Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Endus]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkk offfffffffffffffff.

They did it about as willingly as someone "willingly" takes on medical debt. You cannot gate social mobility behind a for profit scheme and then claim "but personal responsibility" when that creates a perverse incentive, especially in such a heavily class ridden society like the US.

Nothing about forgiving the currently held student debt precludes fixing the system or vice versa. It's a non sequitur.

The key word that needs to be brought up again and again is "duress".

When you create a system that gatekeeps living in a modicum of comfort behind the attainment of post-secondary education, then individuals are pressured through the threat of hardship to enter into agreements to attain that education.

In any responsible society, such agreements should be unenforceable as contracts, because of the presence of duress. It's like telling a girl "if you don't marry me, I'll murder your family". That marriage would be invalid because it's made under duress. How is it different to say "if you don't take this student loan, you'll work meaningless jobs for a pittance that is never enough to cover the basics, leading to a lifetime of struggle and suffering"?

There's a pretty basic principle everyone should be aware of. If your system produces negative results, then there's a problem with your system.

[Breccia]

No, he was clear that his issue was the subject of means testing. You have a great many legal scholars and even people in the Senate saying such is entirely within his power

I’m going to get in trouble for saying this . . . it’s arguable that the president may have the executive power to forgive up to $50,000 in student debt... Well, I think that’s pretty questionable. I’m unsure of that. I’d be unlikely to do that.

I stand behind my depiction.

[Elegiac]

I stand behind my depiction.

I'm honestly more inclined to trust Warren on the subject than Biden, tbh.

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The key word that needs to be brought up again and again is "duress".

When you create a system that gatekeeps living in a modicum of comfort behind the attainment of post-secondary education, then individuals are pressured through the threat of hardship to enter into agreements to attain that education.

In any responsible society, such agreements should be unenforceable as contracts, because of the presence of duress. It's like telling a girl "if you don't marry me, I'll murder your family". That marriage would be invalid because it's made under duress. How is it different to say "if you don't take this student loan, you'll work meaningless jobs for a pittance that is never enough to cover the basics, leading to a lifetime of struggle and suffering"?

There's a pretty basic principle everyone should be aware of. If your system produces negative results, then there's a problem with your system.

The weird thing is we have this sector of people who acknowledge that the system is bad but yet refuse to actually take any steps to address it because it might help people who don't "deserve" it.

Which... Okay, I don't know what those people think that says about their ostensible liberalism that they think gating social mobility behind tests of personal virtue is a good thing but it certainly isn't flattering to the rest of us.

[Breccia]

I'm honestly more inclined to trust Warren on the subject than Biden, tbh.

Honestly, they can't both be right, so I won't fault you for that.

[Milchshake]

So, no one you can actually describe? Lol.

Like I said, it's a boogeyman analogue to the Welfare Queen. Check yourself.

Because the tuition and debt for a state school is much lower than private. So that $10k wipes out a significant part or all of that debt.

It really helps the poor kids that only went to school or community college for a year. Then dropped out due to circumstances.

You know the ones still outside of the gates....

[Elegiac]

Because the tuition and debt for a state school is much lower than private. So that $10k wipes out a significant part or all of that debt.

So, yeah. No one you can actually describe besides some generalised hypothetical in the vein of the Welfare Queen. :thumbsup:

You know what else would wipe out that debt while helping the rest of the people impacted by the crisis? Total amnesty. I'm not seeing an argument against it besides, again, a very tenuous argument about who is "deserving" of assistance which...

What are you, Republican? Lol.

[Breccia]

You know what else would wipe out that debt while helping the rest of the people impacted by the crisis? Total amnesty.

Amnesty for people who still owe without dealing with people who paid theirs off isn't fair. Deal with that, throw in how it's paid for, and I'm sold.

I expect that'll take six months.

[Elegiac]

Amnesty for people who still owe without dealing with people who paid theirs off isn't fair.

Would it be fair to all the people the trolley has killed thus far to divert it now?

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I expect that'll take six months.

You'd better hope so, or else you can kiss 2022 goodbye.

Black voters want student loan debt eliminated altogether. And without substantive action, a sizable chunk of Black voters may consider staying home during the next election, according to a new survey.

According to a national poll shared exclusively with NBC News, 67 percent of registered Black voters strongly support eliminating student loan debt. Overall, 84 percent support a full or partial elimination of student loan debt in the poll by the Global Strategy Group for Color of Change, a national civil rights advocacy organization. Fifty-six percent of Black voters have taken on debt to pay for higher education.

The racial disparity in student loan debt remains prevalent for Black people, based on research released in November 2019 by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. The researchers found that people in Black-majority neighborhoods were more likely to pay for college through borrowing, with 23 percent of Black residents taking out student loans. However, that figure drops to 17 percent among people in Latino-majority neighborhoods and 14 percent in white-majority areas.

[Breccia]

Would it be fair to all the people the trolley has killed thus far to divert it now?

And like that, your hyperbole kills the goodwill.

[Milchshake]

So, yeah. No one you can actually describe besides some generalised hypothetical in the vein of the Welfare Queen. :thumbsup:

You know what else would wipe out that debt while helping the rest of the people impacted by the crisis? Total amnesty. I'm not seeing an argument against it besides, again, a very tenuous argument about who is "deserving" of assistance which...

What are you, Republican? Lol.

Sorry, it's an observation from growing on the ground in the US. I cant explain it some globetrotters that constantly remind the board they're from Europe or abroad.

It's in the studies that have been linked. $10k of debt relief helps the largest cohort of borrowers. Misrepresenting that as some kind of culture warfare make you look the tory here.

And like that, your hyperbole kills the goodwill.

Thats the lesson of 2020. The majority that elected Biden are probably closer to his $10k than the fantasy numbers of online socialists.

[Elegiac]

Sorry, it's an observation from growing on the ground in the US. I cant explain it some globetrotters that constantly remind the board they're from Europe or abroad.

Yep, more blue welfare queen shit.

It's in the studies that have been linked. $10k of debt relief helps the largest cohort of borrowers. Misrepresenting that as some kind of culture warfare make you look the tory here.

Means testing is the Tory way, sweaty, not universal guarantees.

And again: total amnesty would help an even larger cohort of borrowers. You're not actually providing a counter to that besides repeating that it's not "fair" because people you don't deem "deserving" might benefit.

[Kathandira]

I have $4,000 left on my student loan. I will have it paid off before any sort of Forgiveness act is implemented.

I would vote 1,000 times again for student loan forgiveness. I don't care if I missed the bus, I know way too many people who still have student loan debt, where forgiveness would make a huge impact on their lives.

[Elegiac]

Thats the lesson of 2020. The majority that elected Biden are probably closer to his $10k than the fantasy numbers of online socialists.

I wasn't aware Chuck Schumer and Elizabeth Warren were online socialists, but clearly they must be since they're proposing five times that number.

[Felya]

I have $4,000 left on my student loan. I will have it paid off before any sort of Forgiveness act is implemented.

I would vote 1,000 times again for student loan forgiveness. I don't care if I missed the bus, I know way too many people who still have student loan debt, where forgiveness would make a huge impact on their lives.

My total loan was a bit more than half of what you have left and I paid it off 20 years ago... I support loan forgiveness as well. In fact, I support higher education for all. Fucking sick of incompetence... that’s my right wing argument for free higher education. I am sick of the incompetence of youth... get off my lawn and go to school!!!

[Breccia]

This is like saying it’s unfair to give amnesty to undocumented immigrants unless everyone else gets something out of it. Pure silliness.

No, people get tax breaks from previous years all the time. It really wouldn't be difficult to add.

[Themius]

Amnesty for people who still owe without dealing with people who paid theirs off isn't fair. Deal with that, throw in how it's paid for, and I'm sold.

I expect that'll take six months.

This is a terrible terrible take.

[Breccia]

This is a terrible terrible take.

And it's still hyperbole. Comparing people dying to people paying money is not an argument I'm going to indulge.

[JohnBrown1917]

This is a terrible terrible take.

This is pretty much all right-wing politics are good for, I doubt any of those posters will change on this issue. The ol' "Its not fair to stop people from getting fucked over because other people where fucked by it".

[Breccia]

"Its not fair to stop people from getting fucked over because other people where fucked by it".

Or, funny story, you could just say "the trolley company gets sued for the deaths of the first people and has to pay a lot of money". Which is what I'm saying.

[Themius]

And it's still hyperbole. Comparing people dying to people paying money is not an argument I'm going to indulge.

It is not hyperbole...

Your argument is as follows:

"It's unfair to get rid of student debt because it's already crushed people."

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/01/kil...icide_partner/

“What happens if you commit suicide?” This question appeared in the StudentLoans community on Reddit. “Just weighing my options.”

When asked “Why would you even think that?,” the original poster answers: “Seems like an alternative many people would choose if it ended the debt, to be honest.”

These young people are not alone — not by a long shot. According to a recent survey of current and former students between 20 and 39 years of age, 70 percent of them were $100K to $500K in debt. Because of this burden,
One in 11 deaths by suicide among young professionals was at least partly due to student loans;

One in 15 has contemplated suicide;

Over half (53 percent) have experienced depression;

Nine in 10 experienced significant anxiety.

“Debt has a clear impact on borrowers’ mental health,” said Melanie Lockert of Student Loan Planner, the financial coaching company that did the survey. “It is something we should be talking about.”

This is not the first research on the mental toll of student loans. Over the past few years, many researchers have correlated student debt with poor psychological functioning. However, it is a topic virtually ignored by the media.

A 2015 study found that the link between student loans and mental and emotional dysfunction persists across all income and social groups in the US.

And at least one study revealed the physical and social effects of debt-related stress. In 2017, a financial advising company called Student Loan Hero did a survey of over 1,000 student borrowers. More than 70 percent reported suffering from headaches, insomnia, and other physical symptoms of anxiety, which sometimes lead to self-imposed social isolation.

“I avoid doing things with friends and family,” one respondent said, “because I don’t want them to know how broke I am.”

“Student loan–induced stress is threatening to take over the lives of borrowers,” the survey concludes.

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Or, funny story, you could just say "the trolley company gets sued for the deaths of the first people and has to pay a lot of money". Which is what I'm saying.

So you want to continue to fuck over other people until you figure out how to make whole the previously fucked?

So you want to create more fucked people in the meantime while tackling that issue, instead of just not fucking people?