1. #5081
    I'm not spending much time on politics or current events these days, but I have been keeping up a bit with the news. Here are my takes.

    This is a huge win for President Biden and for the democratic party. Senator Manchin went on some station and did an interview, and he did a really good job of praising and defending President Biden, and also praised and defended the bill. This basically told the US: the different parts of the democratic party have our differences, and we work them out like adults. And because of this, we just passed an AWESOME bill that will help America in a LOT of ways (and he talked about many of these ways).

    The contrast between him and the whole republican party could not have been more stark.

    The democratic debate over this bill was very noteworthy for the fact that republicans had absolutely no say in the matter. They had the right to air their opinions, but basically no one cared. Another way to say it is: President Biden is pertinent. Senator McConnell is just some guy. President Biden CRUSHED Senator McConnell.

    Now that Senator Manchin has agreed publicly to change the filibuster to forcing republicans to actually talk for hours on end explaining exactly why their constituents should NOT get various forms of aid, President Biden and Senator Schumer are in a position to politically flat out rout republicans. As things stand, the democrats cannot pass any more bills until after the 2022 Congress is seated. At this point I have full faith that the President Biden / Speaker Pelosi / Senator Schumer team will do a very good job at advancing democratic ideals and putting republicans in very uncomfortable situations. Hopefully in 2 years there will be more democrats and fewer republicans and more will be able to be accomplished.

    And, if I understand correctly, a lot of the "concessions" that were made in the Senate were additional items Speaker Pelosi inserted in the original bill. If I understand it correctly, Speaker Pelosi added some thing in the bill so that Senator Manchin could "stand up to liberals" before basically voting for the original bill. This sounds like first rate negotiating to me.

    Democrats won a HUGE victory, and republicans got trounced. There will be a lot more obstacles until 2022.

  2. #5082
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s fantastic... but... By doing what he is doing, Manchin is keeping the promise he was elected on. You can’t use national numbers or evidance from another state, to prove that Manchin is doing anything different than what he promised.
    Recent polling shows 63% support for $15/hr in WV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    I'm not spending much time on politics or current events these days, but I have been keeping up a bit with the news. Here are my takes.

    This is a huge win for President Biden and for the democratic party. Senator Manchin went on some station and did an interview, and he did a really good job of praising and defending President Biden, and also praised and defended the bill. This basically told the US: the different parts of the democratic party have our differences, and we work them out like adults. And because of this, we just passed an AWESOME bill that will help America in a LOT of ways (and he talked about many of these ways).

    The contrast between him and the whole republican party could not have been more stark.

    The democratic debate over this bill was very noteworthy for the fact that republicans had absolutely no say in the matter. They had the right to air their opinions, but basically no one cared. Another way to say it is: President Biden is pertinent. Senator McConnell is just some guy. President Biden CRUSHED Senator McConnell.

    Now that Senator Manchin has agreed publicly to change the filibuster to forcing republicans to actually talk for hours on end explaining exactly why their constituents should NOT get various forms of aid, President Biden and Senator Schumer are in a position to politically flat out rout republicans. As things stand, the democrats cannot pass any more bills until after the 2022 Congress is seated. At this point I have full faith that the President Biden / Speaker Pelosi / Senator Schumer team will do a very good job at advancing democratic ideals and putting republicans in very uncomfortable situations. Hopefully in 2 years there will be more democrats and fewer republicans and more will be able to be accomplished.

    And, if I understand correctly, a lot of the "concessions" that were made in the Senate were additional items Speaker Pelosi inserted in the original bill. If I understand it correctly, Speaker Pelosi added some thing in the bill so that Senator Manchin could "stand up to liberals" before basically voting for the original bill. This sounds like first rate negotiating to me.

    Democrats won a HUGE victory, and republicans got trounced. There will be a lot more obstacles until 2022.
    I don't have faith in them... I didn't have much faith under Obama either. I don't have much faith in long term serving politicians like Pelosi and Schumer. Maybe Schumer a little more, but that's only because he's in NY and NY moderates have been losing seats only to be replaced by progressives, so if he wants to keep his seat he has to at least pretend to support the policies.

    I have admitted that Biden is more left than Obama was at least.

  3. #5083
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I have admitted that Biden is more left than Obama was at least.
    It's deeply amusing to me that Biden, the moderate white guy they paired with the radical Black guy Obama to ease moderate voters, ends up being the most progressive president we've had in our lifetimes.

    At the end of the day, as pathetic as it is, getting this stimulus through even without the minimum wage increase is still big. It wouldn't happen if Democrats didn't take the Senate/WH and didn't maintain the House (barely). If they had more votes in the Senate I'm sure they would have gone a bit further since they could have lost someone like Manchin, but this is still a big step foward.

    And in no small part because I don't think folks realize how important the state/local financial aide is. Seriously, these states/cities/counties have huge budget holes and provide extensive services to folks there and are also the ones rolling out the vaccination programs and desperately need funding for it.

    Dems can eat their shit sammich on the $2K checks being $1,400. They can eat their shit sammich on not being able to get the minimum wage increase in there, hopefully they can bring it back up separately and if not $15/h they can get close to it and at least start on the path towards getting to a living wage.

    But this is still a pretty big win and a huge help for a ton of folks right now, especially small businesses needing more PPP loans and folks who were about to lose expanded unemployment benefits. And we don't have any Republicans to thank for it. I'm not saying let's fawn over Democrats for getting 70% of the way there, but remember who the bigger problem in the equation is.

  4. #5084
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Recent polling shows 63% support for $15/hr in WV.
    Yet, he was elected... how does that happen?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  5. #5085
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Average worthper Senator. Overall there's I think about 2 billion?

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    Florida senators voted against $15 min wage after Florida itself passed it... their allegiance isn't to their constituents.
    And we can surmise that they clearly weren’t worried about that being a factor that would prevent their re-election or being removed by democrats running against them.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #5086
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I have admitted that Biden is more left than Obama was at least.
    I disagree whole hardly... I have not seen enough to override me seeing him argue... ‘when they say democrats will take your guns... point to me... Joe won’t take your guns’... I still see him as the calming voice for the GOP...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  7. #5087
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I mean, good thing I didn't say that, then?
    Feel free to quote where I said you did.

    Don't forget you jumped into a conversation where I was talking about how I think its wrong people act like it cannot be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    DINOs is as ridiculous term as RINO... their allegiance is to constituents and not the party. Despite the fact that it disagrees with us, it’s still a good thing.
    Your argument for why we shouldn't use those terms, doesn't make sense.

    There is nothing inherent in either acronym, that implies or states there should be fealty to their given party and not their constituents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    At least 80 million total for a senate race since you are talking about moving 40 points plus that would be a very conservative estimate.
    It costs 80 million to change one person's mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yet, he was elected... how does that happen?
    Because the DNC has the same self defeated attitude that many of you have on here.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  8. #5088
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Your argument for why we shouldn't use those terms, doesn't make sense.
    Because it presumes some singular ideology within the party, with everyone sharing the same views and policy positions. It's absolute nonsense and doesn't make any sense to begin with.

    There's a reason that Republicans jumped to using it when their own "Started stepping out of line", and there's a reason we have a nearly ideologically consistent and awful Republican party where there used to be a bit more diversity in the party. Because that kind of thinking weeds out anyone that isn't a hard-liner/extremist for the most part.

    Like it or not, the Democratic tent remains a pretty damned broad one. It's why primaries are usually pretty messy, because there's more ideological diversity within the DNC than the RNC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    There is nothing inherent in either acronym, that implies or states there should be fealty to their given party and not their constituents.
    "Democrat in name only" dude...it's inherently placing fealty to party above all else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Because the DNC has the same self defeated attitude that many of you have on here.
    Or, because a progressive candidate ain't gonna win that seat. They'd need "progressive" candidates a la GA, and even then they'd need a massive ground game akin to Fair Fight to have a chance.

    Why does everyone think that every state/district is just waiting for some progressive darling to run because clearly no progressive has ever run for those seats before? >.>

  9. #5089
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because it presumes some singular ideology within the party, with everyone sharing the same views and policy positions. It's absolute nonsense and doesn't make any sense to begin with.

    There's a reason that Republicans jumped to using it when their own "Started stepping out of line", and there's a reason we have a nearly ideologically consistent and awful Republican party where there used to be a bit more diversity in the party. Because that kind of thinking weeds out anyone that isn't a hard-liner/extremist for the most part.

    Like it or not, the Democratic tent remains a pretty damned broad one. It's why primaries are usually pretty messy, because there's more ideological diversity within the DNC than the RNC.



    "Democrat in name only" dude...it's inherently placing fealty to party above all else.
    Jesus fucking christ it is not. Not in any way.

    It is saying they aren't actually a democrat/republican. That's it. Not that should be. Not that they owe anything to any party. There's nothing about who they should service at all.

    Its like if someone put a coke label on a mountain dew, I'm allowed to say that's not really a coke, without you assuming I'm saying no one likes mountain dew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Or, because a progressive candidate ain't gonna win that seat. They'd need "progressive" candidates a la GA, and even then they'd need a massive ground game akin to Fair Fight to have a chance.

    Why does everyone think that every state/district is just waiting for some progressive darling to run because clearly no progressive has ever run for those seats before? >.>
    Yes, by all means repeat the same mantra I'm saying is bullshit to counter me saying it is bullshit....makes lots of sense.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #5090
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bi...?mod=home-page

    Some good news: The Senate version of the bill includes tax protection for student loan forgiveness. So if Biden does get around to canceling that (hopefully up to $50K, but if it's $10K that's still a huge load off of a ton of folks) then beneficiaries won't be staring at a big tax bill afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It is saying they aren't actually a democrat/republican. That's it.
    And why aren't the actually a Democrat/Republican, though?

    Because, as the pejorative implies, they're not sufficiently loyal to the party line. Because party goes above all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    There's nothing about who they should service at all.
    Yes there, is, the party. Because it's used as an insult, meaning that the individual is not sufficiently loyal to the party line instead of say, their constituents who may largely like the party line but may differ on some issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Its like if someone put a coke label on a mountain dew, I'm allowed to say that's not really a coke, without you assuming I'm saying no one likes mountain dew.
    Literally backing my point up dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Yes, by all means repeat the same mantra I'm saying is bullshit to counter me saying it is bullshit....makes lots of sense.
    Because it's like...true? I mean, Justice Democrats tried the whole "primary a ton of conservative Democrats" thing a few elections ago and it blew up in their faces because it doesn't work like that. Want success? GA is success. Huge ground game, strategically pushing for "GA progressive" Senators that would be much more in line with progressive overall but not so progressive as to turn off voters.

    Because you can't just assume national politics play out on local levels across the country.

  11. #5091
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And why aren't the actually a Democrat/Republican, though?

    Because, as the pejorative implies, they're not sufficiently loyal to the party line. Because party goes above all.



    Yes there, is, the party. Because it's used as an insult, meaning that the individual is not sufficiently loyal to the party line instead of say, their constituents who may largely like the party line but may differ on some issues.



    Literally backing my point up dude.
    Seriously what the fuck are you even talking about? You are literally inventing shit on the fly. The name does not imply they should be x or y, just that the label they choose to use isn't all that accurate. Serve your people, but the label you chose to define yourself is wrong. My analogy destroys your point. My god. Following your batshit logic, the Trump cultists that pretended to be antifa should be labled as antifa. "Look at the cat, we call it a dog, and if you say that's not actually a dog it means you hate cats!!!!!!" <------you and your logic


    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because it's like...true? I mean, Justice Democrats tried the whole "primary a ton of conservative Democrats" thing a few elections ago and it blew up in their faces because it doesn't work like that. Want success? GA is success. Huge ground game, strategically pushing for "GA progressive" Senators that would be much more in line with progressive overall but not so progressive as to turn off voters.

    Because you can't just assume national politics play out on local levels across the country.
    Sigh...once again....I don't think conventional wisdom in how they even attack the problem is the right way. People's minds get changed all the time. Find the way to do it, instead of saying, "this single strategy we have for campaigning, won't work here, so don't do it."
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2021-03-08 at 08:47 PM.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  12. #5092
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The name does not imply they should be x or y, just that the label they choose to use isn't all that accurate.
    The label is inaccurate because...they're not actually Democrats because they don't believe the same things Democrats believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Following your batshit logic, the Trump cultists that pretended to be antifa should be tabled as antifa.
    Actually, no! They're "AINA", antifa in name only. Which is an accurate term, because they don't believe the same shit antifa folks believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Find the way to do it, instead of saying, "this single strategy we have for campaigning, won't work here, so don't do it."
    Which is why I'm saying to look to GA, now copy them. Why I said that national politics don't play out on the local level.

    Also, I'll point out, amusingly, that Biden is the second Democratic president to come into office during an economic crisis where federal aide is desperately needed. It happened back in 2009 after the Great Recession and he pushed for the American Recovvery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

    It was similarly majority popular in polling - https://news.gallup.com/poll/114202/...lus-fight.aspx

    And when you look at the votes -

    https://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll046.xml

    Party line in the House, all 177 Republicans and 11 of the 255 Democrats voted against it. Passed purely off the Democratic vote of 244 in favor.

    https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...00061#position

    Senate vote was 61:37, with all but three Republicans (Collins, Snowe, Specter) voting against it.

    Republicans sure seem to really hate helping people out during economic crisis, and Democrats have a tougher time of it with a thinner majority than previously.

    Thankfully this time Democrats didn't bother with as much effort for bipartisanship, knowing they would see none in return, and so we have a better stimulus bill compared to the 09 one.

  13. #5093
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The Democrats have a bigger caucus with more ideological diversity, including "DINO"s (I can't believe people are unironically using that name). "DINO"'s that have often been key votes that, were there a Republican in that seat, would have made things harder on Democrats and easier on Republicans.

    But it means living with those more moderate Democrats during times like this. This is why I spent much of late last year cautioning folks against thinking that the "DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OVER THE SENATE" (and House, for that matter), is more of an illusion since it's a literal razer thin margin (no room for error) and ignores the ideological diversity within the existing Senate.

    Hopefully they can bring up a minimum wage increase separately and pass it clean, and if they don't then they've got Republicans and any Democrats who voted against it on record and can try to replace those folks. It helps that a number of Republicans are retiring so there maybe be a potential few seats opening up.

    Edit: And yes, kill the damned filibuster threat. If they want to filibuster, make them go through the act of it.
    For me, as far as I am concerned, HR1 is the most important bill I have seen them push for in living memory.

    So long as they push HR1 though before the next redistriting, then they have done the most important legislation they are likely to do which will reshape the elections for generations to come in a positive way
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  14. #5094
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's deeply amusing to me that Biden, the moderate white guy they paired with the radical Black guy Obama to ease moderate voters, ends up being the most progressive president we've had in our lifetimes.

    At the end of the day, as pathetic as it is, getting this stimulus through even without the minimum wage increase is still big. It wouldn't happen if Democrats didn't take the Senate/WH and didn't maintain the House (barely). If they had more votes in the Senate I'm sure they would have gone a bit further since they could have lost someone like Manchin, but this is still a big step foward.

    And in no small part because I don't think folks realize how important the state/local financial aide is. Seriously, these states/cities/counties have huge budget holes and provide extensive services to folks there and are also the ones rolling out the vaccination programs and desperately need funding for it.

    Dems can eat their shit sammich on the $2K checks being $1,400. They can eat their shit sammich on not being able to get the minimum wage increase in there, hopefully they can bring it back up separately and if not $15/h they can get close to it and at least start on the path towards getting to a living wage.

    But this is still a pretty big win and a huge help for a ton of folks right now, especially small businesses needing more PPP loans and folks who were about to lose expanded unemployment benefits. And we don't have any Republicans to thank for it. I'm not saying let's fawn over Democrats for getting 70% of the way there, but remember who the bigger problem in the equation is.
    I struggle to see the upside. I mean I can "see" it but I can't see how we go upwards and now downwards given history.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yet, he was elected... how does that happen?
    Felya don't be intellectually dishonest... you know how it happens. You know how people vote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I disagree whole hardly... I have not seen enough to override me seeing him argue... ‘when they say democrats will take your guns... point to me... Joe won’t take your guns’... I still see him as the calming voice for the GOP...
    You disagree that Biden is more left than Obama? Obama stayed silent on union issues... Obama refused to raise the minimum wage when congress was asking him to make it an issue. Obama during the economic recession made it a top priority to pay off businesses. Now he says he may have done differently...

  15. #5095
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I struggle to see the upside. I mean I can "see" it but I can't see how we go upwards and now downwards given history.
    Because the alternative would be that the last stimulus was the final stimulus. And that Democrats are getting a pretty big "win" right outta the gates that gives them some momentum to build on.

  16. #5096
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The label is inaccurate because...they're not actually Democrats because they don't believe the same things Democrats believe.



    Actually, no! They're "AINA", antifa in name only. Which is an accurate term, because they don't believe the same shit antifa folks believe.
    So you're agreeing with me now? Yes, calling someone a DINO or RINO, means they don't believe the same things the party they chose believes. That's it. That is all it means and all I said it means. You're the one pretending it means more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Which is why I'm saying to look to GA, now copy them. Why I said that national politics don't play out on the local level.

    Also, I'll point out, amusingly, that Biden is the second Democratic president to come into office during an economic crisis where federal aide is desperately needed. It happened back in 2009 after the Great Recession and he pushed for the American Recovvery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

    It was similarly majority popular in polling - https://news.gallup.com/poll/114202/...lus-fight.aspx

    And when you look at the votes -

    https://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll046.xml

    Party line in the House, all 177 Republicans and 11 of the 255 Democrats voted against it. Passed purely off the Democratic vote of 244 in favor.

    https://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...00061#position

    Senate vote was 61:37, with all but three Republicans (Collins, Snowe, Specter) voting against it.

    Republicans sure seem to really hate helping people out during economic crisis, and Democrats have a tougher time of it with a thinner majority than previously.

    Thankfully this time Democrats didn't bother with as much effort for bipartisanship, knowing they would see none in return, and so we have a better stimulus bill compared to the 09 one.
    Sure copy them, I didn't argue against that. I take exception to the notion that Manchin is the best Dems can get in WV, or that some states won't ever flip. That's all i was saying. I think much of Dems defeats come at the hands of the incorrect notion they cannot go more liberal in a given state, election, etc.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  17. #5097
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because the alternative would be that the last stimulus was the final stimulus. And that Democrats are getting a pretty big "win" right outta the gates that gives them some momentum to build on.
    If you would have told me a year ago that the dems would manage to pass something like this inside 50 days of being elected I would have laughed. Is it 100% what I wanted no but most of the changes were very much nibbling around the edges and the change to the 10500 exemption for money made via unemployment is going to help a LOT of people probably in a more impactful way than the 100 extra a month. A lot of people are going to be meeting some very surprise bills from taxes that this should help alleviate.

  18. #5098
    Very disappointing if no 15$ minimum wage. More of the same old really. People are just going to get left behind.

  19. #5099
    Quote Originally Posted by Selvari7 View Post
    Very disappointing if no 15$ minimum wage. More of the same old really. People are just going to get left behind.
    Yeah, left behind with...

    Stimulus checks
    No tax bill for unemployment, and potentially student loan forgiveness if that happens
    Expanded unemployment benefits for longer
    State/local funding to help prop up locals that are hurting and need money to provide services including vaccine rollout programs
    PPP loans for more small businesses so they can get through this and keep paying employees so there's less of a crush on the unemployment system

    It wasn't just the $15/h wage, and while we can all lament that it won't make it in this bill we can work to pressure our Reps/Senators to bring it back up separately and push for a vote.

    It's weird the way these big, expansive bills are often whittled down to a single issue ($2K stim checks or $15/h minimum wage).

  20. #5100
    Quote Originally Posted by Selvari7 View Post
    Very disappointing if no 15$ minimum wage. More of the same old really. People are just going to get left behind.
    The big push is HR1, they pass that and the rest becomes easier and more representative of the people.

    HR1 is the single most important and impactful legislation I have seen in our lifetimes.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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