1. #6621
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You guys want a bigger increase for Biden to sign, so let's give them an even bigger increase.

    I've offered to support a $100 an hour minimum wage, why are you not on board?
    Then you're welcome to provide evidence that's a good target in the same way the people advocating for $15 have provided more than sufficient evidence, sweaty. Stop being lazy and asking me to argue your points for you.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  2. #6622
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If you are arguing it's better, I'm simply offering you "more better."

    Why do you want to make working-class people suffer? See, I'm now using your own argument against you.

    If you want them to make more, then demand Biden sign something that allows them to be making even more!!!
    Losing 20 lbs is good for someone 20lbs overweight, losing 120 is not. Your “argument” is as silly as the idea that all roads should he privatized.

  3. #6623
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Or, you know, they wouldn't be hit hard, and would actually improve more than others as a result, but are being held back by hide-bound myopia.



    It's absolutely a strawman because nobody is suggesting that it's a good thing to raise it ad infinitum.

    You raise the minimum wage to bring low-income households out of poverty. You don't increase it so that they can afford jets. If spoon-feeding your baby is beneficial, why don't you continue to spoon-feed your kids til you die? Because the idea is to help even the playing field at least enough so that nobody starves, then you let people take care of themselves from there.

    Again, what a spectacularly stupid strawman you're tilting at. It just underscores your failed argument.
    Poorer areas would be hit harder, places like West Virginia.

    I've said I'll support $100 an hour minimum wage, are you guys on board? Why, or why not?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Losing 20 lbs is good for someone 20lbs overweight, losing 120 is not. Your “argument” is as silly as the idea that all roads should he privatized.
    And therein lies the problem, $15 an hour is completely arbitrary, and would impact different areas much differently.

    This is a one-size-fits-all plan that would put the minimum wage far higher than it has ever been in this country, based on inflation.

  4. #6624
    Moving the other side's goalposts just to makee some wild assertion pretty much invalidates the argument of the person making such a move.

    Does someone need a timeout?

  5. #6625
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Moving the other side's goalposts just to makee some wild assertion pretty much invalidates the argument of the person making such a move.

    Does someone need a timeout?
    I said I'd support a $100 minimum wage, let's get Biden to sign it. If it's as beneficial as everyoe is saying, I see no reason to stop at 415 an hour. Let's get the plan to Biden and the Democrats, as soon as possible.

    Are you on board? If not, why?

  6. #6626
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Moving the other side's goalposts just to makee some wild assertion pretty much invalidates the argument of the person making such a move.

    Does someone need a timeout?
    Apparently. It's pretty telling from the way this "well why isn't a hundred dollars an hour okay then" nonsense started the instant his nonsense about Seattle's minimum wage was debunked.

    Obvious gish gallop is obvious.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  7. #6627
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I said I'd support a $100 minimum wage, let's get Biden to sign it.
    Are you on board? If not, why?
    Because that's not the argument.
    But then that's probably because you've already lost it.

  8. #6628
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Apparently. It's pretty telling from the way this "well why isn't a hundred dollars an hour okay then" nonsense started the instant his nonsense about Seattle's minimum wage was debunked.

    Obvious gish gallop is obvious.
    Nope, try again.

    You guys are arguing that forced pay raises are beneficial, I'm simply calling you out on it. If you want Biden to sign a $15 an hour minimum wage, then why not shoot for more?

    Mind you, this all started because people were pissed that Biden and the Democrats couldn't get a few members of their party on board.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Because that's not the argument.
    But then that's probably because you've already lost it.
    This is the argument, minimum wage increases are a benefit, and people are clearly pissed that Biden and the Democratic party are not pushing their moderates hard enough to sign on to it.

  9. #6629
    Guys, lets move all things Machismo to the appropriate thread now that we have one.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  10. #6630
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Guys, lets move all things Machismo to the appropriate thread now that we have one.
    I'm still more than willing to talk about Biden and the rest of the Democrats not acting in lockstep on this thing.

    I haven't derailed it once, because this has always been about them acting at the behest of their constituents, as well as their own political careers.

  11. #6631
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    While we're still in a pandemic, that we're thankfully starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel for? Yeah, actually.



    No, the message is that we're already overwhelmed here. This is an American official speaking for America, not for asylum seekers. There are times where it makes sense to pause or slow things down, like a pandemic. This isn't Trumpian, it's immigration policy.



    I think they one they put out was fine.



    Again. Context. There's a pandemic and another massive surge of unaccompanied minors that they can't even keep up with right now. Saying, "COME ON UP!" isn't gonna help with that.



    Because you seem to assume that it's closed in perpetuity or something. While the common sense read is, "They're closed for now because of course, we're still in a pandemic."



    Because we're in a pandemic and officials are already overwhelmed...so I guess making the situation worse is...better?
    You're ignoring again exactly what these people are fleeing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  12. #6632
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You're ignoring again exactly what these people are fleeing.
    Is this an argument that the treatment at the border is superior to anything they are fleeing?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #6633
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Is this an argument that the treatment at the border is superior to anything they are fleeing?
    Keep up.

    I was speaking about messaging and how this doesn't sound like a good message.

    The phrase "the border is closed" is not one that should be said by anyone in this administration given Trump. Don't strawman.

    The messaging isn't great when you're speaking to people, many of them that are fleeing deathly situations. The media made a big stink during the Trump era when people were sent back or denied and those people then ended up dead or sold into sex slavery.

    How quick some people are to forget the extent of the issue...

    "by golly, I don't think saying "our border is closed don't come is bad messaging for our president."

    Perhaps not, if we ignore Trump saying to close the border and turning people away which caused an uproar. It also requires one to ignore the dangerous state of affairs in those asylum seeker's countries. "border closed don't come" ignores those very real issues. Hence why it is poor messaging...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  14. #6634
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The phrase "the border is closed" is not one that should be said by anyone in this administration given Trump. Don't strawman.
    During a pandemic when the border is already overwhelmed with unaccompanied minors...not really? I mean, context my dude. It matters a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The messaging isn't great when you're speaking to people, many of them that are fleeing deathly situations. The media made a big stink during the Trump era when people were sent back or denied and those people then ended up dead or sold into sex slavery.
    Because the context was wildly different. Context. Matters.

  15. #6635
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    During a pandemic when the border is already overwhelmed with unaccompanied minors...not really? I mean, context my dude. It matters a lot.



    Because the context was wildly different. Context. Matters.
    Does it? During the pandemic all through until Biden took his place, there was outrage over sending away migrants. I don't recall many from the left saying "no actually what Trump is doing, in this case, is needed"
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  16. #6636
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    What incentive do they have to cave? They live in red states in districts that would easily go to a Republican if the Democratic party pushed too hard against them.

    A $15 minimum wage in West Virginia would be a crushing blow to many small towns, because prices would go up, and businesses would close. West Virginia is dead fucking last in the United States in median income, so they would see the biggest negative impact to this.
    Manchin is a democrat is he not? Imagine he just delays the bill for months over 15$ minimum wage. How do you think that would go over?

  17. #6637
    Quote Originally Posted by Selvari7 View Post
    Manchin is a democrat is he not? Imagine he just delays the bill for months over 15$ minimum wage. How do you think that would go over?
    It would go over well in his state, and he's not the only one.

    In the end, he's a moderate in a conservative state, and that state would see some of the worst negative impacts of such a drastic increase. The Democratic leadership, including Biden, understands all of this. They know a progressive would never win in WV, so Manchin is the best Democrat they can get.

    Manchin has stated he supports an increase to $11, which is something that some GOP members would get behind. Do you think the Democratic party is willing to give up their majority over the difference? Nope.

  18. #6638
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It would go over well in his state
    Are you sure about that?
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  19. #6639
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, I am sure... just like gun control is a loser for Democrats, even though a supposed majority supports it.

    We have long found that what people claim to support, still turns into a huge problem come election day.

    The issue is who votes, and how energized they are as voters. Remember when 80% of the people wanted more gun control after Sandy Hook? Nothing came of it, and it was still used as a talking point against Dems.

    I should add:

    Manchin's plan is even more popular...

    https://www.newsweek.com/joe-manchin...licans-1573489
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-03-22 at 02:52 AM.

  20. #6640
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, I am sure... just like gun control is a loser for Democrats, even though a supposed majority supports it.
    Congress is not reflective of majority opinion, and that's besides the point since we were talking about West Virginia specifically.

    Basically you have no evidence to support what you say. Lol.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

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