1. #7341
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    whats the difference between "fuck democrats because we are morally superior, they won't let us do what we want" and "fuck republicans because we are morally superior, they won't let us do what we want"?

    oh and so after all's said and done, who's going to put down the (figurative) gun first?
    Here’s Mtg saying she opposes the green new deal without having read it:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/mtg-...eads-it-2021-4

    Here’s Kevin McCarty LYING about Biden’s environmental plans, even after they were debunked:
    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/04/29/p...nds/index.html

    OTOH

    Here’s Stacy Abrams saying exactly what is wrong with the Georgia voting Bill:

    https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/stace...102628187.html

    Both sides are NOT the same.

  2. #7342
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    well except that people have been saying that.
    What people? In what context? Or are these "people are saying that" in the Trumpian sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i've never said the problem lies with the democrats. the dems need to cultivate more liz cheney's (so to speak) if they want to change the situation as it won't resolve itself.
    So...not their problem...but they need to provide the solution? How exactly are they supposed to do that? Go out and campaign for moderate Republicans instead of like...their own candidates?

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    like whats the end goal here? pretend repubs don't exist until they magically go away or start agreeing?
    Don't allow Republicans to hamstring the normal operation of the government and the hugely important work that needs to be done. Continue to ignore and work around them until they want to get a piece of the action as well and are willing to start coming to the bargaining table in good faith.

    You're continually advocating for Democrats to voluntarily let themselves be taken hostage by a bunch of extremists dude. You may not think you are, but you like, very much are.

  3. #7343
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    well, saying "its purely a republican problem so we should take no part or make no effort to help them resolve it. sooner or later they'll come to their senses!" only led to further radicalization. dems mistake prior was thinking public backlash would be enough. it wasn't.
    we know that there are still elements within the party that seek to escape trumpism. those should be strengthened instead of the radical part.

    heres a little tidbit of history:
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...rticle/570832/

    i see a lot of this same rhetoric from many alleged "leftists". "we should have power at any costs because we are morally in the right" is the exact same thing repubs were thinking when they went down that road.

    - - - Updated - - -

    i am "wringing my hands" that we should be working to repair government institutions. yea repubs are bad. dems doing their same tactics won't solve what led to the current situation because "everyone will be so happy with what the dems do that they'll suddenly stop being racist" or whatever.
    What same tactics, exactly? Democrats governing responsibly and legislating the Democratic agenda they ran on and were elected for is not the same as a hive of enraged paranoid death cult bees masquerading as a political party trying to overthrow democracy because reality is frustrating and means coping with brown people also having rights under the Constitution. There's no "both sides'ing" this, and under no circumstances should Republicans (continue to) be rewarded or otherwise coddled for their outright hostility to representative democracy and the rule of law, where to them "American" mostly means whiteness, though they're willing to provisionally accommodate those of any race as long as they, too, are committed to preserving the racial order through anti-democratic means and minoritarianism. What's the middle ground there? And it's not like Democrats haven't tried your approach for decades--in fact, humoring this particular iteration of white supremacist reactionaries has not worked out great so far, but we don't need everyone to be happy with what the Dems do, and the metric of success isn't whether they suddenly stop being racist, because that's ridiculous. Democrats have a vision for a more just and more humane America, and they won the House, Senate, and the WH because of it--of course they should be legislating their agenda. Democrats aren't boxing Republicans out of power (as Republicans have been doing to Democrats since at least the 80s)--Republicans are invited to participate in good faith, but if you're saying even that is too high a bar? Then, I mean, yeah, tough shit.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  4. #7344
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    Here’s Mtg saying she opposes the green new deal without having read it:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/mtg-...eads-it-2021-4

    Here’s Kevin McCarty LYING about Biden’s environmental plans, even after they were debunked:
    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/04/29/p...nds/index.html

    OTOH

    Here’s Stacy Abrams saying exactly what is wrong with the Georgia voting Bill:

    https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/stace...102628187.html

    Both sides are NOT the same.
    they aren't, lets keep it that way by not adopting repub tactics.

  5. #7345
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    they aren't, lets keep it that way by not adopting repub tactics.
    Democrats aren't, so you have nothing to worry about.

  6. #7346
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    they aren't, lets keep it that way by not adopting repub tactics.
    Your "both sides" attempts seem to keep failing.

  7. #7347
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's been a while since we last had a First Cat, I think Socks was the last one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Yea, I'm psyched to see a First Cat again.
    It truly brings me joy, I hope there are fun postcards of him like Tama the Train Conductor.
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  8. #7348
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    It truly brings me joy, I hope there are fun postcards of him like Tama the Train Conductor.
    Oh it would be so nice. Japanese animals are somehow almost always way cuter. I just want some White House holiday cards with the first pets and shit.

  9. #7349
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What people? In what context? Or are these "people are saying that" in the Trumpian sense?
    theres several in this very thread including yourself going "bipartisanship is dead and should be ignored, republicans should be shut out of legislation", etc.

    So...not their problem...but they need to provide the solution? How exactly are they supposed to do that? Go out and campaign for moderate Republicans instead of like...their own candidates?
    no? they need to cultivate connections with the other party and provide incentives for cooperation (see the earmarks you roundly dismissed). which is already happening. they aren't going "fuck republicans, bipartisanship is dead."
    Don't allow Republicans to hamstring the normal operation of the government and the hugely important work that needs to be done. Continue to ignore and work around them until they want to get a piece of the action as well and are willing to start coming to the bargaining table in good faith.
    whens that gonna happen?
    You're continually advocating for Democrats to voluntarily let themselves be taken hostage by a bunch of extremists dude. You may not think you are, but you like, very much are.
    in what way is the normal legislative process "holding hostage"? in that case every party is held hostage every time they don't get exactly what they want.

  10. #7350
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post

    in what way is the normal legislative process "holding hostage"? in that case every party is held hostage every time they don't get exactly what they want.
    Indeed. I would ask you that same question.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  11. #7351
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    theres several in this very thread including yourself going "bipartisanship is dead and should be ignored, republicans should be shut out of legislation", etc.
    Quote some so we can see the context. Are they saying that blanket? Is it conditional? Permanent? Temporary?

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    no? they need to cultivate connections with the other party and provide incentives for cooperation (see the earmarks you roundly dismissed). which is already happening. they aren't going "fuck republicans, bipartisanship is dead."
    Earmarks are hardly a clarion call for bipartisanship as both parties have selfish motivations for wanting them back.

    Are Democrats not cultivating relationships with Republicans when they can? Do you have evidence to show this?

    Should Democrats even try to cultivate relationships with people like say, Mo Brooks or Ted Cruz who cheerleaded on and are still actively whitewashing the attempt of Trump supporters to break into the Capitol building to literally kill them?

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    whens that gonna happen?
    What, getting shit done? About nowish, much to the chagrin of Republicans.

    When will Republicans come back to the bargaining table? I don't know, I can't predict the future. But that's a "Republican problem", not one for me or Democrats. If they want to continue to voluntarily remove themselves from the process Democrats can't force them back, nor should they.

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    in what way is the normal legislative process "holding hostage"? in that case every party is held hostage every time they don't get exactly what they want.
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/08/polit...tes/index.html

    Literally causing delays and problems just to cause delays and problems. Not because they objected to the bills, not because they had compelling reasons, but literally just to interrupt the normal process of governance.

    And flaccid Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy refuses to bring his caucus in line, which isn't surprising given that he's standing by Matt Gaetz even in light of the compelling evidence that he very likely did pay for sex, and with under-age girls, and his continued attempts to whitewash the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

    It's continuing the trend from former Speaker Boehner and former Speaker Ryan, neither of whom could exert any control over the extremist wings of their caucus in the House (McConnel seems to have more control when it matters, but largely gives his members a much broader leash to say and do insane things without repercussion) and are directly responsible for the supercharging of the extremism of the Republican party in the Legislature.

  12. #7352
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    they aren't, lets keep it that way by not adopting repub tactics.
    Ok so one side refuses to negotiate, and is wallowing in ignorance and repeating debunked lies.

    The other side has a clear plan and is dealing with facts.

    One side is holding everything up.

    What’s your solution?

  13. #7353
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Indeed. I would ask you that same question.
    i'm a bit confused. were the repubs held hostage every time the dems demanded a change as the minority?

    lets take this example; repubs have a slim majority in congress. all obstacles to the ruling party have been eliminated. the vote to officially ban trans kids in sports passes along party lines and is rubberstamped by the repub president. the conservative supreme court upholds it.

    this is progress?

  14. #7354
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    this is progress?
    No, that is a bad faith argument.

  15. #7355
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    No, that is a bad faith argument.
    because why?

  16. #7356
    Old God AntiFascistVoter's Avatar
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    A Senate committee has approved Biden’s THREE nominees to the USPS board.



    Hopefully DeJoy will find himself out of a job and soon.

  17. #7357
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    because why?
    Democrats have, quite literally, exactly what you state in your hypothetical - a slim majority in the House/Senate and the White House. Even if the filibuster was removed for the current Democratic legislature, they still wouldn't get things like the Green New Deal or Medicare for all passed. Why? Because that thin majority comes with a whole lot of "problems" for those more "radical" positions.

    All it takes is one John McCain or one Joe Manchin.

  18. #7358
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Democrats have, quite literally, exactly what you state in your hypothetical - a slim majority in the House/Senate and the White House. Even if the filibuster was removed for the current Democratic legislature, they still wouldn't get things like the Green New Deal or Medicare for all passed. Why? Because that thin majority comes with a whole lot of "problems" for those more "radical" positions.

    All it takes is one John McCain or one Joe Manchin.
    oh you mean those relics of the bygone age, the bipartisans. indeed. who "both sides" currently seek to eliminate.

    "fuck bipartisanship, we don't need them!"

  19. #7359
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    how are you going to get shit done in 2 yrs when dems lose their slim majority and the repubs have lost any moderating force?
    Republicans haven't had any "moderating force" since Bush 2.0. Ever since Obama won, they have gone full racist and full partisan.

  20. #7360
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i'm a bit confused. were the repubs held hostage every time the dems demanded a change as the minority?

    lets take this example; repubs have a slim majority in congress. all obstacles to the ruling party have been eliminated. the vote to officially ban trans kids in sports passes along party lines and is rubberstamped by the repub president. the conservative supreme court upholds it.

    this is progress?
    I'm agreeing with you that normal legislative process / not getting your way is not holding anyone hostage. I personally don't consider your hypothetical progress, no, any more than I considered Citizens United to be progress, but the system currently has means of redress, means that Republicans are actively trying to hobble all over the country. The filibuster didn't protect us from a 6-3 court of unusually partisan religious conservatives because McConnell did away with it as long he needed, and then put it back in (and broke a variety of norms along the way as well).
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

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