Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Themius]

Because the bill as it stands now is victory. Compromise happens and the Democrats are in a position now where we can't go whole hog - we need a stronger majority before that can happen. You calling it meager scraps is either willfully disingenuous or you haven't been paying attention.

What? That doesn't even make sense.

The bill sucks compared to other countries, but that is a systematic issue with our country overall, not just with the COVID response. Your poor analogies are irrelevant to that much larger issue.

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No, it doesn't - but the country as a whole does. All I'm saying is that a minimum wage hike isn't a necessary fix to the immediate problems of what COVID has done to the country - short term. We absolutely need it, but even if it passed right now, it wouldn't be implemented until 2022 at the earliest. Whereas the COVID relief bill has moneys for millions of people and businesses and local governments that will help immediately.

I agree with your point overall, of course. We are long due for a major minimum wage hike - what were the stats again? It should be at $24/hr if it stayed with inflation or CEO pay increases.

Covid has cause economic damage that will haunt two entire generations. Shit should be addressed now when democrats could do it.

WE both know it won't pass otherwise. If it doesn't go in, it just won't go period.

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Did you see the economist that pointed out the GOP tax break for the rich, if repealed, would pay for $2k/month checks for everyone in the United States for something like 8 months?

We might all be disagreeing on points of policy or intentions or strategy, but we can all agree that the GOP fucking sucks.

Too bad our president's administration isn't too concerned with repealing the majority of trump's tax cuts.

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- Getting Dems to understand their strategy isn't working, because even though they supposedly have the reigns in DC, they cannot get a meager stimulus and outdated minimum wage passed when the whole country wants during a pandemic that killed 500k people and is destroying the economy.

You are making the mistake of assuming democrats actually "care" to get these issue dealt with.

They are still the same people who make millions from their business interests, sit on boards, or own companies.

Backed by the interest that backs both sides.

It isn't that democrats "don't understand their strategy" It's more that democrats have perfect their strategy

And what's that?

"look we really care we care so much, we care. Not like those foul republicans. Look I am with you on getting money out of politics nevermind the hundreds of thousands i make sitting on boards or the speaking fees, or the campaigns paid for by my interets. I care!

However it seems that once again the republicans have defeated us through their disgusting trickery!! we trusted them after 2 decades of this and they fucked us! Only because we don't have a majority or control all chambers! So vote for us!"

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That's not the problem, that's a problem. Which I pointed out.

The problem is that you only have one functional political party capable of governance in DC. The problem is that Republicans would reject literally anything proposed by the Democrats unless it was a Republican wish-list. The problem is that they're not even willing to negotiate in good faith.



Unrelated problem to passing the stimulus.



Because, as I and others pointed out in November, Democratic control is by a razor thin margin and a few members of the House and especially Senate can derail a bill. Because the Democrats have a far larger tent and have to deal with more ideological diversity than Republicans (see your progressive Squad members/Sanders/Cori Bush etc. and folks like Manchin/Sinema/Feinstein).

It's hardly as simple of a situation as you present it to be, even though we all wish it was just that simple.

Don't make the mistake of thinking they actually give two shits... most of them have a very very checkered past with bad positions that you'd be hard pressed just by looking at them whether they're republican or democrat.

When Republicans have a thin margin you know what they do? Work. When democrats have a thin margin you know what they do?

complain about how they can't do anything though they could do things but then that's breaking tradition!

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Sigh.

I spend years telling you guys that the way to force the Repubs back closer to center is for the Dems to go more progressive, in effect pulling them and the country back to center, the same way they pulled the country further right. I tell you guys the people want progressive policies and new ideas and will vote for them. You tell me I'm wrong.

Now that they barely won, by going as little progressive as possible, they cannot pass the easiest slam dunks they'll ever have, and its because they have very unprogressive members in their ranks....and I'm still told that's not the problem.

Meanwhile, the progressives took seats and the house lead is 10... and there just so happens to be 10 new progressives over the past 3 years... fancy that. I mean maybe it is 11 now? Idk that one repub died.

[Jeezy911]

That would be a way worse option, yes. The only flipside is that said idiot would lose all of his power and he would be shunned and forced out of politics for the rest of his life.

Also, werent you the dude who claimed that Dotardito would win in a landslide (and he lost by ~7M votes)

Mail in ballots

[Verdugo]

Mail in ballots

I guess that not counting those was a bit of a miscalculation on your part.

[Zan15]

Allowing all people to vote

there fixed it for you.....

[Felya]

Mail in ballots

The obvious irony... If Trump listened to Biden and democrats, around this time last year. He would likely have won mail in ballots. All Trump had to do, is what Biden is doing now... with those stupid democrats telling him to do it last year...

Imagine instead of Biden passing a stimulus, it was Trump doing it. Democrats had 1200$ in the senate since May. Trump didn’t do it... then, he asks for 2k, after the election and without GOP support... once again, handing GA to democrats.

Democrats gave Trump the guide to win the election, it’s not their fault Biden is the one who used it.

[cubby]

I'm telling you it is not a victory because it so much less and late than it is needed and wanted and your response is...its a victory because its a victory.

Please explain how $1400 (i've been incorrectly calling it $1600) after a year of destruction is not meager. It is nothing and does no real help at all. Its like giving a homeless person $5 and thinking their problems are solved. Cool, they can get a little food for one day....big fucking deal.

Yes, I know its a systematic issue with the country. I'm saying what needs to be done to fix it and you're telling me, nope keep playing by the same rules that let the systematic problem we are complaining about, exist.

But it is a victory because it's a 100% more than the GOP would have done.

It's meager, but compared to previous provisions from the U.S. federal government it's big. Compared to other countries? Compared to what we really needed? It sucks - but that's more of a problem with the Boomer generation and the misunderstanding of welfare than anything else.

You're saying what needs to be done OVERALL to fix it, not with just the COVID bill. You're conflating two separate issues - what the COVID bill needs to cover and what is generally wrong with the United States as a whole. You're reading "keep playing by the same rules" into my responses, instead of seeing what they really are saying. The Democrats are objectively doing leaps and bounds more than the GOP, and you're calling that a loss - which is objectively wrong. It's a factual victory.

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Covid has cause economic damage that will haunt two entire generations. Shit should be addressed now when democrats could do it.

WE both know it won't pass otherwise. If it doesn't go in, it just won't go period.

Shit is being addressed. One major bill at a time. After COVID is infrastructure and then perhaps ACA bolstering.

Too bad our president's administration isn't too concerned with repealing the majority of trump's tax cuts.

You have NO basis regarding the veracity of that statement.

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Mail in ballots

Are you confused about how those work? See, they legally allow more people to vote safely. You probably hate them because the GOP tends to lose when more people vote, hence their desire to do away with them completely.

Give us a shout if you're still confused - we're here to help.

[Bodakane]

But it is a victory because it's a 100% more than the GOP would have done.

It's meager, but compared to previous provisions from the U.S. federal government it's big. Compared to other countries? Compared to what we really needed? It sucks - but that's more of a problem with the Boomer generation and the misunderstanding of welfare than anything else.

You're saying what needs to be done OVERALL to fix it, not with just the COVID bill. You're conflating two separate issues - what the COVID bill needs to cover and what is generally wrong with the United States as a whole. You're reading "keep playing by the same rules" into my responses, instead of seeing what they really are saying. The Democrats are objectively doing leaps and bounds more than the GOP, and you're calling that a loss - which is objectively wrong. It's a factual victory.

I'm not conflating anything.

I'm pointing out that the mentality that you and others have with this nothing Covid stimulus, is the problem. The mentality that this is a victory is the same mentality that has let us get to this point, because that mentality is what predators like McConnell feast on. I mean, jesus christ, your argument for calling this a victory would be the same if the stimulus gave everyone $1. I challenge you to really think about that.

Your (read: you and other establishment dems) obsession with what the right does and doesn't do, is insane. They suck. They're evil. Ok, great...now what? Let's govern regardless of what they will or won't do. We cannot do that though, because your* mentality is keeping the Dems from truly embracing real change in the form of progressives. Imagine where we'd be if Stacey Abrams thought like you* did. Now, imagine where we'd be if the Dem establishment embraced her and AOC and Warren and Sanders....

[cubby]

I'm not conflating anything.

I'm pointing out that the mentality that you and others have with this nothing Covid stimulus, is the problem. The mentality that this is a victory is the same mentality that has let us get to this point, because that mentality is what predators like McConnell feast on. I mean, jesus christ, your argument for calling this a victory would be the same if the stimulus gave everyone $1. I challenge you to really think about that.

Your (read: you and other establishment dems) obsession with what the right does and doesn't do, is insane. They suck. They're evil. Ok, great...now what? Let's govern regardless of what they will or won't do. We cannot do that though, because your* mentality is keeping the Dems from truly embracing real change in the form of progressives. Imagine where we'd be if Stacey Abrams thought like you* did. Now, imagine where we'd be if the Dem establishment embraced her and AOC and Warren and Sanders....

But you are conflating issues - there is no other way to phrase it. You're conflating the COVID response bill with other problems the country faces en masse - like the minimum wage, M4A, and a more appropriate COVID response overall (i.e. monthly payments to all, etc). You may not realize it, or you may think they aren't separate issues, but they are. The Democrats are doing good work and passing good legislation within the confines of what's possible given our overall countries perspective on COVID and social services. The COVID bill has fantastic provisions for dozens of areas - stimulus check is just one small portion. I notice you continue to ignore the unemployment benefits extension - which is vital to millions of americans affected by the economic consequences of COVID.

The COVID bill is a victory - you, for some reason, don't want it to be because it disagrees with your internal narrative about the democrats somehow not doing enough, when they are the only ones doing anything right now.

Lol re obsession - it's called reality. We can't ignore the other side - do you even know how politics work? We barely have a majority in the Senate - we can't just wish away the fact that Manchin and Seline have to be factored into the bills that are brought up for passage. And if the GOP had ANY decent people on their side then the issue would be moot - but they don't, so we have to deal with it. Holy fuck Boda - the Democrats DID embrace Stacy. Where are you getting all this nonsense? Politics is a function of reality, and unlike you, we all have to play in the real world, where the Senate holds a stake in passing legislation, and we have to deal with it the best we can.

You hand-wave away the GOP as evil and then "so what" it, like they don't play a huge part of the reality we have to deal with. Here's my call out to you:

You think the Democrats are doing poorly - then YOU TELL US HOW TO DO IT RIGHT. Go on - give us your solution to the current situation. We'll wait.

[Edge-]

You think the Democrats are doing poorly - then YOU TELL US HOW TO DO IT RIGHT. Go on - give us your solution to the current situation. We'll wait.

Act like Republicans.

Go out with their ACTUAL wish-list of more progressive items, bully moderate Democrats into backing it, and then push it hard and blame Republicans for every single delay and issue with it. Then eventually ignore rules, fire parliamentarians if necessary, and ram that shit though like Republicans. And then take victory laps about how great YOU are for passing that, while deriding Republicans for being sticks in the mud and being the ones to keep peoples stimulus checks from them.

The only difference is that the legislation will largely be pretty popular, as more liberal/progressive policies and legislation is consistently pretty darned popular. Unlike, for example, the Republican tax cut, which I believe is the only tax cut in US history to not have a majority favorable rating?

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/poll...7-tax-law.aspx

[postman1782]

Yea remember when Trump said:
"integrating schools will create "a racial jungle"
"You aint black if you vote republican"
“You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”
“Unlike the African-American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly diverse attitudes about different things.”
“In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

Oh those were all Biden Quotes, sorry.

And yet, I can show you 40+ fucking years of racism from Trump that you will ignore. With HUNDREDS of accounts from hundreds of witnesses, including him losing a lot of court cases for racism.

[cubby]

Act like Republicans.

Go out with their ACTUAL wish-list of more progressive items, bully moderate Democrats into backing it, and then push it hard and blame Republicans for every single delay and issue with it. Then eventually ignore rules, fire parliamentarians if necessary, and ram that shit though like Republicans. And then take victory laps about how great YOU are for passing that, while deriding Republicans for being sticks in the mud and being the ones to keep peoples stimulus checks from them.

The only difference is that the legislation will largely be pretty popular, as more liberal/progressive policies and legislation is consistently pretty darned popular. Unlike, for example, the Republican tax cut, which I believe is the only tax cut in US history to not have a majority favorable rating?

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/poll...7-tax-law.aspx

Sounds like a good plan to me.
(of course, i wasn't asking you...but that's for another conversation )

But that also brings us back to the issue of the tight majority of the Senate.

[Benggaul]

The Senate just approved Miguel Cardona as education secretary and...I admit I don't know very much about him. From what I've read about his experience and history he seems like a pretty good pick and he said during his confirmation hearing that he'd like to use the tools of the office to provide relief to Student Loan borrowers, so it's a step in the right direction at least. Of course, everything looks like a step up compared to DeVos, but so far what I've learned makes me think he'd be a good pick in any other circumstances as well.

[Thepersona]

Mail in ballots

So... He lost because he lost? That's a tautology...

[postman1782]

Mail in ballots

And your point? Are you going to push the lie that they were fraudulent? Because I need another good laugh at your expense and your gullibility.

[Bodakane]

But you are conflating issues - there is no other way to phrase it. You're conflating the COVID response bill with other problems the country faces en masse - like the minimum wage, M4A, and a more appropriate COVID response overall (i.e. monthly payments to all, etc). You may not realize it, or you may think they aren't separate issues, but they are. The Democrats are doing good work and passing good legislation within the confines of what's possible given our overall countries perspective on COVID and social services. The COVID bill has fantastic provisions for dozens of areas - stimulus check is just one small portion. I notice you continue to ignore the unemployment benefits extension - which is vital to millions of americans affected by the economic consequences of COVID.

The COVID bill is a victory - you, for some reason, don't want it to be because it disagrees with your internal narrative about the democrats somehow not doing enough, when they are the only ones doing anything right now.

Lol re obsession - it's called reality. We can't ignore the other side - do you even know how politics work? We barely have a majority in the Senate - we can't just wish away the fact that Manchin and Seline have to be factored into the bills that are brought up for passage. And if the GOP had ANY decent people on their side then the issue would be moot - but they don't, so we have to deal with it. Holy fuck Boda - the Democrats DID embrace Stacy. Where are you getting all this nonsense? Politics is a function of reality, and unlike you, we all have to play in the real world, where the Senate holds a stake in passing legislation, and we have to deal with it the best we can.

You hand-wave away the GOP as evil and then "so what" it, like they don't play a huge part of the reality we have to deal with. Here's my call out to you:

You think the Democrats are doing poorly - then YOU TELL US HOW TO DO IT RIGHT. Go on - give us your solution to the current situation. We'll wait.

You cannot be this obtuse.

Pointing out that the mentality you're using now with the bullshit Covid bill is the same mentality that has given people like McConnell free reign to be unrepentant assholes is not conflating.

It is not a victory. It is too little and too late to do anything important. Once again, the precise argument you gave for it to be a victory could be used if it was only giving 1 fucking a dollar a person. I will challenge you again, to think that through.

My fucking god.....yes I know we have a tiny majority. Our majority is tiny BECAUSE of your* weak ass strategy that I was telling you was weak. I told you how to avoid a tiny majority, you told me I was wrong and now I'm telling you this tiny majority isn't going to make real change and you tell me of course they cannot...they're too tiny.

I've told you how to solve the problem...go progressive for real. Stop acting like progressives can't win. Everyone wants actual progressive policies. You keep screaming that progressives can't win, then scream we need to put in moderates to beat the Repubs. And now you're telling me we cannot even get moderate ;legislation passed because there's not enough liberals. Its fucking batshit.

Stacey didn't put up moderate Dems, she put up progressives and won....in fucking Georgia. The dems didn't help her until the election went into a run off and it was the only chance to get this slim majority you're so proud of (a majority that can't even pass legislation the whole country wants). Across the nation, down ballot progressive policies passed. There are no bigger names in the party than Sanders, AOC, Warren, Beto, etc and yet you still scream the same stupid mantra.

It never fucking ends.

[Jeezy911]

And yet, I can show you 40+ fucking years of racism from Trump that you will ignore. With HUNDREDS of accounts from hundreds of witnesses, including him losing a lot of court cases for racism.

And yet you don't post one specific example. Amazing job.

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So... He lost because he lost? That's a tautology...

Yes they changed the rules and he lost. Joe Biden is the most popular politician of all time by about 20%

[cubby]

You cannot be this obtuse.

Pointing out that the mentality you're using now with the bullshit Covid bill is the same mentality that has given people like McConnell free reign to be unrepentant assholes is not conflating.

It is not a victory. It is too little and too late to do anything important. Once again, the precise argument you gave for it to be a victory could be used if it was only giving 1 fucking a dollar a person. I will challenge you again, to think that through.

My fucking god.....yes I know we have a tiny majority. Our majority is tiny BECAUSE of your* weak ass strategy that I was telling you was weak. I told you how to avoid a tiny majority, you told me I was wrong and now I'm telling you this tiny majority isn't going to make real change and you tell me of course they cannot...they're too tiny.

I've told you how to solve the problem...go progressive for real. Stop acting like progressives can't win. Everyone wants actual progressive policies. You keep screaming that progressives can't win, then scream we need to put in moderates to beat the Repubs. And now you're telling me we cannot even get moderate ;legislation passed because there's not enough liberals. Its fucking batshit.

Stacey didn't put up moderate Dems, she put up progressives and won....in fucking Georgia. The dems didn't help her until the election went into a run off and it was the only chance to get this slim majority you're so proud of (a majority that can't even pass legislation the whole country wants). Across the nation, down ballot progressive policies passed. There are no bigger names in the party than Sanders, AOC, Warren, Beto, etc and yet you still scream the same stupid mantra.

It never fucking ends.

And you're still wrong, at a FUNDAMENTAL level - how can you be this obtuse? The Georgia democrats weren't progressives:
‘Georgia Is Not New York’: Progressives Adapt Efforts for Senate Runoffs
The two Democrats running in Georgia don’t share the far-reaching policy goals of their party’s left flank, but progressives are still trying to help them — with modified messages.
Since we've proven your premise is wrong, then your entire argument is wrong. Come back with something new.

It never fucking ends. (am I doing that right?)

The COVID relief bill currently in the Senate is a victory - NOT because it's more than $0 - but because it addresses many problems we're facing right now. Could it be more? Of course - but what bill couldn't?

[Bodakane]

And you're still wrong, at a FUNDAMENTAL level - how can you be this obtuse? The Georgia democrats weren't progressives:
‘Georgia Is Not New York’: Progressives Adapt Efforts for Senate Runoffs
The two Democrats running in Georgia don’t share the far-reaching policy goals of their party’s left flank, but progressives are still trying to help them — with modified messages.
Since we've proven your premise is wrong, then your entire argument is wrong. Come back with something new.

It never fucking ends with you. (am I doing that right?)

lol, In the opinion piece you posted, the reason they give for saying they weren't;t progressive is because they didn't sign off on the New Green Deal.

But anyway, $1400 one time, a year after the pandemic kicked into overdrive. HUGE FUCKING VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The world is ok again!!!!!!!!!!! $400 more than Trump did!!!!!!!!!! OMG, liberals are winning so hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[postman1782]

And yet you don't post one specific example. Amazing job.

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Yes they changed the rules and he lost. Joe Biden is the most popular politician of all time by about 20%

You want me to? Because I can.

I will give you 5 off the top of my head as to why Trump is absolutely fucking racist. From before his presidency where he got even more racist.

1. He was sued, and lost, TWICE, by the Nixon DoJ for not renting to black people.
2. He was sued because he wouldn't keep minority dealers and waitresses on his casino floors because of a racist mob boss that spent a lot of money in his casino. He lost.
3. Central Park 5. He took a full page ad out in 1989 calling for the death penalty for them, problem was, they weren't guilty. In 2002, they were cleared of wrongdoing by DNA evidence. In 2015 on his racist campaign trail, Trump said they were still guilty, even though all evidence shows they didn't do it.
4. He was accused of "TEXTBOOK RACISM" by then speaker of the house Paul Ryan for his comments about Judge Curiel, saying he couldn't rule fairly about the Trump University case, because Trump was going to build his monument to white nationalism, his shitty wall.
5. And finally, and the worst one, FUCKING BIRTHERISM. He kept it going for 5 long fucking years after Obama showed both his short and long form birth certificates, while telling his racist followers like you, that he had evidence against Obama being born here.


Anything else you want to ignore? Because I can probably find my old list.

[beanman12345]

Are you confused about how those work? See, they legally allow more people to vote safely. You probably hate them because the GOP tends to lose when more people vote, hence their desire to do away with them completely.

Give us a shout if you're still confused - we're here to help.

The funny thing, is how successful the republican party had been prior to 2020 in large part due to mail in voting. Leave it to a party full of idiots to demonize something that's historically worked extremely well for them.