1. #6401
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Uh, yeah, why didn't you actually repeat the entire paragraph?




    Strawmen hyperbole are strawmen hyperbole. The fact that you're using this is an argument means that you know you don't actually have a real argument, so... thanks?
    He's the one who said increasing the minimum wage creates jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    > Nearly all Swedish citizens belong to one of about 60 trade unions and 50 employers' organizations that negotiate wage rates for regular hourly work, salaries, and overtime. The minimum wage tends to hover near 60% to 70% of the average wage in Sweden.

    > Once again, trade unions take care of ensuring that workers are paid a reasonable wage and seem to be doing a fine job of it, keeping the average minimum wage across industries at a healthy $20 per hour.

    > Employees in Iceland are automatically enrolled in trade unions, which are responsible for negotiating baseline salaries for the industries they represent.

    > Norway is yet another northern nation that has eschewed a federally mandated minimum wage in favor of having union-negotiated wages set by industry.

    > However, Switzerland also relies heavily on trade unions and employee organizations to negotiate fair wages for each industry, meaning 90% of the Swiss earn more than the proposed minimum anyway.

    I wonder what the common factor here is.
    Great, I fully support the use of unions.

  2. #6402
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Great, I fully support the use of unions.
    No, you don't. Because unions require legal protections against being busted, and you don't like regulation on business.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  3. #6403
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No you don't. Because unions require legal protections against being busted, and you don't like regulation on business.
    Now you are telling me what I support? Weird.

  4. #6404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Now you are telling me what I support? Weird.
    You have already told us plenty of times what your attitudes to government and regulation are.

    Both of those things things are necessary components in ensuring unions are effective as a means of wage negotiation in the absence of minimum wage laws. So when you say "we can get on fine without minimum wage like Germany", what you're calling for is even stronger regulations than would exist under a hiked minimum wage.

    Pardon me if I find that laughably contradictory and couched in ignorance of other countries.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  5. #6405
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You have already told us plenty of times what your attitudes to government and regulation are.

    Both of those things things are necessary components in ensuring unions are effective as a means of wage negotiation in the absence of minimum wage laws. So when you say "we can get on fine without minimum wage like Germany", what you're calling for is even stronger regulations than would exist under a hiked minimum wage.

    Pardon me if I find that laughably contradictory.
    You are claiming I don't support something I just said I supported.

    You really should stop lying.

  6. #6406
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Some countries do just fine with no forced minimum wage.
    As others have said? Such as?

    And also remember that ones with strong UNIONS make that unneeded as their collective bargaining power sets that minimum wage for them. So if you mention them, you are admitting it is needed by some force stronger than the individual or the fabled free market to set it.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  7. #6407
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You are claiming I don't support something I just said I supported.
    And I'm claiming what you said is a lie based on the positions you've supported previously. Shocker.

    Doesn't change you saying "we don't need minimum wage" and then pointing to highly regulated labor markets as a evidence, lol.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  8. #6408
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    As others have said? Such as?

    And also remember that ones with strong UNIONS make that unneeded as their collective bargaining power sets that minimum wage for them. So if you mention them, you are admitting it is needed by some force stronger than the individual or the fabled free market to set it.
    It was provided.

    I support unions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And I'm claiming what you said is a lie based on the positions you've supported previously. Shocker.
    Well, my claims state otherwise. You were refuted before you even lied.

  9. #6409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I support unions.
    Why unions, but not minimum wage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Well, my claims state otherwise. You were refuted before you even lied.
    No, actually, pretty sure I qualified that you weren't allowed to use countries with strong union protections as evidence because it makes no sense opposing minimum wage while also supporting a union-dominated labor market.

    Unless of course one happens to hold the moronic belief that because government is mandating the wage as opposed to a government backed union, it's different somehow.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  10. #6410
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Why unions, but not minimum wage.

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    No, actually, pretty sure I qualified that you weren't allowed to use countries with strong union protections as evidence because it makes no sense opposing minimum wage while also supporting a union-dominated labor market.
    So, you want to move goalposts and whine... weird.

    You don't get to make the rules.

    Unions are simply an act of voluntary collective bargaining, which I fully support.

  11. #6411
    @Machismo

    And whether you support unions or not, the fact of the matter is that unions are effectively dead in America for the working class outside of the police so you can't rely on them to negotiate that wage, which still puts you back to needing the government to fill that need until Unions are back with enough power to fill it instead, which won't be for decades to a century from now given all the damage done to them by the "No regulation" fuck ups.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  12. #6412
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's great... unless you're that 2% who loses their jobs...
    And yet you still can't read that it wasn't 2%, it was "maybe 0.5%". And perhaps those "maybe 0.5%" were working two jobs before but now only need to work one, so hurray for them!

    You're holding on to a whole lotta nothing here.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  13. #6413
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It was provided.

    I support unions.
    Great, you provided proof that you couldn't find a place succeeding without a minimum wage of some sort, think you. And you can support the unions but until they are strong enough to do their jobs, the government will need to do it instead. Just like the government was needed to protect the unions to give the workers that bargaining power to begin with.

    Sorry but, government regulations are a necessity in the labor market, like it or not.
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  14. #6414
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    @Machismo

    And whether you support unions or not, the fact of the matter is that unions are effectively dead in America for the working class outside of the police so you can't rely on them to negotiate that wage, which still puts you back to needing the government to fill that need until Unions are back with enough power to fill it instead, which won't be for decades to a century from now given all the damage done to them by the "No regulation" fuck ups.
    Well, only buy products from companies that employ union staff.

    Problem solved.

  15. #6415
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Unions are simply an act of voluntary collective bargaining, which I fully support.
    And what's the difference between workers voluntarily bargaining collectively through a union versus workers voluntarily bargaining collectively through a political party, exactly.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  16. #6416
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Great, you provided proof that you couldn't find a place succeeding without a minimum wage of some sort, think you. And you can support the unions but until they are strong enough to do their jobs, the government will need to do it instead. Just like the government was needed to protect the unions to give the workers that bargaining power to begin with.

    Sorry but, government regulations are a necessity in the labor market, like it or not.
    I literally provided multiple countries.

    Enjoy!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And what's the difference between workers voluntarily bargaining collectively through a union versus workers voluntarily bargaining collectively through a political party, exactly.
    When the force of government is used.

    It's not that complicated.

  17. #6417
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    When the force of government is used.
    They're different because reasons, got it. Lol.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  18. #6418
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Well, only buy products from companies that employ union staff.

    Problem solved.
    Cop out given.....

    You know that doesn't work because it takes an educated and informed populace, and judging by the number of Trump supporters, we ain't got it.

    And even if we had a more educated populace than even in the history of this nation, that still wouldn't happen due to all the different companies it would take to research on, along with all the ones they deal with as they try and outsource it to others to avoid that negative stigma while pretending they didn't know when caught.

    And that doesn't even get into the concept of monopolies where you really don't have other options.

    Can you please get out of fantasy land and return to reality. Your policies are massively damaging to the nation and the populace as a whole when implemented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I literally provided multiple countries.

    Enjoy!!!.
    You provided multiple countries with strong unions, which we don't have.... Now try again.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  19. #6419
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    When the force of government is used.

    It's not that complicated.
    Force of government was used to abolish slavery.

    Would you have preferred people instead chose just buy products from shops that don't employ slavery? Problem solved?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  20. #6420
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    They're different because reasons, got it. Lol.
    Yes, one is a guy with a gun, telling you to do it, or he will soot you in the fucking face.

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