1. #4941
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The GOP tried to gut Obamacare during reconciliation and failed because of McDonaugh's "opinions".
    Sorta kinda? I'm trying to find out if they were even removed, but McDonaugh only "rejected" a few amendments from the bill. It failed a procedural vote in the Senate anyways so it's hardly as if it failed because of her. It failed because it was a joke that not even Republicans could agree to, not even their "skinny repeal".

  2. #4942
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The same way every other law worked state/federal. Those states with less, erm, "conservative" thinking applied their own rules until the federal government changed their mind.

    Again, I'm not defending these policies, only pointing out that they were legal because they had popular support. Until they didn't. Then they weren't legal anymore.

    You don't have to like either of those at-the-time legal situations. I'm glad you don't have to live in them. Hopefully the people with Republican Senators/Representatives who feel the minimum wage should increase will make their opinion known. If they feel other issues outweigh that, such as pro-life, they won't. That's why the minimum wage map and the who-voted-for-Biden map look so similar.

    It's not ideal. It's not even "okay" from a moral standpoint. But I'm not going to charge the Capitol with torches and pitchforks, because that's not how democracy works. I'll just continue to chain-vote Democrat and attend rallies on the topic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well yeah...that's how tautologies work.
    How about instead of fighting for more status quo blah blah you vote democrats still... but also freely don't support stupid shit we all know is stupid?

    I voted up and down democrat, doesn't stop me from being critical of warmongering bullshit Biden is doing just because I voted Biden/Harris.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  3. #4943
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    she is not an econmist.

    and no a virtuous person would not listen to the opinion of a skill lawyer on funding issues A SKILL ECONOMIST should be sought out. The fuck type of argument are you making right now?
    That her position has literally nothing to do with making economic rulings. Her position is about making procedural rulings, and being a lawyer lends itself to interpretations of the rules.

  4. #4944
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Half are going to vote for making their lives better.

    The other half are going to vote for making the lives of some people worse even at their own expense.

    Both halves will wield the cudgel of decorum against the other.
    History says otherwise democrats boil the frog don't rock the boat approach is how we got Trump.

  5. #4945
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    That her position has literally nothing to do with making economic rulings. Her position is about making procedural rulings, and being a lawyer lends itself to interpretations of the rules.
    The rule itself notes that it doesn't actually stop the provision from being included. Her advice is to not include it.

    Advice easily overruled by Kamala which then means it would need 60 votes in order to be taken out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  6. #4946
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Biden illegally bombing Iranians in syria which is straight up and down illegal... bad....
    Is it illegal?

    What does it have to do with talking about the minimum wage increase?

  7. #4947
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is it illegal?

    What does it have to do with talking about the minimum wage increase?
    Not illegal but not following procedures, I think he is saying Biden throws away these things when it suits him.

  8. #4948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Do you think the average American cares about congressional procedure or results?
    I'm sure they care about results. Unfortunately for them, that's not how it works. Otherwise we would have passed the "Nobody Pays Taxes But Everyone Still Gets Federal Services Act of 1994".

    For every minimum wage bill shoved into a COVID relief bill that's blocked, there's a tax cut for the rich that's restricted. Re-read the tax cut for the rich discussion and imagine what would happen, if the Republicans weren't limited by how much they could have added to the deficit/debt. As a handout to the rich, it's bad enough as it is. The parliamentarian's binding opinion stopped it from being worse.

    The average American probably doesn't care too much about the proper treatment of a mass murderer, but he still gets a trial. We don't just take an accused person out back and shoot them, even if that hs 70% popular support.

  9. #4949
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I'm sure if you ask folks
    That's the rub, who are we asking? The past four years has shown a distinct disconnect between what "online people want" and what "voters want."

    2020 should that loud people on podcasts and twitter are like 0.2% of the population? The Discourse keeps going through, and never learning from it.
    Probably because some politicians and allied media keep ignoring this lesson. Because it would cost the Likes or Patreon bucks.


    Sure $15 polls well, but most voters simply want Covid Relief more. Bungle or delaying of Covid Relief has higher political costs than passing $15 at the moment.

    "I know people" is just a tell for a bluff.

  10. #4950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    don't support stupid shit we all know is stupid?
    If you're asking if I support raising the minimum wage, I do.

    If you're asking if I support throwing away long-held federal rules I don't like because they stop a result I want, I don't. If the rules don't apply to everyone, they're not rules.

    I look forward to seeing other ways the minimum wage issue is addressed. Shoving into a COVID relief bill simply doesn't seem to be working.

  11. #4951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is it illegal?

    What does it have to do with talking about the minimum wage increase?
    This is still a biden/harris thread. And i was noting a person can do good and bad. and this was a biden/harris administration bombing of Syria.

    Goes against the proper procedure. International law, it is illegal. For America specifically, the president needed authorisation for bombing Syria. Obama tried the same thing btw and he never got authorisation:

    Biden and Vice-President Kamala Harris, like Psaki, are on the record questioning the legal basis of airstrikes that former president Donald Trump ordered in 2017 and 2019. Critics right and left jumped on these statements to accuse the administration of hypocrisy.

    Several Democratic members of Congress, including senators Tim Kaine and Chris Murphy and Representative Ro Khanna, criticized the airstrikes and demanded that Congress be briefed on the matter. “Congress should hold this administration to the same standard it did prior administrations, and require clear legal justifications for military action, especially inside theaters like Syria, where Congress has not explicitly authorized any American military action,” Murphy stated. As these strikes were retaliatory and not in response to any imminent threat, Murphy argued, they were not legal without specific congressional authorization.

    Biden is now the third president to order attacks in Syria without congressional approval since the start of that country’s civil war almost exactly a decade ago. Former president Barack Obama sought Congress’s permission to intervene and punish Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad for the use of chemical weapons against civilians in 2013, but that resolution never got a vote.
    This is the issue.

    In regards to Syria... here is Jen Pskai on the issue in 2017 on similar acts taken by Trump:

    Also what is the legal authority for strikes? Assad is a brutal dictator. But Syria is a sovereign country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  12. #4952
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    That's the rub, who are we asking? The past four years has shown a distinct disconnect between what "online people want" and what "voters want."
    In this case, pretty much anyone. It's one of those random roles in the government nobody even knows exists. That's not to say it SHOULDN'T exist, but to say that it's not exactly the most noteworthy position around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    2020 should that loud people on podcasts and twitter are like 0.2% of the population? The Discourse keeps going through, and never learning from it.
    Probably because some politicians and allied media keep ignoring this lesson. Because it would cost the Likes or Patreon bucks.
    Considering I avoid political twitter (and twitter in general) and most political podcasts like the bloody plague, I haven't the foggiest what they're even talking about right now. I do my best to avoid the "very online" people as they seem to have little tethering them back to meatspace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Sure $15 polls well, but most voters simply want Covid Relief more. Bungle or delaying of Covid Relief has higher political costs than passing $15 at the moment.
    Sure, that's a possibility. Blame Republicans, then. How many Republicans are voting on this relief bill anyways? House vote showed 212 "No" votes from Republicans, which is all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    "I know people" is just a tell for a bluff.
    Not really. It's like asking people if they knew that the Speaker had to invite POTUS to give the SOTU. Unless you're a West Wing fan and remembered that episode, you probably had no clue. Which is backed up by the endless media coverage of that factoid since it's one of the things in the massive volume of, "Shit nobody knows but is a part of how the government works".

  13. #4953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    That's the rub, who are we asking? The past four years has shown a distinct disconnect between what "online people want" and what "voters want."

    2020 should that loud people on podcasts and twitter are like 0.2% of the population? The Discourse keeps going through, and never learning from it.
    Probably because some politicians and allied media keep ignoring this lesson. Because it would cost the Likes or Patreon bucks.


    Sure $15 polls well, but most voters simply want Covid Relief more. Bungle or delaying of Covid Relief has higher political costs than passing $15 at the moment.

    "I know people" is just a tell for a bluff.
    You know we have a lot of polling on this and it is now popular with both sides... why are you even trying to argue this is just an online thing? The fuck is wrong with you? Everything to you is "online people!! very lefty online!!! evil left online!" can you cork the silly rhetoric for like idk... a minute?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  14. #4954
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    If the rules don't apply to everyone, they're not rules.
    So... they are not rules. Since GOP wipes their palid, wrinkly behind with them.


    You are aware that you are not facing just political oposition, but an actual threat to democratic process, right?

  15. #4955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    If you're asking if I support raising the minimum wage, I do.

    If you're asking if I support throwing away long-held federal rules I don't like because they stop a result I want, I don't. If the rules don't apply to everyone, they're not rules.

    I look forward to seeing other ways the minimum wage issue is addressed. Shoving into a COVID relief bill simply doesn't seem to be working.
    The rule leaves space for Kamala to say "it should be included" so tell me what rule is being thrown away when the rule is still being followed? Why do you want to listen to part of the rule and ignore the other half of the rule? Why do you want to ignore the advisory opinion noting the Byrd rule, the rule itself which doesn't prohibit the inclusion of the provision in question?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  16. #4956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So... they are not rules. Since GOP wipes their palid, wrinkly behind with them.
    In a lot of cases, yes. But the parliamentarian issue we're talking about right now isn't one of them, as shown during the tax cut for the rich situation.

  17. #4957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So... they are not rules. Since GOP wipes their palid, wrinkly behind with them.


    You are aware that you are not facing just political oposition, but an actual threat to democratic process, right?
    Well we have to following 60% of the rule and ignore the 30% of the rule that states the rule can be overruled.

    Oh and we must also ignore the 10% of the rule that notes within the very rule itself that the provision can be included

    I mean just ignore all that and to Breccia norms of following rules are broken!!
    Never mind the rule stays the provision can be included, never mind the rule says that the VP can either take or ignore the opinion...those rules don't matter....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  18. #4958
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    This is still a biden/harris thread. And i was noting a person can do good and bad. and this was a biden/harris administration bombing of Syria.

    Goes against the proper procedure. International law, it is illegal. For America specifically, the president needed authorisation for bombing Syria. Obama tried the same thing btw and he never got authorisation:



    This is the issue.

    In regards to Syria... here is Jen Pskai on the issue in 2017 on similar acts taken by Trump:
    Hey, the Democrats can always rescind the AUMF, which I believe Biden used as justification. As Trump did before him. And Obama before him. And Bush Jr. before him.

    Again, the problem seems to be that Congress doesn't want to have to be held accountable for military actions and gave that broad authority to the executive branch.

  19. #4959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    In a lot of cases, yes. But the parliamentarian issue we're talking about right now isn't one of them, as shown during the tax cut for the rich situation.
    1. byrd rule doesn't prohibit inclusion
    2. the rule allows for the VP to either take or ignore the advice

    In fact... ignoring the rule and keeping it in the bill is 100% in line with what the rules outline so save the argument about "oh but the rules!" no one gives a shit about them you know why? Because they're fucking poor and dying and homeless or working 3 jobs to piss it all away on bills.

    you're treating this shit like a fucking thought experiment and not real life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  20. #4960
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    it's still a poor question because what is saved by ensuring poverty wages? Tell me can a person do good and bad things? I mean for instance Biden saying he supports unions... good...

    Biden illegally bombing Iranians in syria which is straight up and down illegal... bad....

    the question you're looking for

    "would a virtuous person use legal reasons when confronted with another legal argument, to make an advisory opinion"

    In that case we already know what the will of the people is... that was to have aca and expand it even...
    The point is you support unethical actions to work on something you deem moral.

    I look at this way. This is a lawyer who somehow survived the Trump years despite not giving them all they want. The Dems should've passed better crafted legislation because the other side at least somewhat respects her opinions.

    I generally expect better behaviour from politicians in general.

    Finally, because you keep on ignoring this, even if her opinion is over-ridden that is no guarantee of getting you want. The Dems would probably have to go nuclear which doesn't have the support of their caucus. There are 50 (or more) senators who will fight the minimum wage provision if they don't go nuclear which delays the rest of the bill. After all that you have to deal numerous state AG's who will sue because they don't believe in minimum wage in general and are wholly against the idea of a minority earning a living in particular. And those AG's will eventually make their way to a partisan supreme court and they will try to use this abolition of senate procedure to their advantage.

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