPR today, they interviewed Fauci, where he said he went into a meeting with president Biden. He remarked on the stark contrast between the Trump administration, which he saw as a room full of monkies flinging shit at each other. Whereas his first meeting with Biden he remarked was basically Biden saying "No excuses, no crying that it's someone else's fault, let's just fix this."

    Gee gosh, it's as if Biden is governing as an actual president should. He might not be the most progressive of progressively progressive progressivists, and thus Progressives and progressive media bitch and moan and whine every day that he's either not doing the right thing, or if he is, he's not doing good enough, but damn, I am enjoying some peace of mind finally.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  13. #2533
    Like were people really expect that the filibuster was gonna be gone? We needed a much bigger win in 2020 for that to have happened. Winning both GA seats was good, but a 50/50 split was never gonna get rid of the filibuster. If dems had picked up Maine, Iowa, Montana, I think even SC was a toss up, but we didn't win. Hell we almost didn't even have a 50/50 split to begin with.

    It sucks, it's a stupid mechanism, it should get rid of, but cmon, thinking it's going away is pie in the sky.

    The thought of it going away being on the table if the GoP really fuck around, is a BIG dem win, one that I actually didn't expect. Right now, it's ammunition, that the Dem's probably will never use, but let's see Obama level GoP obstruction over the next couple months and see if certain senators who are saying something now, change their minds.

  14. #2534
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Joke's on you, conservative media has been blaming Biden for the 4k deaths every day since Jan 20th.

    Meanwhile, Biden taps Fauci to be the US delegate for the WHO (World Health Organization, not the band) and in listening to NPR today, they interviewed Fauci, where he said he went into a meeting with president Biden. He remarked on the stark contrast between the Trump administration, which he saw as a room full of monkies flinging shit at each other. Whereas his first meeting with Biden he remarked was basically Biden saying "No excuses, no crying that it's someone else's fault, let's just fix this."

    Gee gosh, it's as if Biden is governing as an actual president should. He might not be the most progressive of progressively progressive progressivists, and thus Progressives and progressive media bitch and moan and whine every day that he's either not doing the right thing, or if he is, he's not doing good enough, but damn, I am enjoying some peace of mind finally.
    Is there a reason why you want to co-op what progressive is? Like is this some weird fucking obsession that Americans just can't fucking get over????

    Democrats? Far-left radicals.... centrist Democrat? PROGRESSIVE GOD!!! Like my fucking god everything in the eyes of Americans is skewed to such a degree passing basic shit a RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE IN EUROPE WOULD DO THAT IS IN NO WAY A PROGRESSIVE is "progressive" in America.

    Being super shit to the point basic shit is super progressive does not a progressive makes, it just makes us a little less shitty and slightly saner towards actual centrism.

    Tapping a fucking scientist to do science isn't "progressive" Only in America can such a thing be "progressive".

    It's like saying Uganda is progressive compared to a country that doesn't outright murder all lgbt people in the streets. Instead, they just jail them for life and maybe give them the death penalty! Progressive Uganda!! Do you see how stupid that is?

    Doing something that makes sense like... using a scientist for science... isn't progressive. Undoing a ban for trans people isn't progressive, it isn't even fucking progress, it's literally one step back one step forward. That's stagnation.

    People like you are why the progressive wing of the party needs to really really push hard... because people filled to the eyeballs with folly will try to claim the most dumb shit as them being a progressive. Nancy Pelosi a progressive because she says so and rips up a speech?

    He is a centrist, and the progressive work that is getting done a lot of it comes down to pressure and the people asking for it. I mean what pure foolishness is it to claim that he isn't being pushed by progressives? Are you the same one to agrees with the idea that progressives can't claim to have swayed biden on progressive issues he DID NOT SUPPORT but came to over time as progressives kept pushing him on those issues?

    Common sense should let you see why your entire argument didn't make sense before and still does not make sense today.
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-01-26 at 05:28 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  15. #2535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Chuck Schumer literally did an interview over the summer regarding healthcare where he said in the interview on TV ON MSNBC that they compromised and passed a conservative bill because they felt it would be a framework that the republicans would use to expand and grow hence... incremental changes towards single-payer.
    So, they were completely delusional regarding exactly what kind of people they were sitting across the aisle from.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  16. #2536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    So, they were completely delusional regarding exactly what kind of people they were sitting across the aisle from.
    allllll the way back then... and look what happened. They blocked obama stopped filling judgeships filled hundreds of them, and have a 6-3 majority on THE SCOTUS the thing that is suppose to be the supreme law has 6 seats placed by a minority party...

    And where are we now???

    Well the democrats arne't sure about stopping the filibuster and you see... that's just not how they do things. Also maybe 1.9 trillion is too much?! Let's just open up? Waht about the debt that's been accruing since the summer? Well fuck them, I mean the senate average net worth is only..... let me google.... about $6.5mn in 2012. I mean what the fuck do they care 2k is tooooo much!

    Oh and you know what.. let's "work together with the republicans and find a compromise between letting citizens die and starve to death and struggle with crippling debt or... just letting them suffer" Oh what to do.

    2022 - Red stream with a slim GOP majority is what I see on the horizon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  17. #2537
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I hate this. I don't think you meant for it to be so offputting but I'm going to tell you why.
    I appreciate the sincerity and reaching out, but I would like to offer a counter point: it's not offputting to everyone, just.... Something to keep in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    COVID didn't kill the economy. It poked the bleeding knife wound we were covering with a band-aid. Trump did a shit job at his response efforts. At the same time, the country only endures so much because there's not a safety net for our economy. No pause button. No brakes. Essential workers have to go to work PPE, no PPE, sick leave, no sick leave, sick, not sick. While some people were working from home and ordering breadmakers, Amazon warehouse workers were in a petri dish. While people were hoarding toilet paper there was a store clerk who had to keep the shelves stocked without so much as a can of Lysol. Already overworked nurses who probably would've felt better working in a 1920s coal mine. None of those people benefit from the economy seeming better. There's going to be a lot of people in 2022 and 2024 looking thinking about whether or not current officials made their lives better or just made it seem like it will get better. There won't be a Trump standing behind them this time either.

    Democrats don't do good when things seem better. Democrats aren't graded on the same curve as Republicans nor should they want to. Republicans can get away with the empty promises and the magic tricks. McConnell mastered it. When Democrats do it they lose complete control of the government - ask Obama.
    My point isn't just that it seems that way, but that it really is (and will be) better. COVID will be defeated (assuming no mutations destroy humanity) and because of that the economy will be in an upswing. Neither of those things will be false any things - they will be literally happening. You skipped commenting on that part.

    Your point about some workers getting the absolute shaft from Trump's lack-of-response but blaming the current [Biden] officials is apt, and there is nothing to do about it. It will be what it will be.

    COVID defeated because we finally have a human being running things.
    Economy up because just by the nature of people going to back to abandoned services the economy will fire back up.

    And to be clear, I agree with you. The GOP wins on false promises and outright lies - we saw that with Trump and the GOP's overall version of reality. And the Democrats win by.... Well, I'm not sure there is a straight formula there. Interesting.

  18. #2538
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Like were people really expect that the filibuster was gonna be gone?
    I wonder how realistic it would have been to not just remove the filibuster, but to put it back right when the balance of power was about to change.

  19. #2539
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I wonder how realistic it would have been to not just remove the filibuster, but to put it back right when the balance of power was about to change.
    I just don't get why the democrats are trying to support a rule that almost let a bunch of racist win in blocking civil rights...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  20. #2540
    Biden says he is open to negotiating the proposed $1,400 COVID stimulus checks. Welp, there goes that promise, I look forward to the good Democrats explaining and hand waving hard on that. I cannot wait to hear then excuses on that.

    Remember Biden previously?


    Then it became "Ummm ACKSHULLY 1400 because 1400+600=2000" then " not till March" then "maybe in April?" now "Ummm expect less than 1400..... if you count using a system other than base 10 it becomes 2k!"

    Another reminder:
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2021-01-26 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Got uber Fact Checked! A very consequential and important fact was incorrect! Sorry.

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