1. #4681
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No one's arguing for this. Stop strawmanning.
    You clearly did imply that in a post from which we started.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Because as we all know, people don't consume anything until they become a citizen and native born children automatically come with a full savings account. /s Insisting that X kind of population growth is fine but Y is not when the only thing really distinguishing the two is that X is primarily Anglophone and melanin deficient continues to be logically inconsistent and a massive dogwhistle.
    "Non-citizen consumption in US economy" is fairly usual type of dogwhistling.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-03-01 at 06:27 PM.

  2. #4682
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Do you think Manchin cares about re-election? He is obviously on GOP payroll.
    But he still has that beautiful (D) next to his name, which right now, is the only reason we have the majority.

  3. #4683
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But he still has that beautiful (D) next to his name, which right now, is the only reason we have the majority.
    Its also why its easy for him to sabotage any (D) effort.

  4. #4684
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yes, actually. That's why he's doing this shit. It's why he shot the lawsuit against the ACA in an ad. He's always been a more conservative Democrat because that's what gets him elected. It's why we see him hang out with both pro-choice and anti-choice folks during a campaign.

    If he wanted to be a Republican he could make the flip like Jeff Van Drew, and he would have been welcomed with cheers and applause.
    But he can't, because he'd be primary'd (sp?) out immediately. He is certainly the conservative democrat, and both sides have their fringe members, going both directions. We're just happy with the (D) right now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Its also why its easy for him to sabotage any (D) effort.
    Sure, as it would be for any one (D) right now. We have to keep them happy for the next two years, and if that means we lose some programs, well, that's politics. We get all the committee chairs, we get investigatory rights, we get everything, in part because of him.

  5. #4685
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    30,920
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    How does that lead you to believe a 15 wage will happen? Things aren’t that different.
    It doesn't. I wasn't answering that question. But for the record, I think the states are taking that issue up because they know nothing's happening federal. It's not ideal, but it'll do.

  6. #4686
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But he still has that beautiful (D) next to his name, which right now, is the only reason we have the majority.
    It can be argued that the Democrats don't really have the majority since a lot of their efforts are being blocked by the likes of Manchin and Sinema. When it comes to some issues they'll vote along with the Dems, sure, but then so would Romney and maybe Collins/Murkowsky. This is where being the "Big Tent" party is a liability. The GOP could get away with a slim majority because every single one of them--even Romney who voted to convict Trump--vote right down party lines on the big-ticket items like this, because they all ultimately aren't representative of a wide variety of the people, just the interests of rich, white people.

  7. #4687
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    It can be argued that the Democrats don't really have the majority since a lot of their efforts are being blocked by the likes of Manchin and Sinema. When it comes to some issues they'll vote along with the Dems, sure, but then so would Romney and maybe Collins/Murkowsky. This is where being the "Big Tent" party is a liability. The GOP could get away with a slim majority because every single one of them--even Romney who voted to convict Trump--vote right down party lines on the big-ticket items like this, because they all ultimately aren't representative of a wide variety of the people, just the interests of rich, white people.
    It can, of course - anything can be argued. But we've seen sown GOP discontent even with a larger majority than the Dem's have right now - the ACA Repeal effort died because three GOP Senator's weren't moral cowards.

    I hear what you're saying, but it's always been like this, especially when the margins are slim-to-non-existent. I'm not sure why the big-tent party is a liability though. What do you mean by that?

  8. #4688
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    It doesn't. I wasn't answering that question. But for the record, I think the states are taking that issue up because they know nothing's happening federal. It's not ideal, but it'll do.
    Yep, just like with marijuana legalization efforts the states are leading the way.

  9. #4689
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But he can't, because he'd be primary'd (sp?) out immediately. He is certainly the conservative democrat, and both sides have their fringe members, going both directions. We're just happy with the (D) right now.

    Sure, as it would be for any one (D) right now. We have to keep them happy for the next two years, and if that means we lose some programs, well, that's politics. We get all the committee chairs, we get investigatory rights, we get everything, in part because of him.

    I wonder if people remember that Our Revolution and Justice Democrats already tried to primary Manchin in 2018.

    It was a disaster, so it's no surprise they memory holed it. Along with Swearingen, they also backed former and current Trump supporter Ojeda because he said populist things. They also pitted Manchin against their candidates supporting $15. In hindsight, that might have back fired ...

    And before you say "rigged" or the "Dem establishment", Swearingen also lost to Caputo in the 2020 general election.


    I dare say, the Left has a messaging problems in districts that are not already D 40+. HOw do they get over this hurdle?

  10. #4690
    @cubby primaried would be the spelling. Not sure WV would go for a primary challenger just because he changed party affiliation.

  11. #4691
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    It Was Capitalism All Along
    Posts
    53,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "Non-citizen consumption in US economy" is fairly usual type of dogwhistling.
    Lol, what? I was disputing Theo's assertion that immigrants don't grow the economy. Nor is it a 'usual' dogwhistle of any sort; it's you strawmanning, as usual.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Sure, as it would be for any one (D) right now. We have to keep them happy for the next two years, and if that means we lose some programs, well, that's politics. We get all the committee chairs, we get investigatory rights, we get everything, in part because of him.
    And you will likely lose it in 2022, in part because of him, and Republicans will have absolutely no compunctions about nuking the filibuster next time it's opportune for them, enabling them to the machine of federal elections and ensure Democrats will never win a majority in government for at least another generation.

    Remind me what your endgame is, exactly?
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-03-01 at 06:55 PM.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  12. #4692
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I'm not sure why the big-tent party is a liability though. What do you mean by that?
    Because it means it's not just progressive voices being heard; it's also people like Manchin who enjoys straddling the fence and won't get on board for things like the 15$ minimum wage. It means the entire party will almost never unite behind issues like that because the spectrum of opinions is much broader than it is in the GOP, for example. Do the GOP sometimes fracture? Sure. But 99% of the time they will ALL vote for their agenda (or against Dems). The GOP doesn't have to "court liberal Republicans" the way the Dems have to court more conservative Democrats.

    And this is why I've been saying for ages that the GOP as a party needs to be utterly destroyed, so that the Democrats can safely split the way they really need to between "Progressives" and "Moderates" to have meaningful debates and discussions over policy yet still ensure that SOME progress is made instead of constantly fighting just to hold onto the status quo as opposed to being dragged back to even darker times.

  13. #4693
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    @cubby primaried would be the spelling. Not sure WV would go for a primary challenger just because he changed party affiliation.
    Thanks - spelling is my kryptonite.

    WV might not, but the GOP would - especially Trump's GOP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    I wonder if people remember that Our Revolution and Justice Democrats already tried to primary Manchin in 2018.

    It was a disaster, so it's no surprise they memory holed it. Along with Swearingen, they also backed former and current Trump supporter Ojeda because he said populist things. They also pitted Manchin against their candidates supporting $15. In hindsight, that might have back fired ...

    And before you say "rigged" or the "Dem establishment", Swearingen also lost to Caputo in the 2020 general election.


    I dare say, the Left has a messaging problems in districts that are not already D 40+. HOw do they get over this hurdle?
    The Dems tried to primary Manchin in 2018? Whoops.

    The Democrats certainly have a messaging problem. We're seeing that in multiple states were vulnerable GOP Senators won in 2020 to strong Dem candidates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And you will likely lose it in 2022, in part because of him, and Republicans will have absolutely no compunctions about nuking the filibuster next time it's opportune for them, enabling them to the machine of federal elections and ensure Democrats will never win a majority in government for at least another generation.

    Remind me what your endgame is, exactly?
    2022 will be interesting. The Dems will be in a perfect position to win seats. Not sure that the GOP will nuke the filibuster...they didn't when they could have before.

    End game? Making the country better.

  14. #4694
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Thanks - spelling is my kryptonite.

    WV might not, but the GOP would - especially Trump's GOP.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The Dems tried to primary Manchin in 2018? Whoops.

    The Democrats certainly have a messaging problem. We're seeing that in multiple states were vulnerable GOP Senators won in 2020 to strong Dem candidates.

    - - - Updated - - -



    2022 will be interesting. The Dems will be in a perfect position to win seats. Not sure that the GOP will nuke the filibuster...they didn't when they could have before.

    End game? Making the country better.
    How and why do you think the Dems will be in perfect position to win seats??!?!?!?

    The Repub are already redoubling efforts to suppress voting. The Dems are so fucking neutered they cannot even pass a feeble stimulus and neutered minimum wage increase......

    When do you change your strategy? It took 500K deaths for your guy to win, and now that the Dems power, they still cannot get effective legislation passed all the while the Repubs are still rigging the game and falling in line behind Trump and still you cling to the same strategies and unearned optimism.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  15. #4695
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Because it means it's not just progressive voices being heard; it's also people like Manchin who enjoys straddling the fence and won't get on board for things like the 15$ minimum wage. It means the entire party will almost never unite behind issues like that because the spectrum of opinions is much broader than it is in the GOP, for example. Do the GOP sometimes fracture? Sure. But 99% of the time they will ALL vote for their agenda (or against Dems). The GOP doesn't have to "court liberal Republicans" the way the Dems have to court more conservative Democrats.

    And this is why I've been saying for ages that the GOP as a party needs to be utterly destroyed, so that the Democrats can safely split the way they really need to between "Progressives" and "Moderates" to have meaningful debates and discussions over policy yet still ensure that SOME progress is made instead of constantly fighting just to hold onto the status quo as opposed to being dragged back to even darker times.
    But it also means that those non-progressive Democrats are heard - and we have to remember that the Democratic Party includes those people that Manchin represents. I agree with you overall, though, that the GOP has it much easier - in almost every category of legislation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    How and why do you think the Dems will be in perfect position to win seats??!?!?!?

    The Repub are already redoubling efforts to suppress voting. The Dems are so fucking neutered they cannot even pass a feeble stimulus and neutered minimum wage increase......

    When do you change your strategy? It took 500K deaths for your guy to win, and now that the Dems power, they still cannot get effective legislation passed all the while the Repubs are still rigging the game and falling in line behind Trump and still you cling to the same strategies and unearned optimism.
    Because the economy will be back in full swing, COVID will [hopefully] be "gone" vis a vis vaccines, and the Democrats will have 3+ major pieces of legislation passed and implemented.

    But messaging will be key.

    The vote suppression is very worrisome - but that's not part of the Dems being in perfect position, if that makes sense.

    The Dems are already looking at their 2020 strategy, specifically how they lost House and didn't gain as many Senate seats while still kicking the shit out of Trump.

    Your response that I bolded - what do you mean by that? COVID relief bill is on it's way to Senate. It's still early.

  16. #4696
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But it also means that those non-progressive Democrats are heard - and we have to remember that the Democratic Party includes those people that Manchin represents. I agree with you overall, though, that the GOP has it much easier - in almost every category of legislation.
    Cool, thanks for repeating back to me exactly what I said...? Good grief.

  17. #4697
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Cool, thanks for repeating back to me exactly what I said...? Good grief.
    I'm going to give you a pass on that because of what you're going through and generally how good a poster you are overall. But when someone agrees with you because you've made a good point, throwing it back in their face usually isn't the best course of action.

  18. #4698
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Because the economy will be back in full swing, COVID will [hopefully] be "gone" vis a vis vaccines, and the Democrats will have 3+ major pieces of legislation passed and implemented.

    But messaging will be key.

    The vote suppression is very worrisome - but that's not part of the Dems being in perfect position, if that makes sense.

    The Dems are already looking at their 2020 strategy, specifically how they lost House and didn't gain as many Senate seats while still kicking the shit out of Trump.

    Your response that I bolded - what do you mean by that? COVID relief bill is on it's way to Senate. It's still early.
    Its less than is needed. Its later than is needed. And it cannot be passed with an equally less than needed and later than needed legislation that most of America wants in the minimum wage hike.

    The building is on fire and you want to celebrate the Dems bringing a glass of water.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  19. #4699
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Its less than is needed. Its later than is needed. And it cannot be passed with an equally less than needed and later than needed legislation that most of America wants in the minimum wage hike.

    The building is on fire and you want to celebrate the Dems bringing a glass of water.
    It's a compromise. That's debatable. Compromise happens.

    Poor analogy. You want to bring on the criticism machine before the race has really even started.

    Edit: really, when you think about it, the minimum wage hike isn't necessary for COVID relief. I want it to happen, and it should, and it's far overdue - but even if it passed tomorrow it wouldn't be implemented until 2022 at the earliest.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-03-01 at 08:27 PM.

  20. #4700
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    It's a compromise. That's debatable. Compromise happens.

    Poor analogy. You want to bring on the criticism machine before the race has really even started.
    This is what I've been trying to get through to you for years now......

    The dems walked in with the compromise, asking for $1600 one time payment and a $15 minimum wage hike. They should have walked in with $500 monthly stimulus for 6 months and a $20 minimum wage hike. But since they follow the same weak and bullshit strategy they always do, we are getting a meager $1600 one time payment and nothing else.

    And you think this is a victory.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •