1. #5361
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    They're kinda not though? I mean, unless they want to start acting like the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus, which is a terrible idea given what we saw happen to the Republican party with that nonsense. Nobody is happy that Manchin and Sinema are sticks in the mud, we don't need a second set of sticks in the mud in the House.

    And sure, Democrats should be having hearty and robust debates, but I'd prefer that not happen in public with mudslinging for the sake of their collective agendas.



    I mean...the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus were the "original" third party in that case, and this progressive caucus would be a "fourth" party.

    I just don't want this to be a bullshit fight where nothing gets done because the progressive group in the House is stonewalling on half the legislation and Manchin/Sinema are stonewalling in the Senate on the other half. That's the fastest way to getting Democrats overall, moderate/conservative or progressive, voted out of office again.
    Oh come on.... Machin and Sinema are stick in the mud for things that would help people, while the progressives would be sticks in the mud for things that are already popular and people want. One of those has more merit than the other.

    And edge being that you think stone walling would be an issue that would cost democrats... why then wouldn't the democrats go along and make concessions on some issues? Such things only come from the right of the party but very rarely if ever (i can't think of an example off the top of my head) the left of the party.

    Progressives have been winning seats and they often won those seats on the energy of voters who want them to fight.

  2. #5362
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    If you don't want to talk about it, wouldn't the best course of action to not then attack people for it and antagonise them for no other reason than you don't understand idioms and phrases? You're the one who fucking brought it up, to begin with... so the fuck are you talking about?
    No, it’s best to point out the flaw and then walk away when it’s obvious an agreement will not be found. When it becomes obvious what the next steps are... you’ve been on this forum for 8 years... you don’t know how semantic arguments end?

    I am cool... with stating my opinion... I am cool with saying yours is superior... what else do you want from me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Subtlety and nuance? Skill and politicking?
    I bring a sledge hammer to a semantic argument... I’m always on 11...
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-12 at 01:47 AM.
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  3. #5363
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post

    You mean like angling for progressive amendments on legislation? Knowing when you need to "roll with the party", even if it's not totally in your ideological interest, because a stronger party and more power to potentially get through more of what you want later is in your ideological interest?

    Subtlety and nuance? Skill and politicking?
    Alternatively... play that game and eventually find yourself voted out for "rolling with the party" or... just the legislation you want not happening for who knows how long... or... do this and then lose the midterms anyway and.... profit?

    I'm interested to see how the midterms go actually for the house... will more progressive new comers unseat moderates again? If so... I would feel more comfortable saying... people want changes, and people would like for their representatives to fight for them.

    People are tired of the game of politics and scratching backs they just want things done. You can't equate the left and right sides of the argument here. It's like one side filibustering to stop civil rights and the other filibustering to support them.

  4. #5364
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Oh come on.... Machin and Sinema are stick in the mud for things that would help people, while the progressives would be sticks in the mud for things that are already popular and people want. One of those has more merit than the other.
    I guess, but it'll end up with both being sticks in the mud and blaming each other while Republicans go on Fox and Newsmax every day to laugh about how dysfunctional the Democrats are with their constant infighting.

    That seems like it'll sure help Democratic chances in 2022!

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    And edge being that you think stone walling would be an issue that would cost democrats... why then wouldn't the democrats go along and make concessions on some issues? Such things only come from the right of the party but very rarely if ever (i can't think of an example off the top of my head) the left of the party.
    Because the error is thinking that Sinema/Manchin dictated the bill and it's got no progressive wishlist items in it. It has stuff both groups want, that's compromise. It doesn't have as many progressive items as I'd like, but again, this is compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Progressives have been winning seats and they often won those seats on the energy of voters who want them to fight.
    And they are fighting. The covid relieve is one of the most progressive pieces of legislation since FDR or LBJ, depending on which yardstick you're using as a measurement. Is it perfect or as many hoped? No. But it's still pretty fuckin good, and any progressive politician going out and shitting on it right now is a god-damned idiot.

  5. #5365
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No, it’s best to point out the flaw and then walk away when it’s obvious an agreement will not be found. When it becomes obvious what the next steps are... you’ve been on this forum for 8 years... you don’t know how semantic arguments end?

    I am cool... with stating my opinion... I am cool with saying yours is superior... what else do you want from me?
    The flaw of using phrases used generally in the language? wouldn't the flaw be yours? To expect the rules of general language to not apply for some fucking reason... is bogus.

  6. #5366
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I guess, but it'll end up with both being sticks in the mud and blaming each other while Republicans go on Fox and Newsmax every day to laugh about how dysfunctional the Democrats are with their constant infighting.
    They invite Jimmy Dore and agree with him... Greenwald called Tucker a socialist, because they came to agree that democrats are the worst.
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-12 at 01:53 AM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  7. #5367
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Alternatively... play that game and eventually find yourself voted out for "rolling with the party" or... just the legislation you want not happening for who knows how long... or... do this and then lose the midterms anyway and.... profit?
    AOC's seat still seems pretty safe and she's damned popular, and she's learned that sometimes politicking to get what you want means you have to put on a smile and be nice with Nancy Pelosi instead of treating her as the enemy all the time, for example. Because that's how you get shit you want done, by building those relationships and knowing when you can push for your agenda and when it's smarter to build up some internal political capitol supporting others.

    Just as Sanders seat has been safe and he's been able to accomplish a fair amount via attaching more progressive amendments onto bills for decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I'm interested to see how the midterms go actually for the house... will more progressive new comers unseat moderates again? If so... I would feel more comfortable saying... people want changes, and people would like for their representatives to fight for them.
    Hey, I'm hopeful. If that's how the midterms play out the progressives will have a lot more muscle. But they need to win in the Senate as well, and that's proven to be the trickier part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    People are tired of the game of politics and scratching backs they just want things done.
    That's literally all politics, dude. You're not going to remove the importance of relationships from politics.

  8. #5368
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I guess, but it'll end up with both being sticks in the mud and blaming each other while Republicans go on Fox and Newsmax every day to laugh about how dysfunctional the Democrats are with their constant infighting.

    That seems like it'll sure help Democratic chances in 2022!



    Because the error is thinking that Sinema/Manchin dictated the bill and it's got no progressive wishlist items in it. It has stuff both groups want, that's compromise. It doesn't have as many progressive items as I'd like, but again, this is compromise.



    And they are fighting. The covid relieve is one of the most progressive pieces of legislation since FDR or LBJ, depending on which yardstick you're using as a measurement. Is it perfect or as many hoped? No. But it's still pretty fuckin good, and any progressive politician going out and shitting on it right now is a god-damned idiot.
    Do you think people would buy that same argument though? Schumer called the idea of trying to work with the GOP before a mistake. I think people are far less blind on the issues now than they were before. They see Manchin... and his daughter... and the rise of drug prices, and his opinions against the minimum wage as not great... so when he holds up something like wages... or expanded healthcare I don't believe people will say "you know what I blame the people fighting for it"

    Also, why worry about republicans and the shit they say? Isn't it already super clear nothing matters to them? Trump got a large percentage of Republican voters... they vote that way regardless but what can change outcomes are just more people voting. So many people are disillusioned with the system of our politics because what we what doesn't matter. Don't you think if more people saw progressives fighting in congress for the things that are most popular in this country, that then more people would rally behind them and vote?

    Despite all the bad press around Bernie... and the big scary S word about him, he did phenomenally well, partly because he is indeed seen as a fighter.

  9. #5369
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Do you think people would buy that same argument though? Schumer called the idea of trying to work with the GOP before a mistake.
    We are talking about working with democrats, not republicans.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  10. #5370
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No, it’s best to point out the flaw and then walk away when it’s obvious an agreement will not be found. When it becomes obvious what the next steps are... you’ve been on this forum for 8 years... you don’t know how semantic arguments end? .

  11. #5371
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    We are talking about working with democrats, not republicans.
    I guess, but it'll end up with both being sticks in the mud and blaming each other while Republicans go on Fox and Newsmax every day to laugh about how dysfunctional the Democrats are with their constant infighting.
    Read what I'm quoting then? The entire point was one shouldn't care what Republicans think because it doesn't matter... and the view of Schumer and GOP goes towards the idea that people aren't blind to the issues in Washington.

    Like why even butt into the conversation between me and Edge, take one line and repost it out of context to say "but we're talking about xyz"
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-03-12 at 01:59 AM.

  12. #5372
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    You have insulted my family... my friends... and most importantly my cow Betsy... by the eye of Odin, I will strike you down where...

    Would you mind standing up? Thanks!

    I will strike you down where you stand!!! You just took me to 12!!!!
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #5373
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Do you think people would buy that same argument though? Schumer called the idea of trying to work with the GOP before a mistake. I think people are far less blind on the issues now than they were before. They see Manchin... and his daughter... and the rise of drug prices, and his opinions against the minimum wage as not great... so when he holds up something like wages... or expanded healthcare I don't believe people will say "you know what I blame the people fighting for it"
    Ok, so if people vote out their Reps/Senators because a Senator from West Virginia is holding up something they want, I'm perfectly happy calling them fucking retards who shouldn't be voting in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Also, why worry about republicans and the shit they say?
    I don't worry about it too much really, but I'm also not entirely up for teeing up one of the easiest and most effective methods of attacking political opponents around. I mean, the Republican dysfunction was part of the reason that they lost the House/Senate these past few elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Don't you think if more people saw progressives fighting in congress for the things that are most popular in this country, that then more people would rally behind them and vote?
    If it resulted in nothing getting done? Yeah, actually. I'm hoping Manchin/Sinema's bullshit helps get both of them primaried by more progressive (though at least in WV likely not a "true" progressive) candidates with a real shot at winning the seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Despite all the bad press around Bernie... and the big scary S word around him, he did phenomenally well, partly because he is indeed seen as a fighter.
    Amongst Democratic voters, specifically younger Democratic voters, yeah. But he also failed to secure the nomination twice in a row, so while there's popularity it's still a minority opinion within the Democratic party writ large. Though I'd rather not go back to debating the last two presidential primaries, in case we're gonna argue over that.

  14. #5374
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Read what I'm quoting then? The entire point was one shouldn't care what Republicans think because it doesn't matter... and the view of Schumer and GOP goes towards the idea that people aren't blind to the issues in Washington.
    That doesn’t just reach republicans... it’s not a zero sum game... If it didn’t matter what happens on newsmax or Fox... why did anything that Trump would say there mater? Why did Birtharism mater? Why do their attacks and besmirching of socialism mater?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  15. #5375
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I don’t think so... not at all...
    thought she got dunked on for posting some max blumental stuff, maybe im mistaken

  16. #5376
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ok, so if people vote out their Reps/Senators because a Senator from West Virginia is holding up something they want, I'm perfectly happy calling them fucking retards who shouldn't be voting in the first place.



    I don't worry about it too much really, but I'm also not entirely up for teeing up one of the easiest and most effective methods of attacking political opponents around. I mean, the Republican dysfunction was part of the reason that they lost the House/Senate these past few elections.



    If it resulted in nothing getting done? Yeah, actually. I'm hoping Manchin/Sinema's bullshit helps get both of them primaried by more progressive (though at least in WV likely not a "true" progressive) candidates with a real shot at winning the seat.



    Amongst Democratic voters, specifically younger Democratic voters, yeah. But he also failed to secure the nomination twice in a row, so while there's popularity it's still a minority opinion within the Democratic party writ large. Though I'd rather not go back to debating the last two presidential primaries, in case we're gonna argue over that.
    Bernie got some terrible press on all the major news stations during that run.

    Remember MSNBC on the night of the debate and the old dude going off about how he's going to line people up and shoot them in central park and talking about all the evils of socialism? On MSNBC the most "left" of the major networks owned by Comcast

    Their dysfunction on the virus i assume you're on about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That doesn’t just reach republicans... it’s not a zero sum game... If it didn’t matter what happens on newsmax or Fox... why did anything that Trump would say there mater? Why did Birtharism mater? Why do their attacks and besmirching of socialism mater?
    Attacks on Socialism abound on MSNBC and CNN nevermind Fox, their attacks on socialism from fox... i don't think they truly mean all that much...

    The point is that Republicans are quite steady in their support if you recall... the other big news around election day was how the Democrats failed to pull republicans over to their side. It isn't a democrat failure though.. it is a republican culture issue.

    Birtherism... you know who else profited from that? the other two major networks who constantly ran the shit Trump was saying. It wasn't really a newsmax or fox thing... even if you didn't watch those networks chances were other networks ran it.
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-03-12 at 02:12 AM.

  17. #5377
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Their dysfunction on the virus i assume you're on about?
    No, in general. On the ACA repeal, and on getting anything else remotely meaningful done in their first 2 years or their second 2.

    Their biggest wins were packing the courts and the historically unpopular tax cut.

  18. #5378
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    No, in general. On the ACA repeal, and on getting anything else remotely meaningful done in their first 2 years or their second 2.

    Their biggest wins were packing the courts and the historically unpopular tax cut.
    Well... that's not dysfunction then. That's just a well-oiled judge printing machine. Republicans are in the amazing position of not actually needing to legislate much because they just pack courts with judges and then use them for precedence. They don't really want to "do" much of anything which is at this point... the design of the party.

    This is why the argument of how the filibuster would allow republicans to do this and that to me is mostly a flat one for the most part.

  19. #5379
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Well... that's not dysfunction then. That's just a well-oiled judge printing machine.
    In the Senate, sure. But they were also busy fighting amongst themselves and not passing legislation. Which I'd rather not see Democrats repeat, especially after this strong start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Republicans are in the amazing position of not actually needing to legislate much because they just pack courts with judges and then use them for precedence.
    This is not a remotely accurate take on the problem. They still need to legislate, judges can influence how laws are implemented but cannot legislate from the bench for better or worse. They also can't completely ignore laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    They don't really want to "do" much of anything which is at this point... the design of the party.
    Were this true, they'd be accomplishing more of their "goals" and wouldn't have lost the House/Senate the past two elections. This is not good political analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    This is why the argument of how the filibuster would allow republicans to do this and that to me is mostly a flat one for the most part.
    ...what? Aren't we all arguing for killing the filibuster threat? Who's talking about what it will allow Republicans to "do"?

  20. #5380
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/polit...sot-nr-vpx.cnn

    So, how is "progressive star" Rep. Omar responding to the bill that other "progressive star" Bernie Sanders is selling as a big progressive win?

    By boiling it down to literally just stimulus checks and complain that Trump send them to more people (lol). Apparently she doesn't realize how thin the majority in the Senate is. She's never remotely struck me as one of the smarter members of the squad, she's largely undisciplined as a national speaker and hasn't gained momentum and support the way others like AOC or Ayanna Pressley has.

    Democrats need to be unified in selling this win and talking about how they want to do more, nut cutting their knees out from under them and doing the Republicans job for them.
    I think this was arranged with President Biden so he could appear as being more moderate than he has been so far. This bill is hard to attack from the left, but there is still merit in the "this bill is a compromise between lefties and righties" narrative.

    Technically what she said is accurate. What she intentionally leaves out is that the original Trump bill was HEAVILY weighted towards corporate America, where this is heavily weighted towards middle and less class Americans.

    And what she said is a LOT less crazy than any of the the republican narratives. AOC and Sanders were correct to farm this task out. Rep. Omar got the short end of the stick!

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