Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[jonnysensible]

Some countries do just fine with no forced minimum wage.

name em then

[Elegiac]

And there it is, that would mean the correlation in the WaPo article also doesn't mean anything, refuting them, as well.

So it looks like we're back to square one of you not having any evidence of your claims about minimum wage spiking the unemployment rate.

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Some countries do just fine with no forced minimum wage.

Which are?

And you're not allowed to name countries with strong union protections in most to all industries that guarantee high wages without legal need, just as an addendum.

[Machismo]

Uh, yeah, why didn't you actually repeat the entire paragraph?




Strawmen hyperbole are strawmen hyperbole. The fact that you're using this is an argument means that you know you don't actually have a real argument, so... thanks?

It's great... unless you're that 2% who loses their jobs...

[Elegiac]

It's great... unless you're that 2% who loses their jobs...

And here I thought you believed in at-will employment.

You don't get to play workers' rights advocate while supporting union busting and wage suppression, sweaty.

[Machismo]

name em then

https://www.investopedia.com/article...imum-wages.asp

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And here I thought you believed in at-will employment.

You don't get to play workers' rights advocate while supporting union busting and wage suppression, sweaty.

I do, and I also don't support this minimum wage increase, let them agree on a price all their own.

[Elegiac]

https://www.investopedia.com/article...imum-wages.asp

> Nearly all Swedish citizens belong to one of about 60 trade unions and 50 employers' organizations that negotiate wage rates for regular hourly work, salaries, and overtime. The minimum wage tends to hover near 60% to 70% of the average wage in Sweden.

> Once again, trade unions take care of ensuring that workers are paid a reasonable wage and seem to be doing a fine job of it, keeping the average minimum wage across industries at a healthy $20 per hour.

> Employees in Iceland are automatically enrolled in trade unions, which are responsible for negotiating baseline salaries for the industries they represent.

> Norway is yet another northern nation that has eschewed a federally mandated minimum wage in favor of having union-negotiated wages set by industry.

> However, Switzerland also relies heavily on trade unions and employee organizations to negotiate fair wages for each industry, meaning 90% of the Swiss earn more than the proposed minimum anyway.

I wonder what the common factor here is.

[Machismo]

Uh, yeah, why didn't you actually repeat the entire paragraph?




Strawmen hyperbole are strawmen hyperbole. The fact that you're using this is an argument means that you know you don't actually have a real argument, so... thanks?

He's the one who said increasing the minimum wage creates jobs.

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> Nearly all Swedish citizens belong to one of about 60 trade unions and 50 employers' organizations that negotiate wage rates for regular hourly work, salaries, and overtime. The minimum wage tends to hover near 60% to 70% of the average wage in Sweden.

> Once again, trade unions take care of ensuring that workers are paid a reasonable wage and seem to be doing a fine job of it, keeping the average minimum wage across industries at a healthy $20 per hour.

> Employees in Iceland are automatically enrolled in trade unions, which are responsible for negotiating baseline salaries for the industries they represent.

> Norway is yet another northern nation that has eschewed a federally mandated minimum wage in favor of having union-negotiated wages set by industry.

> However, Switzerland also relies heavily on trade unions and employee organizations to negotiate fair wages for each industry, meaning 90% of the Swiss earn more than the proposed minimum anyway.

I wonder what the common factor here is.

Great, I fully support the use of unions.

[Elegiac]

Great, I fully support the use of unions.

No, you don't. Because unions require legal protections against being busted, and you don't like regulation on business.

[Machismo]

No you don't. Because unions require legal protections against being busted, and you don't like regulation on business.

Now you are telling me what I support? Weird.

[Elegiac]

Now you are telling me what I support? Weird.

You have already told us plenty of times what your attitudes to government and regulation are.

Both of those things things are necessary components in ensuring unions are effective as a means of wage negotiation in the absence of minimum wage laws. So when you say "we can get on fine without minimum wage like Germany", what you're calling for is even stronger regulations than would exist under a hiked minimum wage.

Pardon me if I find that laughably contradictory and couched in ignorance of other countries.

[Machismo]

You have already told us plenty of times what your attitudes to government and regulation are.

Both of those things things are necessary components in ensuring unions are effective as a means of wage negotiation in the absence of minimum wage laws. So when you say "we can get on fine without minimum wage like Germany", what you're calling for is even stronger regulations than would exist under a hiked minimum wage.

Pardon me if I find that laughably contradictory.

You are claiming I don't support something I just said I supported.

You really should stop lying.

[Fugus]

Some countries do just fine with no forced minimum wage.

As others have said? Such as?

And also remember that ones with strong UNIONS make that unneeded as their collective bargaining power sets that minimum wage for them. So if you mention them, you are admitting it is needed by some force stronger than the individual or the fabled free market to set it.

[Elegiac]

You are claiming I don't support something I just said I supported.

And I'm claiming what you said is a lie based on the positions you've supported previously. Shocker.

Doesn't change you saying "we don't need minimum wage" and then pointing to highly regulated labor markets as a evidence, lol.

[Machismo]

As others have said? Such as?

And also remember that ones with strong UNIONS make that unneeded as their collective bargaining power sets that minimum wage for them. So if you mention them, you are admitting it is needed by some force stronger than the individual or the fabled free market to set it.

It was provided.

I support unions.

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And I'm claiming what you said is a lie based on the positions you've supported previously. Shocker.

Well, my claims state otherwise. You were refuted before you even lied.

[Elegiac]

I support unions.

Why unions, but not minimum wage.

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Well, my claims state otherwise. You were refuted before you even lied.

No, actually, pretty sure I qualified that you weren't allowed to use countries with strong union protections as evidence because it makes no sense opposing minimum wage while also supporting a union-dominated labor market.

Unless of course one happens to hold the moronic belief that because government is mandating the wage as opposed to a government backed union, it's different somehow.

[Machismo]

Why unions, but not minimum wage.

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No, actually, pretty sure I qualified that you weren't allowed to use countries with strong union protections as evidence because it makes no sense opposing minimum wage while also supporting a union-dominated labor market.

So, you want to move goalposts and whine... weird.

You don't get to make the rules.

Unions are simply an act of voluntary collective bargaining, which I fully support.

[Fugus]

@Machismo

And whether you support unions or not, the fact of the matter is that unions are effectively dead in America for the working class outside of the police so you can't rely on them to negotiate that wage, which still puts you back to needing the government to fill that need until Unions are back with enough power to fill it instead, which won't be for decades to a century from now given all the damage done to them by the "No regulation" fuck ups.

[PhaelixWW]

It's great... unless you're that 2% who loses their jobs...

And yet you still can't read that it wasn't 2%, it was "maybe 0.5%". And perhaps those "maybe 0.5%" were working two jobs before but now only need to work one, so hurray for them!

You're holding on to a whole lotta nothing here.

[Fugus]

It was provided.

I support unions.

Great, you provided proof that you couldn't find a place succeeding without a minimum wage of some sort, think you. And you can support the unions but until they are strong enough to do their jobs, the government will need to do it instead. Just like the government was needed to protect the unions to give the workers that bargaining power to begin with.

Sorry but, government regulations are a necessity in the labor market, like it or not.

[Machismo]

@Machismo

And whether you support unions or not, the fact of the matter is that unions are effectively dead in America for the working class outside of the police so you can't rely on them to negotiate that wage, which still puts you back to needing the government to fill that need until Unions are back with enough power to fill it instead, which won't be for decades to a century from now given all the damage done to them by the "No regulation" fuck ups.

Well, only buy products from companies that employ union staff.

Problem solved.