1. #6081
    Moving the other side's goalposts just to makee some wild assertion pretty much invalidates the argument of the person making such a move.

    Does someone need a timeout?

  2. #6082
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Moving the other side's goalposts just to makee some wild assertion pretty much invalidates the argument of the person making such a move.

    Does someone need a timeout?
    I said I'd support a $100 minimum wage, let's get Biden to sign it. If it's as beneficial as everyoe is saying, I see no reason to stop at 415 an hour. Let's get the plan to Biden and the Democrats, as soon as possible.

    Are you on board? If not, why?

  3. #6083
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Moving the other side's goalposts just to makee some wild assertion pretty much invalidates the argument of the person making such a move.

    Does someone need a timeout?
    Apparently. It's pretty telling from the way this "well why isn't a hundred dollars an hour okay then" nonsense started the instant his nonsense about Seattle's minimum wage was debunked.

    Obvious gish gallop is obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #6084
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I said I'd support a $100 minimum wage, let's get Biden to sign it.
    Are you on board? If not, why?
    Because that's not the argument.
    But then that's probably because you've already lost it.

  5. #6085
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Apparently. It's pretty telling from the way this "well why isn't a hundred dollars an hour okay then" nonsense started the instant his nonsense about Seattle's minimum wage was debunked.

    Obvious gish gallop is obvious.
    Nope, try again.

    You guys are arguing that forced pay raises are beneficial, I'm simply calling you out on it. If you want Biden to sign a $15 an hour minimum wage, then why not shoot for more?

    Mind you, this all started because people were pissed that Biden and the Democrats couldn't get a few members of their party on board.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Because that's not the argument.
    But then that's probably because you've already lost it.
    This is the argument, minimum wage increases are a benefit, and people are clearly pissed that Biden and the Democratic party are not pushing their moderates hard enough to sign on to it.

  6. #6086
    Guys, lets move all things Machismo to the appropriate thread now that we have one.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  7. #6087
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Guys, lets move all things Machismo to the appropriate thread now that we have one.
    I'm still more than willing to talk about Biden and the rest of the Democrats not acting in lockstep on this thing.

    I haven't derailed it once, because this has always been about them acting at the behest of their constituents, as well as their own political careers.

  8. #6088
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    While we're still in a pandemic, that we're thankfully starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel for? Yeah, actually.



    No, the message is that we're already overwhelmed here. This is an American official speaking for America, not for asylum seekers. There are times where it makes sense to pause or slow things down, like a pandemic. This isn't Trumpian, it's immigration policy.



    I think they one they put out was fine.



    Again. Context. There's a pandemic and another massive surge of unaccompanied minors that they can't even keep up with right now. Saying, "COME ON UP!" isn't gonna help with that.



    Because you seem to assume that it's closed in perpetuity or something. While the common sense read is, "They're closed for now because of course, we're still in a pandemic."



    Because we're in a pandemic and officials are already overwhelmed...so I guess making the situation worse is...better?
    You're ignoring again exactly what these people are fleeing.

  9. #6089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You're ignoring again exactly what these people are fleeing.
    Is this an argument that the treatment at the border is superior to anything they are fleeing?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
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  10. #6090
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Is this an argument that the treatment at the border is superior to anything they are fleeing?
    Keep up.

    I was speaking about messaging and how this doesn't sound like a good message.

    The phrase "the border is closed" is not one that should be said by anyone in this administration given Trump. Don't strawman.

    The messaging isn't great when you're speaking to people, many of them that are fleeing deathly situations. The media made a big stink during the Trump era when people were sent back or denied and those people then ended up dead or sold into sex slavery.

    How quick some people are to forget the extent of the issue...

    "by golly, I don't think saying "our border is closed don't come is bad messaging for our president."

    Perhaps not, if we ignore Trump saying to close the border and turning people away which caused an uproar. It also requires one to ignore the dangerous state of affairs in those asylum seeker's countries. "border closed don't come" ignores those very real issues. Hence why it is poor messaging...

  11. #6091
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The phrase "the border is closed" is not one that should be said by anyone in this administration given Trump. Don't strawman.
    During a pandemic when the border is already overwhelmed with unaccompanied minors...not really? I mean, context my dude. It matters a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The messaging isn't great when you're speaking to people, many of them that are fleeing deathly situations. The media made a big stink during the Trump era when people were sent back or denied and those people then ended up dead or sold into sex slavery.
    Because the context was wildly different. Context. Matters.

  12. #6092
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    During a pandemic when the border is already overwhelmed with unaccompanied minors...not really? I mean, context my dude. It matters a lot.



    Because the context was wildly different. Context. Matters.
    Does it? During the pandemic all through until Biden took his place, there was outrage over sending away migrants. I don't recall many from the left saying "no actually what Trump is doing, in this case, is needed"

  13. #6093
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    What incentive do they have to cave? They live in red states in districts that would easily go to a Republican if the Democratic party pushed too hard against them.

    A $15 minimum wage in West Virginia would be a crushing blow to many small towns, because prices would go up, and businesses would close. West Virginia is dead fucking last in the United States in median income, so they would see the biggest negative impact to this.
    Manchin is a democrat is he not? Imagine he just delays the bill for months over 15$ minimum wage. How do you think that would go over?

  14. #6094
    Quote Originally Posted by Selvari7 View Post
    Manchin is a democrat is he not? Imagine he just delays the bill for months over 15$ minimum wage. How do you think that would go over?
    It would go over well in his state, and he's not the only one.

    In the end, he's a moderate in a conservative state, and that state would see some of the worst negative impacts of such a drastic increase. The Democratic leadership, including Biden, understands all of this. They know a progressive would never win in WV, so Manchin is the best Democrat they can get.

    Manchin has stated he supports an increase to $11, which is something that some GOP members would get behind. Do you think the Democratic party is willing to give up their majority over the difference? Nope.

  15. #6095
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It would go over well in his state
    Are you sure about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  16. #6096
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, I am sure... just like gun control is a loser for Democrats, even though a supposed majority supports it.

    We have long found that what people claim to support, still turns into a huge problem come election day.

    The issue is who votes, and how energized they are as voters. Remember when 80% of the people wanted more gun control after Sandy Hook? Nothing came of it, and it was still used as a talking point against Dems.

    I should add:

    Manchin's plan is even more popular...

    https://www.newsweek.com/joe-manchin...licans-1573489
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-03-22 at 02:52 AM.

  17. #6097
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, I am sure... just like gun control is a loser for Democrats, even though a supposed majority supports it.
    Congress is not reflective of majority opinion, and that's besides the point since we were talking about West Virginia specifically.

    Basically you have no evidence to support what you say. Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #6098
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Congress is not reflective of majority opinion, and that's besides the point since we were talking about West Virginia specifically.

    Basically you have no evidence to support what you say. Lol.
    I provided it:

    https://www.newsweek.com/joe-manchin...licans-1573489

    Looks like Manchin wins.

  19. #6099
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I provided it
    That's nice dear, I wasn't asking about the federal aggregate opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #6100
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    That's nice dear, I wasn't asking about the federal aggregate opinion.
    Once again, it shows that Manchin's plan is more popular, and he has GOP support, as well.

    Looks like Manchin wins, and Biden will probably go along with it.

    Either that, or nothing happens.

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