1. #6601
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    It Was Capitalism All Along
    Posts
    54,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, at what point does it stop being beneficial to raise the minimum wage?
    No idea, but it's not particularly relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Now, for a business whose payroll costs were 35%... that puts it at 18-19% increase.
    Why should the working class have to subsidise shitty business models that can't sustain a wage hike? Lul.

    Sounds like coercion to me.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  2. #6602
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It's absolutely relevant. if you are going to say it's beneficial, and you are the one who wants to fucking force it, then you sure as shit better to be able to show your work.

    The burden falls on those who wish to force such change.

  3. #6603
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Where did I say it would double their prices?

    As I pointed out, McDonald's can absorb costs far better than small businesses, because they have the scale and flexibility that others do not.

    At that rate, it would raise their costs by 8-9%, based on that very simple interpretation. Now, for a business whose payroll costs were 35%... that puts it at 18-19% increase.
    Then you also know that the smaller places aren’t going to pay the increased prices right away, their stuff kicks in months to a year later after the increase in wages the others have kicked in and created a corresponding increase in consumer spending and demand to offset it.

    Leaving your argument moot in that regard.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  4. #6604
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No idea, but it's not particularly relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why should the working class have to subsidise shitty business models that can't sustain a wage hike? Lul.

    Sounds like coercion to me.
    "Why should I care if you cannot survive me taking 15% more of your income..."

    On that note, why the fuck should people care if you aren't earning enough? If you don't care about them, then why the hell should they give a shit about you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Then you also know that the smaller places aren’t going to pay the increased prices right away, their stuff kicks in months to a year later after the increase in wages the others have kicked in and created a corresponding increase in consumer spending and demand to offset it.

    Leaving your argument moot in that regard.
    And that creates an unbalanced playing field, and it's even more unbalanced based on locality. Let's not forget, this all stems from people bitching that senators and congressmen are not on board, because they feel it will hurt their districts and states.

    It's not moot at all.

    Oh, are you going to admit I never said it would double their prices?

  5. #6605
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    It Was Capitalism All Along
    Posts
    54,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's absolutely relevant. if you are going to say it's beneficial, and you are the one who wants to fucking force it, then you sure as shit better to be able to show your work.
    No one's advocating for a $100 dollar minimum wage, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    "Why should I care if you cannot survive me taking 15% more of your income..."
    Their income?

    Sweaty, money they owe to their employees is not their income.

    On that note, why the fuck should people care if you aren't earning enough? If you don't care about them, then why the hell should they give a shit about you?
    Because poverty is generally harmful in a way that not being able to afford a second yacht isn't.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  6. #6606
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No one's advocating for a $100 dollar minimum wage, though.
    Why not? If increasing the minimum wage is such a great thing, then why stop at $15 an hour?

    It seems rather arbitrary to put it at that amount... almost as if it's nothing more than a political number, and not actually based on anything concrete.

    So, $100 an hour it is.

  7. #6607
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    5,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Seattle is a wealthy city, and it did happen to some degree. Some businesses suffered, and many people simply opted to work less hours, instead of actually making more money.

    There's also a huge difference in median income when compared to somewhere like West Virginia. You have a personal median income that is about $24k more than WV, so the change will be far more drastic there.

    To put it in perspective, that would mean shifting the Seattle minimum wage to about...$29 an hour.
    Seattle is not "old-money". The average household income has grown some 70% in the last 10 years. And we've already had minimum wage increase. It's gone from $9/hr in 2014 to $16.39/hr in 2021. Why would Seattle nearly double... after already nearly doubling?


    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, they will be hit, they will lose spending power, and not see an increase in salary like others are getting.
    I completely acknowledged that they'd be hit, but your characterization of hit "very hard" is utter bullshit. Try reading better next time?


    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Those increased costs have to go somewhere. Employers will feel them, consumers will feel them.
    And yet by and large the majority of consumers will see a proportionally larger increase in income. You keep ignoring this because the truth undermines your position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    As we saw in Seattle, many were simply working less hours, not actually working the same to increase their own income.
    Some will, yes. Especially short-term. But not the majority, and not long-term. The facts don't back you up on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The problem is that not everyone's income will increase... which is the problem. It's awesome for the people whose salaries just went up. It sucks for all those above minimum wage whose income did not.
    Like I said, I literally lived that reality. And it sucked. But my situation was hardly worse, proportionately, than the massive improvements made to the much, much larger portion of the population.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  8. #6608
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No one's advocating for a $100 dollar minimum wage, though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Their income?

    Sweaty, money they owe to their employees is not their income.



    Because poverty is generally harmful in a way that not being able to afford a second yacht isn't.
    Why are you calling someone sweaty? I'm not perspiring.

    It's the employers' money, you want to force them to give up more.

  9. #6609
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    5,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Here's the problem that people don't get... if this suddenly made everything better, then why not increase the minimum wage even more? If forcing people to earn more is the solution, then make them earn far more.

    So, if this is the solution, then raise it to $100 an hour.
    I said it before: if you're engaging in strawman hyperbole, then you know you have no actual, meaningful argument.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  10. #6610
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Seattle is not "old-money". The average household income has grown some 70% in the last 10 years. And we've already had minimum wage increase. It's gone from $9/hr in 2014 to $16.39/hr in 2021. Why would Seattle nearly double... after already nearly doubling?



    I completely acknowledged that they'd be hit, but your characterization of hit "very hard" is utter bullshit. Try reading better next time?



    And yet by and large the majority of consumers will see a proportionally larger increase in income. You keep ignoring this because the truth undermines your position.



    Some will, yes. Especially short-term. But not the majority, and not long-term. The facts don't back you up on this.



    Like I said, I literally lived that reality. And it sucked. But my situation was hardly worse, proportionately, than the massive improvements made to the much, much larger portion of the population.
    As compared to a state with a much lower median income, like West Virginia. That's relevant, because that's where Manchin is... and it's why he opposes it.

    They would be hit very hard, and I'm not going to force that on them. It was great of those politicians to oppose it. The Democrats know they would lose huge in the next election if they pushed it through.

    WV has a median personal income of about $25k, which well below the proposed minimum wage of a full-time employee.

    That's why it's a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I said it before: if you're engaging in strawman hyperbole, then you know you have no actual, meaningful argument.
    This isn't a straw man.

    You guys are claiming that raising the minimum wage is a good thing, so why not raise the shit out of it?

    That's because we understand it has very serious diminishing returns, and major increases (like it would be for WV) would have a far bigger negative impact on those places. It's exactly why those areas are opposing such a drastic increase.

  11. #6611
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And that creates an unbalanced playing field, and it's even more unbalanced based on locality. Let's not forget, this all stems from people bitching that senators and congressmen are not on board, because they feel it will hurt their districts and states.

    It's not moot at all.

    Oh, are you going to admit I never said it would double their prices?
    Don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect. It is still superior to letting it stand. Your point is moot and relies on flawed logic that hurts all involved across the spectrum which is a far worse outcome.

    As for your quote, you didn't say double, you said "Considerably" which is also objectively false for all but the most extreme situations with most economists putting the national average somewhere between 10-12%.

    I was going by your actual quote of ,"They won't see a net increase in customers, because their prices will have to be raised considerably."

    If you have better option that doesn't screw over the working class and the poor to benefit the few based on failed libertarian logic that doesn't match reality, have at it. But don't pretend the choice between taking a job and dying is a choice, or that having to pay places who perform practices you dislike versus going 80+ miles each way just to get food or gas is a realistic choice when it isn't.

    So, what alternative do you have that doesn't screw these people or the nation as a whole even harder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually, I have an idea. 1 second.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  12. #6612
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    It Was Capitalism All Along
    Posts
    54,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Why not? If increasing the minimum wage is such a great thing, then why stop at $15 an hour?
    Because that argument is fallacious.

    The point is that there's no evidence that the wage thresholds being advocated for would cause the economic apocalypse you're whinging about and a lot of evidence that it would help a whole lot of people. Y'all just seem to be convinced it will be this slippery slope where the government would end up redistributing all the wealth, which is just more Red Scare bullshit manifesting on your part, lol.

    When people start advocating for 100 dollar an hour minimum wages then you can ask them for their evidence. Until then your arguments will continue to remain fallacious and silly.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  13. #6613
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Because that argument is fallacious.

    The point is that there's no evidence that the wage thresholds being advocated for would cause the economic apocalypse you're whinging about and a lot of evidence that it would help a whole lot of people. Y'all just seem to be convinced it will be this slippery slope where the government would end up redistributing all the wealth, which is just more Red Scare bullshit manifesting on your part, lol.

    When people start advocating for 100 dollar an hour minimum wages then you can ask them for their evidence. Until then your arguments will continue to remain fallacious and silly.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53086723
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  14. #6614
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect. It is still superior to letting it stand. Your point is moot and relies on flawed logic that hurts all involved across the spectrum which is a far worse outcome.

    As for your quote, you didn't say double, you said "Considerably" which is also objectively false for all but the most extreme situations with most economists putting the national average somewhere between 10-12%.

    I was going by your actual quote of ,"They won't see a net increase in customers, because their prices will have to be raised considerably."

    If you have better option that doesn't screw over the working class and the poor to benefit the few based on failed libertarian logic that doesn't match reality, have at it. But don't pretend the choice between taking a job and dying is a choice, or that having to pay places who perform practices you dislike versus going 80+ miles each way just to get food or gas is a realistic choice when it isn't.

    So, what alternative do you have that doesn't screw these people or the nation as a whole even harder.
    Here's the problem, $15 an hour is fucking arbitrary... it was simply a political slogan. It was a number grabbed from the ether, and people ran with it.

    Thanks for admitting I never said it would double the cost. I'm glad we got that bullshit narrative out of the way.

    I do have a better option, localize it. Choose unions over forced increases. Use consumer advocacy to push it without the need of government.

    I'm not the one who wants to screw over others, that's you guys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Because that argument is fallacious.

    The point is that there's no evidence that the wage thresholds being advocated for would cause the economic apocalypse you're whinging about and a lot of evidence that it would help a whole lot of people. Y'all just seem to be convinced it will be this slippery slope where the government would end up redistributing all the wealth, which is just more Red Scare bullshit manifesting on your part, lol.

    When people start advocating for 100 dollar an hour minimum wages then you can ask them for their evidence. Until then your arguments will continue to remain fallacious and silly.
    It's your fucking argument. if you are going to argue it's better, then let's do even more "better" and raise it to $100 an hour.

    Let's fucking do it.

    Call Biden.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am staying on topic.

    This is about people complaining about Biden and others not jumping to increase the minimum wage.

    This is the Biden thread. What incentive does Biden have to sign such a bill? What incentive do the Democrats have to even allow it to hit his desk?

  15. #6615
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    It Was Capitalism All Along
    Posts
    54,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's your fucking argument.
    I'm not arguing for a 100 dollar minimum wage, stop strawmanning. Lol.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  16. #6616
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I'm not arguing for a 100 dollar minimum wage, stop strawmanning. Lol.
    If you are arguing it's better, I'm simply offering you "more better."

    Why do you want to make working-class people suffer? See, I'm now using your own argument against you.

    If you want them to make more, then demand Biden sign something that allows them to be making even more!!!

  17. #6617
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    It Was Capitalism All Along
    Posts
    54,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If you are arguing it's better, I'm simply offering you "more better."
    Nah, you're just repeating "if this wage increase is good then all wage increases must be good" (as if anyone but yourself is making that argument) and then demanding others refute a point they didn't make.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  18. #6618
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Nah, you're just repeating "if this wage increase is good then all wage increases must be good" as if anyone but yourself is making that argument and then demanding others refute it.
    You guys want a bigger increase for Biden to sign, so let's give them an even bigger increase.

    I've offered to support a $100 an hour minimum wage, why are you not on board?

  19. #6619
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    5,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    As compared to a state with a much lower median income, like West Virginia. That's relevant, because that's where Manchin is... and it's why he opposes it.

    They would be hit very hard, and I'm not going to force that on them. It was great of those politicians to oppose it. The Democrats know they would lose huge in the next election if they pushed it through.
    Or, you know, they wouldn't be hit hard, and would actually improve more than others as a result, but are being held back by hide-bound myopia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    This isn't a straw man.

    You guys are claiming that raising the minimum wage is a good thing, so why not raise the shit out of it?
    It's absolutely a strawman because nobody is suggesting that it's a good thing to raise it ad infinitum.

    You raise the minimum wage to bring low-income households out of poverty. You don't increase it so that they can afford jets. If spoon-feeding your baby is beneficial, why don't you continue to spoon-feed your kids til you die? Because the idea is to help even the playing field at least enough so that nobody starves, then you let people take care of themselves from there.

    Again, what a spectacularly stupid strawman you're tilting at. It just underscores your failed argument.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  20. #6620
    @Elegiac @PhaelixWW
    I created a second thread to take the Machismo derailment to so he can continue the discussion without littering this page with him talking in circles.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •