1. #4961
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    And the Dems tried to pass more relief with the GOP blocking it down to $600.
    Then did less than promised with democrats blocking it being more expansive.

  2. #4962
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I don't think it would be impossible to flip, but given that resources are finite there are other seats/states that are much more within the realm of "obtainable" and are therefore worth looking at first.
    Again, i just don't agree.

    Its not about the amount of effort, it is about the correct effort. We live in a country where marketers can create demand out of thin air with the right message.

    I don't know what the right message will be to get a place like West Virginia to flip, but I know for a fact saying, "fuck it, its impossible" isn't it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    I largely agree with this, but it's long game, and it means convincing people that throwing money and resources at a state Democrats will likely lose for several election cycles, if not more, is not a waste. The reason Georgia eventually went blue (for however long) is because people poured energy and resources into the state over the course of several elections--that builds political infrastructure, and obviously Stacey Abrams was a force of nature. I would love to see Manchin (and a few others) get the boot as soon as Democrats pick up a couple other states and then we don't need him at all. The next 2 years (and then all the years after that) are a straight uphill climb for Democrats. We should have been focused on state legislatures 4 decades ago--like Republicans were--but here we are.

    ETA: It's worth noting, though, that if they can pull this off, this is not terrible politics for Democrats:

    "Although Manchin on Sunday maintained that he won’t change his mind when it comes to his opposition against getting rid of the filibuster, he expressed that he is open to making it “a little bit more painful” to use.

    “Make him stand there and talk,” Manchin said on MSNBC’s “Meet the Press.” “I’m willing to look at any way we can. But I’m not willing to take away the involvement of the minority.”

    Manchin appeared to float the idea of bringing back something like the “talking filibuster,” where a member of the minority would have to take the Senate floor and speak at length in order to block a vote. Manchin seemed to lean into a framing that some Democratic activists have suggested for centrist Democrats — conveying that reforms to the filibuster are necessary to “save” it, rather than eliminating it."

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/c...filibuster-hr1
    Repubs went from Romney to Trump, in about 3 years. I don't see how there's a wider gulf between a Manchin and an actual liberal than that, for example.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2021-03-08 at 01:58 PM.
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  3. #4963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    No I am talking about the initial payments Trump did... nearly a year ago which compared to this bill were more expansive.
    Trump did what? Those payments were also watered down to let it pass GOP, then 1200 from democrats hanged since May, until after the election. There was no one other than democrats pushing for stimulus checks... but, got to give credit, where credit is due... With a single tweet, Trump changed the legacy of doing nothing, to getting us payments. I didn’t think this was possible...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Then did less than promised with democrats blocking it being more expansive.
    Yeah, they were dumb to promise 2k, should have promised 10k... since they were going to break their promise anyway. Did Munchin or any of those who voted no, actually campaign on 2k checks or was it only the people willing to sign all of them?



    Looks like he did exactly as he campaigned...

    Edit: Before anyone asks... what’s the difference between Manchin and a Republican? He voted for 1400, none of the republicans did the same.
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-08 at 02:19 PM.
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  4. #4964
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Trump did what? Those payments were also watered down to let it pass GOP, then 1200 from democrats hanged since May, until after the election. There was no one other than democrats pushing for stimulus checks... but, got to give credit, where credit is due... With a single tweet, Trump changed the legacy of doing nothing, to getting us payments. I didn’t think this was possible...

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    Yeah, they were dumb to promise 2k, should have promised 10k... since they were going to break their promise anyway. Did Munchin or any of those who voted no, actually campaign on 2k checks or was it only the people willing to sign all of them?

    [video=youtube_share;xIJORBRpOPM]https://youtu.be/xIJORBRpOPM[/ideo]

    Looks like he did exactly as he campaigned...

    Edit: Before anyone asks... what’s the difference between Manchin and a Republican? He voted for 1400, none of the republicans did the same.
    Yes that's all true, and so what is what I ask you. Playing the "politics game" do you think it matters? This is the point. The original bill being able to reach more is a problem, it doesn't matter that republicans blocked democrats because people dont' seem to care about that

    and where the fuck did you get the "they were dumb to promise 2k should have promised 10k"

    The fuckign problem is that democrats begin cutting back shit and then act like that was their plan all along. what retroactivity? Who said that? You have Democrats who campaigned for one thing, spoke at length about it, doing the very opposite thing once they are in power and control all three levels so yeah... it makes the democrats look like a dysfunctioning party incapable of not drifting to the right and not getting shit done because of it.

  5. #4965
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Again, i just don't agree.

    Its not about the amount of effort, it is about the correct effort. We live in a country where marketers can create demand out of thin air with the right message.

    I don't know what the right message will be to get a place like West Virginia to flip, but I know for a fact saying, "fuck it, its impossible" isn't it.
    You are reading this all wrong that's like saying you aren't getting a Lamborghini because you don't have a can do attitude. The party has limited resources as such it is impossible to be competitive in every state, could it happen if you put enough money into it ? yes but what's your case for doing so versus securing local and state positions in GA, AZ and TX? It's basic logic you go for what is most efficient and cost effective.

  6. #4966
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Yes that's all true, and so what is what I ask you. Playing the "politics game" do you think it matters?
    Him being voted in based on his politics and then acting, exactly as he promised... is not a political game. That is simply how far left his constituents are willing to go.

    and where the fuck did you get the "they were dumb to promise 2k should have promised 10k"
    Because if they knew 2k wasn’t going to happen and then be spanked over 600$... why not promise more? Why not play politics and say... Trump wants 2k? Well... we want 10k! Trump claimed he was going to bring forth the best healthcare ever, then did nothing, but destroying the existing. Why can’t democrats have as big a lies as Trump? Why 600$ and not go for more votes, then drop 8.6k?

    The fuckign problem is that democrats begin cutting back shit and then act like that was their plan all along. what retroactivity? Who said that? You have Democrats who campaigned for one thing, spoke at length about it, doing the very opposite thing once they are in power and control all three levels so yeah... it makes the democrats look like a dysfunctioning party incapable of not drifting to the right and not getting shit done because of it.
    See... this is what I mean... on what planet or alternative reality, is the opposite of 2000... 1400? I like to think am better than avarage in math, but that make a no sense...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  7. #4967
    Old God Milchshake's Avatar
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    Apparently this bill is the most progressive piece of legislation in 2 generations.


    I dont even think FDR got this much in his first 40 days.

  8. #4968
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Him being voted in based on his politics and then acting, exactly as he promised... is not a political game. That is simply how far left his constituents are willing to go.



    Because if they knew 2k wasn’t going to happen and then be spanked over 600$... why not promise more? Why not play politics and say... Trump wants 2k? Well... we want 10k! Trump claimed he was going to bring forth the best healthcare ever, then did nothing, but destroying the existing. Why can’t democrats have as big a lies as Trump? Why 600$ and not go for more votes, then drop 8.6k?



    See... this is what I mean... on what planet or alternative reality, is the opposite of 2000... 1400? I like to think am better than avarage in math, but that make a no sense...
    Exactly as promised? Do explain where.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Apparently this bill is the most progressive piece of legislation in 2 generations.


    I dont even think FDR got this much in his first 40 days.
    Lol that's cute... should probably tell you more about the state of the country no?

  9. #4969
    Old God Milchshake's Avatar
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    It's a great bill. All wings of the US Democratic party should share credit for it.



    Those comments ... super salty.

  10. #4970
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    It's a great bill. All wings of the US Democratic party should share credit for it.

    Those comments ... super salty.
    Jimmy Dore says the Demonrats are just dragging their feet, tho.
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  11. #4971
    Old God Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Jimmy Dore says the Demonrats are just dragging their feet, tho.
    Same with Jimmy's career in comedy.

  12. #4972
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Sounds legit. He has a YouTube channel and everything!
    Imagine your whole schtick relies on demonizing Democrats as neo-libs and they pass a 2 trillion relief bill, and begin work on a sweeping voting reform bill within two months of gaining control of the legislative and executive branch (all without a single vote from Republicans)*. Sucks for them.

    *clearly, democrats should stop and consider why Republicans won't cast a vote for these things
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-03-08 at 03:57 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  13. #4973
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Are you just mad that this doesn’t align with your narrative?
    Exactly as promised he isn't doing... winding down the attacks on Yemen... bringing MBS under sanctions. Winding down our forever war. From the start of the minimum wage, was weak on it. Fought more for Tanden than he did higher wages.All this talk about how people matter and such to then speak to banks about the minimum wage...

    Do you believe Biden wanting to get rid of AUMF after unilaterally bombing suspected Iran back militias in Syria?

    To call this bill the most progressive thing and try to celebrate it after all this time is bogus... it is a bare minimum that's far less than what it should be. Our government argued for months while giving trillions in quantitative easing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    It's a great bill. All wings of the US Democratic party should share credit for it.

    [IMG]https://i.redd.it/agk331589il61.jpg[/IG]

    Those comments ... super salty.
    Is this child tax credit going to be monthly as was suggested? Vaccine distribution and vaccine production aren't progressive it's just... idk common sense? Relief for restaurants and small businesses also is just common sense given the state the country is in.

    It annoys me when people like you, pretend everything is progressive if it isn't 100% bad... that's not how that works.
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-03-08 at 04:15 PM.

  14. #4974
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    You are reading this all wrong that's like saying you aren't getting a Lamborghini because you don't have a can do attitude. The party has limited resources as such it is impossible to be competitive in every state, could it happen if you put enough money into it ? yes but what's your case for doing so versus securing local and state positions in GA, AZ and TX? It's basic logic you go for what is most efficient and cost effective.
    I'm not reading it wrong and your analogy is flawed.

    We aren't talking about purchasing a product that has a definable cost. We are talking about convincing people of something. That doesn't have a defined cost.

    I mean I keep saying this isn't resource issue but a will issue, and you keep telling me there's limited resources.

    It doesn't always cost ungodly amounts of resources to change people's minds.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  15. #4975
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Imagine your whole schtick relies on demonizing Democrats as neo-libs and they pass a 2 trillion relief bill, and begin work on a sweeping voting reform bill within two months of gaining control of the legislative and executive branch (all without a single vote from Republicans)*. Sucks for them.

    *clearly, democrats should stop and consider why Republicans won't cast a vote for these things
    Imagine thinking doing the bare minimum during a once in a century pandemic as groundbreaking progressiveness! The rest of the world would like a chat...

    In what ways are democrats not neo-liberal? Also talk about voting rights doesn't mean much when they won't remove the filibuster, and let's see... what remains of the voting rights act being they've talked about collaborating with Republicans on the bill which means... cuts.

  16. #4976
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Exactly as promised? Do explain where.
    The video from his campaign ad I linked above...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  17. #4977
    Old God Milchshake's Avatar
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    Also, people bragging they "got more money from Trump". Telling on themselves.



    Both Parties are not the Same, the Illustration.

  18. #4978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Also, people bragging they "got more money from Trump". Telling on themselves.

    Both Parties are not the Same, the Illustration.
    At least his delaying checks to put his name on them, was fake news...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  19. #4979
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Again, i just don't agree.

    Its not about the amount of effort, it is about the correct effort. We live in a country where marketers can create demand out of thin air with the right message.

    I don't know what the right message will be to get a place like West Virginia to flip, but I know for a fact saying, "fuck it, its impossible" isn't it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Repubs went from Romney to Trump, in about 3 years. I don't see how there's a wider gulf between a Manchin and an actual liberal than that, for example.
    Because most vote for Candidate (R) pretty much exclusively, which underscores that "values" and policy positions are largely irrelevant. It doesn't signify some broader philosophical shift in Republican voters. In any case, I think at this point we're largely disagreeing over how long it would take rather than whether it can be done--WV was blue not that long ago, so who knows.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  20. #4980
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm not reading it wrong and your analogy is flawed.

    We aren't talking about purchasing a product that has a definable cost. We are talking about convincing people of something. That doesn't have a defined cost.

    I mean I keep saying this isn't resource issue but a will issue, and you keep telling me there's limited resources.

    It doesn't always cost ungodly amounts of resources to change people's minds.
    You need to spend money to change people's minds. What other means do you know to change that many minds that doesn't involve money?

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