1. #4981
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Imagine thinking doing the bare minimum during a once in a century pandemic as groundbreaking progressiveness! The rest of the world would like a chat...

    In what ways are democrats not neo-liberal? Also talk about voting rights doesn't mean much when they won't remove the filibuster, and let's see... what remains of the voting rights act being they've talked about collaborating with Republicans on the bill which means... cuts.
    If you can't stop and appreciate that congress (just Democrats actually) pushed through a much needed bill that will actually help people instead of corporations, then I don't know what to tell you bud. It's not perfect but take your wins where you can.

    Also, explain to me in clear English how Democrats are neo-liberal. I'm convinced that you don't understand the history of the term, what it actually means, and how it relates to the social liberalism that most Democrats practice. If you're going to reduce all liberalism to neo-liberalism then just say so and save me the effort of having this conversation with you. I need a "America doesn't have a left-libertarian party" discussion like I need a hole in the head.
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-03-08 at 09:00 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  2. #4982
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    You need to spend money to change people's minds. What other means do you know to change that many minds that doesn't involve money?
    Sigh.

    OK, how much does it cost per person, then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    If you can't stop and appreciate that congress (just Democrats actually) pushed through a much needed bill that will actually help people instead of corporations, then I don't know what to tell you bud. It's not perfect, but take your wins where you can.

    Also, explain to me in clear English how Democrats are neo-liberal. I'm convinced that you don't understand the history of the term, what it actually means, and how it relates to the social liberalism that most Democrats practice. If you're going to reduce "all liberalism is neo-liberalism" then just say so and save me the effort of having this conversation with you. I need a "America doesn't have a left-libertarian party" discussion like I need a hole in the head.
    Wait, should people not express their dissatisfaction? Why is it so terrible to point out that the bill should and could have been even better, if not for a couple DINOs, gumming up the works?
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  3. #4983
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Wait, should people not express their dissatisfaction? Why is it so terrible to point out that the bill should and could have been even better, if not for a couple DINOs, gumming up the works?
    If you followed the conversation, you'd realize that's not what's happening. People like Jimmy Dore demonize an entire party and act like they're all sitting on their hands when it's a couple centrist "Democrats" that aren't playing ball.

    That's the point I was making.

    Of course the bill could have included more. There's plenty of shit they could have done to the bill to make it better. If you haven't noticed the United States political system is not ideal and needs a ton of work. However, the bill is still a net positive and it's worth acknowledging that they got it through in a timely fashion.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  4. #4984
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    If you followed the conversation, you'd realize that's not what's happening. People like Jimmy Dore demonize an entire party and act like they're all sitting on their hands when it's a couple centrist "Democrats" that aren't playing ball.

    That's the point I was making.

    Of course the bill could have included more. There's plenty of shit they could have done to the bill to make it better. If you haven't noticed the United States political system is not ideal and needs a ton of work. However, the bill is still a net positive and it's worth acknowledging that they got it through in a timely fashion.
    Cosplay Socialism only works if you ignore that 50 GOP senators exist. Also, that it only takes 42% of Americans to elect those 50 senators.

  5. #4985
    Wait, are we taking the, "Almost every Democrat in Congress is on record on M4A, BUT LET'S WASTE TIME WITH A POINTLESS SHOW-VOTE THAT WILL ACCOMPLISH NOTHING BUT TELL US WHO THE REAL TRAITORS ARE!" guy as like...serious?

    The guy who can't be bothered to do some casual web searching before promoting a pointless, stupid, waste of time so he could have another podcast about how those damned Demonrats are all the problem and if you go to Hello Fresh today you can get 15% off your first three months of fresh, chef-prepared healthy meals delivered right to your door.

  6. #4986
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    If you followed the conversation, you'd realize that's not what's happening. People like Jimmy Dore demonize an entire party and act like they're all sitting on their hands when it's a couple centrist "Democrats" that aren't playing ball.

    That's the point I was making.

    Of course the bill could have included more. There's plenty of shit they could have done to the bill to make it better. If you haven't noticed the United States political system is not ideal and needs a ton of work. However, the bill is still a net positive and it's worth acknowledging that they got it through in a timely fashion.
    Right, but as I and some others have been saying, the DINOs gumming up the process are Dems fault. The Dems just require the letter D, not actual liberal governance. The right, OTOH, are free to go as right as their black, cold, dead hearts desire.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  7. #4987
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Cosplay Socialism only works if you ignore that 50 GOP senators exist. Also, that it only takes 42% of Americans to elect those 50 senators.
    Democrats have the power to govern by removing filibuster... stop using gop as an excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    If you can't stop and appreciate that congress (just Democrats actually) pushed through a much needed bill that will actually help people instead of corporations, then I don't know what to tell you bud. It's not perfect, but take your wins where you can.

    Also, explain to me in clear English how Democrats are neo-liberal. I'm convinced that you don't understand the history of the term, what it actually means, and how it relates to the social liberalism that most Democrats practice. If you're going to reduce "all liberalism is neo-liberalism" then just say so and save me the effort of having this conversation with you. I need a "America doesn't have a left-libertarian party" discussion like I need a hole in the head.
    “Shut up and be happy don’t worry about the present issues at all how dare you”

    What a bogus position... when has progress ever been made that way????

  8. #4988
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Democrats have the power to govern by removing filibuster... stop using gop as an excuse.
    The Democrats have a bigger caucus with more ideological diversity, including "DINO"s (I can't believe people are unironically using that name). "DINO"'s that have often been key votes that, were there a Republican in that seat, would have made things harder on Democrats and easier on Republicans.

    But it means living with those more moderate Democrats during times like this. This is why I spent much of late last year cautioning folks against thinking that the "DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OVER THE SENATE" (and House, for that matter), is more of an illusion since it's a literal razer thin margin (no room for error) and ignores the ideological diversity within the existing Senate.

    Hopefully they can bring up a minimum wage increase separately and pass it clean, and if they don't then they've got Republicans and any Democrats who voted against it on record and can try to replace those folks. It helps that a number of Republicans are retiring so there maybe be a potential few seats opening up.

    Edit: And yes, kill the damned filibuster threat. If they want to filibuster, make them go through the act of it.

  9. #4989
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    “Shut up and be happy don’t worry about the present issues at all how dare you”

    What a bogus position... when has progress ever been made that way????
    You're defending junky, disingenuous criticism. Nobody is saying "just shut up and don't criticize" least of all me.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  10. #4990
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    DINOs is as ridiculous term as RINO... their allegiance is to constituents and not the party. Despite the fact that it disagrees with us, it’s still a good thing.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  11. #4991
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I don't know what the right message will be to get a place like West Virginia to flip, but I know for a fact saying, "fuck it, its impossible" isn't it.
    I mean, good thing I didn't say that, then?

  12. #4992
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The Democrats have a bigger caucus with more ideological diversity, including "DINO"s (I can't believe people are unironically using that name). "DINO"'s that have often been key votes that, were there a Republican in that seat, would have made things harder on Democrats and easier on Republicans.

    But it means living with those more moderate Democrats during times like this. This is why I spent much of late last year cautioning folks against thinking that the "DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OVER THE SENATE" (and House, for that matter), is more of an illusion since it's a literal razer thin margin (no room for error) and ignores the ideological diversity within the existing Senate.

    Hopefully they can bring up a minimum wage increase separately and pass it clean, and if they don't then they've got Republicans and any Democrats who voted against it on record and can try to replace those folks. It helps that a number of Republicans are retiring so there maybe be a potential few seats opening up.

    Edit: And yes, kill the damned filibuster threat. If they want to filibuster, make them go through the act of it.
    Let's stop calling the moderate Democrats because it isn't really a "moderate" position they have... I knew not much would change when it came to major issues because of the conservative democrats.

    I stand in the camp of. A majority of democrats and republicans have personal interests that are in conflict with their constituents and act in accordance with what they believe they can do while still not losing their seat. So if 70% of their constituents want a higher wage, but they can get away with no raising it, why raise it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    DINOs is as ridiculous term as RINO... their allegiance is to constituents and not the party. Despite the fact that it disagrees with us, it’s still a good thing.
    You sure about that? Because looking at the polling... their allegiance isn't to their constituents.

    I think perhaps their allegiance is to their pocketbook and future aspirations of lobbying or board seats? Or just personal finance in general. Somewhere in there are then their donors.

  13. #4993
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Sigh.

    OK, how much does it cost per person, then?
    At least 80 million total for a senate race since you are talking about moving 40 points plus that would be a very conservative estimate.

  14. #4994
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    At least 80 million total for a senate race since you are talking about moving 40 points plus that would be a very conservative estimate.
    US senator average worth is like 14 million (higher now likely since this is 2011) 80mn doesn't seem like all that much.

  15. #4995
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Cosplay Socialism only works if you ignore that 50 GOP senators exist. Also, that it only takes 42% of Americans to elect those 50 senators.
    well the fact that 100% of American's can't vote that 42% drifts much higher.....
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  16. #4996
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    US senator average worth is like 14 million (higher now likely since this is 2011) 80mn doesn't seem like all that much.
    ??? $80 million is greater than $14 million or is there a typo or mistake here??

  17. #4997
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    well the fact that 100% of American's can't vote that 42% drifts much higher.....
    Important to point out that some Americans cant vote, because of GOP poll taxes.
    Cosplay Socialists cant vote, because they either forgot to register for 9 years in a row. Or they're acksullay British,Danish,Belgian,WElsh.

    Same people also complained a year that primary voters in South Carolina and Georgia "dont matter."


    In honor of Bloody Sunday, Dems are messaging their Voter Rights bill H.R.1.

  18. #4998
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    In honor of Bloody Sunday, Dems are messaging their Voter Rights bill H.R.1.
    They need up up their game hard and go big after Republicans who oppose it. This needs to pass, and if they have to taken Manchin and Sinema into a dark room and tell them they're gonna get primaried to get them to back it, so be it. This isn't something that has immediate consequences like the covid stimulus, but it's something that has far wider ranging structural consequences that should serve to improve issues with campaign finance. It's not a full package, but it's a good start.

  19. #4999
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You sure about that? Because looking at the polling... their allegiance isn't to their constituents.
    Yes, as sure as the campaign video of Munchin I linked on the previous page, literally shooting a cap and trade bill, with a rifle... do I need to link it again?

    Here is another, he does it with a shot gun, but doesn’t mention preventing government spending, as he did in the previous:

    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  20. #5000
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    They need up up their game hard and go big after Republicans who oppose it. This needs to pass, and if they have to taken Manchin and Sinema into a dark room and tell them they're gonna get primaried to get them to back it, so be it. This isn't something that has immediate consequences like the covid stimulus, but it's something that has far wider ranging structural consequences that should serve to improve issues with campaign finance. It's not a full package, but it's a good start.
    As much as I personally dont like Machin or Sinema. I dont think threats will work on them. Again, Justice Dems already tried to Primary Manchin, and failed. Life isnt a Liam Neeson movie. Dems dont respond to primary threats the same way the GOP does. The LEFT just doent mobilize primary voters like the NRA or evangelicals could.

    Maybe Manchin willingness to "reform the filibuster" has some merit. But I just dont trust any from MTP or Axios.
    Maybe attach it to another bill, like Infrastructure or the spending omnibus.

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