Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Edge-]

oh you mean those relics of the bygone age, the bipartisans. indeed. who "both sides" currently seek to eliminate.

"fuck bipartisanship, we don't need them!"

That's not...I don't think you seem to actually know what bipartisanship is.

[postman1782]

they aren't, lets keep it that way by not adopting repub tactics.

What tactics would those be? The Democratic party worked with Republicans during Trump to at least attempt to help people, even proposing bills that would have helped every American, but they wouldn't vote on the Judges that didn't have any fucking experience even trying a case, or were too radical to be there, like Coney Barrett. Republicans don't care about ANYONE but themselves. They aren't even REMOTELY the same.

[starlord]

I'm agreeing with you that normal legislative process / not getting your way is not holding anyone hostage. I personally don't consider your hypothetical progress, no, any more than I considered Citizens United to be progress, but the system currently has means of redress, means that Republicans are actively trying to hobble all over the country. The filibuster didn't protect us from a 6-3 court of unusually partisan religious conservatives because McConnell did away with it as long he needed, and then put it back in (and broke a variety of norms along the way as well).

a large part of that was due to certain senate "rules and procedures" not actually being codified, which seems like an easy fix.

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That's not...I don't think you seem to actually know what bipartisanship is.

well then seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too with shutting repubs out then hoping there will be bipartisan ones left whenever they gain power.

[Shadowferal]

oh you mean those relics of the bygone age, the bipartisans. indeed. who "both sides" currently seek to eliminate. "fuck bipartisanship, we don't need them!"

What does it take to get through to you that the GOP is now the party of Trump, whose slogan can be said to be "my way, or now way?"

And name all of those GOPers that are moderate.

[Edge-]

well then seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too with shutting repubs out then hoping there will be bipartisan ones left whenever they gain power.

Lone members bucking the rest of the party isn't an act of bipartisanship, my dude. Like, you don't appear to have any understanding of what you're actually talking about.

Which is actually kinda like, a perfect analogy for the Republican party right now.

[starlord]

Lone members bucking the rest of the party isn't an act of bipartisanship, my dude. Like, you don't appear to have any understanding of what you're actually talking about.

Which is actually kinda like, a perfect analogy for the Republican party right now.

those "lone members" were once a lot more numerous, and they don't buck the party unless they stand to gain some tit for tat. thats kinda how congress used to operate.

[Shadowferal]

those "lone members" were once a lot more numerous, and they don't buck the party unless they stand to gain some tit for tat. thats kinda how congress used to operate.

Christ..it's like arguing with a libertarian.

[Levelfive]

a large part of that was due to certain senate "rules and procedures" not actually being codified, which seems like an easy fix.

It was because in the Senate, the majority can change the rules with 51 votes, like for confirming a SC nominee, and then presto changeo, it's back for legislation. IIRC Lindsey Graham passed Coney-Barrett out of committee without even a quorum. I doubt it would be an easy fix, but who knows. My point was more that the "normal legislative process" is...legislating. The Republicans are not required to filibuster everything in the hopes they can then blame Democrats for not getting anything done; 50 Republicans don't *have* to refuse to work with Democrats because stagnation is a political calculation--we could keep the filibuster, which is not "normal legislative process," and still return to normal legislative process where a majority can pass legislation.

[starlord]

Christ..it's like arguing with a libertarian.

are you guys incapable of thinking beyond the current administration or something?
i'm advocating to fix a broken system instead of saying, lets take advantage of the brokenness and fuck whoever gets hurt later on from that.

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It was because in the Senate, the majority can change the rules with 51 votes, like for confirming a SC nominee, and then presto changeo, it's back for legislation. IIRC Lindsey Graham passed Coney-Barrett out of committee without even a quorum. I doubt it would be an easy fix, but who knows. My point was more that the "normal legislative process" is...legislating. The Republicans are not required to filibuster everything in the hopes they can then blame Democrats for not getting anything done; 50 Republicans don't *have* to refuse to work with Democrats because stagnation is a political calculation--we could keep the filibuster, which is not "normal legislative process," and still return to normal legislative process where a majority can pass legislation.

thats what i mean, some things need to be set in stone. there also needs to be limits placed on presidents (whole nother conversation really), but that would require the ruling party to potentially give up power though.

[Shadowferal]

are you guys incapable of thinking beyond the current administration or something? i'm advocating to fix a broken system instead of saying, lets take advantage of the brokenness and fuck whoever gets hurt later on from that.

No.
You refuse to learn from history, and recent history at that. And you are the only one that can't see any further than now.

[starlord]

No.

You refuse to learn from history, and recent history at that.

okay well enjoy whatever trumpjr & co decide to shove through congress with dems powerless to stop it (unless zombie mccain stops them lol) in 8 years or whatever. at least we passed some stuff that got immediately repealed 4 years after. really stuck it to em.

[Edge-]

i'm advocating to fix a broken system instead of saying, lets take advantage of the brokenness and fuck whoever gets hurt later on from that.

Say it with me now

Democrats
Can't
Fix
Internal
Problems
With
The
Republican
Party
And
Their
Extremist
Base

I admit, it's not a catchy tune and it doesn't quite roll of the tongue but like, the only fix for the system is for Republicans to return to some semblance of normalcy and start acting like a functional political party with a coherent ideology, capable of governing.

there also needs to be limits placed on presidents (whole nother conversation really), but that would require the ruling party to potentially give up power though.

Limits placed in presidents? Like what? The president is already extremely limited in their authority in the Executive branch, even with Congress voluntarily ceding some of that authority (sup AUMF) because they are spineless shits that don't want to have to answer for bad military actions they green light.

[Levelfive]

are you guys incapable of thinking beyond the current administration or something?
i'm advocating to fix a broken system instead of saying, lets take advantage of the brokenness and fuck whoever gets hurt later on from that.

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thats what i mean, some things need to be set in stone. there also needs to be limits placed on presidents (whole nother conversation really), but that would require the ruling party to potentially give up power though.

I'm saying setting it in stone would probably not be an easy fix given how much Republicans in particular have benefited from the rules being fungible.

[Shadowferal]

okay well enjoy whatever trumpjr & co decide to shove through congress with dems powerless to stop it (unless zombie mccain stops them lol) in 8 years or whatever. at least we passed some stuff that got immediately repealed 4 years after. really stuck it to em.

I'm pretty sure you won't complain. After all, where the fuck were you during the prior admin...you with your call for "bipartisanship."

[starlord]

I'm pretty sure you won't complain. After all, where the fuck were you during the prior admin...you with your call for "bipartisanship."

pretty sure i was saying trumps an evil orange douche & repubs were going off the deep end.

but sure, go on about how repubs are bad for not doing bipartisanship while advocating doing the same thing.

[Edge-]

but sure, go on about how repubs are bad for not doing bipartisanship while advocating doing the same thing.

Nobody is advocating for the same thing, that's a strawman you've created.

[Levelfive]

okay well enjoy whatever trumpjr & co decide to shove through congress with dems powerless to stop it (unless zombie mccain stops them lol) in 8 years or whatever. at least we passed some stuff that got immediately repealed 4 years after. really stuck it to em.

Again, Republicans aren't required to filibuster. They could, for instance, NOT filibuster. Or, they could filibuster, but 10 of them could "break ranks." You've staked out a position where you've acceded it's a given that Republicans, for a variety of reasons, are too far gone to do the work of governing, but then claim it's Democrats' job to enable them not to. This feels like an argument where we're saying, "Republicans are deranged* they won't work with Democrats," and you're saying, "But Republicans are deranged! They won't work with Democrats!"

*I don't mean deranged as in mentally unsound, I'll leave that to others to speculate, but deranged as in "disordered in function."

[starlord]

Nobody is advocating for the same thing, that's a strawman you've created.

strawman?
"democrats should ignore and wall off republicans until they capitulate because bipartisanship is dead."

[Edge-]

strawman?
"democrats should ignore and wall off republicans until they capitulate because bipartisanship is dead."

Nobody is demanding that Republicans suddenly support Democratic positions. That's the strawman dude. That's where you're going off the rails.

[Shadowferal]

strawman? "democrats should ignore and wall off republicans until they capitulate because bipartisanship is dead."

Repubs said the same.