Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[starlord]

I think you are fooling yourself here, I am of the cynical opinion that if you voted for Trump twice there's no universe where you would vote democrat. Trump has been very open about what he is so that means there is just one issue that determines your vote and nothing else matters. Everyone is selfish but this is a choice these are the same type of people who would vote for the devil if he had a R next to his name.

I judge people more on what they do not what they say and voting for him twice tells you everything there is to know about these people politically. Trump didn't create the divisions we have he is the product of decades of right wing media misinformation and the GOP trying to keep their grasp on power by appealing to their worse nature. It's foolish to think you can reverse decades of programming that easily, it also doesn't help that we have so many problems in this country like income inequality which is the source of it. However in order to address anything that maybe just maybe might reach those lost souls you have to arm strong the senate to pass legislation.

It's a catch 22 Biden's plan might be the only way to heal the country and get rid of the divisions we have however there's zero chance the GOP is going to let it pass because it means their political death. There can't be any bipartisanship that's why divisions are getting worse, the GOP understands they can only hold power by making things worse that is their brand. If you have any ideas on how to get around this problem I am all ears because it sounds you just think this will magically work itself out in the future. While it might because the GOP base is old it might be too late by then because the road we are heading on is fascism and that's not hyperbole. It's already been shown the right wing has no issues overthrowing democracy if it means they are in charge so democrats need to stop being so soft because whatever it takes is their motto.

thanks, someone who gets it. not everyone did vote trump twice, there were a lot of abstainers both times.
i don't think there is any one solution tbh.
a lot depends on how things play out in these next 2 years. pretty much as endus said it'll work out or it'll be potentially even worse than trump.

as you said, the GOP thrives on division. so it makes sense to seek to minimize or end that division, especially when it deprived extremists of recruits. thats why i disagree so much with the "enemy" rhetoric as thats just further escalating.

[Edge-]

thats why i disagree so much with the "enemy" rhetoric as thats just further escalating.

Yo -

A) That's literally how Republicans frame the disagreement, conservative media included.

B) You don't hear this from Democrats/liberal media, this is a farce.

C) Remember that time Republicans cheered on a group of extremists who stormed the Capitol? Remember how most of them, including and especially Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, keep trying to whitewash the attack and the involvement of Republican members in whipping up the mob?

D) Again, nobody is just blanket calling them "enemies", this is some garbage clutched pearls nonsense.

[starlord]

It's pretty clear to me that you're completely oblivious to just how far off the deep end the Republicans have gone over the last twenty or so years. Our center is not the center in any traditional sense. The center (where most independents fall on the political compass) in America is deeply conservative and that includes some of the Democratic party. If you seriously think the act of pointing out the radicalization of the American right is the problem, then maybe you're just feeling a little cognitive dissonance of your own beliefs. Nobody here is saying all American conservatives are fascists, but for all the bullshit they peddle about the "radical left" they have no interest in policing their own ideological brethren. In other words, they're cowards and hypocrites.

hardly, i know a lot of republicans or other fringe types personally and have had to try and persuade them to act like normal human beings again. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.
the online extremist rabbit hole made them forget that "the enemy" is just normal real people trying to get by.

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Yo -

A) That's literally how Republicans frame the disagreement, conservative media included.

B) You don't hear this from Democrats/liberal media, this is a farce.

C) Remember that time Republicans cheered on a group of extremists who stormed the Capitol? Remember how most of them, including and especially Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, keep trying to whitewash the attack and the involvement of Republican members in whipping up the mob?

D) Again, nobody is just blanket calling them "enemies", this is some garbage clutched pearls nonsense.

"I'm not calling you a nazi, just saying hypothetically if you were a nazi you'd be just as bad as hitler" is not going to get the reaction of "ah yes technically you did not call me a nazi, seems reasonable" from anyone.

and yea its a good thing that the dem leadership has reined in that kind of talk. wonder why they thought that was a good idea, even after the insurrection. secret facist sympathizers maybe?

[Machismo]

hardly, i know a lot of republicans or other fringe types personally and have had to try and persuade them to act like normal human beings again. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.
the online extremist rabbit hole made them forget that "the enemy" is just normal real people trying to get by.

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"I'm not calling you a nazi, just saying hypothetically if you were a nazi you'd be just as bad as hitler" is not going to get the reaction of "ah yes technically you did not call me a nazi, seems reasonable" from anyone.

and yea its a good thing that the dem leadership has reined in that kind of talk. wonder why they thought that was a good idea, even after the insurrection. secret facist sympathizers maybe?

So, let me know when the GOP is ready to act like "normal people."

[Edge-]

"I'm not calling you a nazi, just saying hypothetically if you were a nazi you'd be just as bad as hitler" is not going to get the reaction of "ah yes technically you did not call me a nazi, seems reasonable" from anyone.

Semantical pearl clutching is still dreadfully boring.

and yea its a good thing that the dem leadership has reined in that kind of talk.

There was little explicit talk about it to begin with, and mostly in response to, you know the Republicans that were directly involved in whipping the Capitol riot mob into a frenzy, and then defending them afterwards. Which like, yeah, those specific Republicans are very much the enemies of democracy and a direct threat to their colleagues on both sides of the isle.

secret facist sympathizers maybe?

You're just an unstoppable machine of bad takes, dude.

[starlord]

Semantical pearl clutching is still dreadfully boring.

thats something a facist sympathizer would say.
i'm not saying you're one, just thats what they would say.

There was little explicit talk about it to begin with, and mostly in response to, you know the Republicans that were directly involved in whipping the Capitol riot mob into a frenzy, and then defending them afterwards. Which like, yeah, those specific Republicans are very much the enemies of democracy and a direct threat to their colleagues on both sides of the isle.

ok. how do you plan to stop more of those types from being elected?

You're just an unstoppable machine of bad takes, dude.

ridiculous, isn't it?

[Machismo]

thats something a facist sympathizer would say.
i'm not saying you're one, just thats what they would say.

ok. how do you plan to stop more of those types from being elected?
ridiculous, isn't it?

here's an idea, stop pandering to fascists...

I know, it's a novel concept, but consistently standing against people like you, who want nothing more than to carry water for fascists... is the way to go.

[starlord]

here's an idea, stop pandering to fascists...

I know, it's a novel concept, but consistently standing against people like you, who want nothing more than to carry water for fascists... is the way to go.

methinks theres some projection here.

[Levelfive]

@starlord and they came back with a fraction of the investment. The stimulus was the same shit and the GOP didn’t take the offer. If he does one more of these and they refuse to be bipartisan can we move on from your “argument”?

What IS the argument? It just keeps changing. She's praising Biden for the same positions she's arguing with us for having. Biden inviting Republican participation but not holding things up if (when) it doesn't materialize and moving ahead is exactly what the rest of us have been talking about.

[starlord]

@starlord and they came back with a fraction of the investment. The stimulus was the same shit and the GOP didn’t take the offer. If he does one more of these and they refuse to be bipartisan can we move on from your “argument”?

well its not done being negotiated yet, but he intends to do it whether they agree or not so its kinda moot. what happens in the midterms will determine both party's next moves.
endus's scenario for "dems lose midterms" was that well, government function basically grinds to a halt. which i think is very possible if dems go that route.

everyone was so mad about repub obstruction after obama that the base turned on them, and elected hilla- oh wait thats not what happened.

so its pretty much a game of chicken at this point.

[Levelfive]

well its not done being negotiated yet, but he intends to do it whether they agree or not so its kinda moot. what happens in the midterms will determine both party's next moves.
endus's scenario for "dems lose midterms" was that well, government function basically grinds to a halt. which i think is very possible if dems go that route.

everyone was so mad about repub obstruction after obama that the base turned on them, and elected hilla- oh wait thats not what happened.

so its pretty much a game of chicken at this point.

Which is an excellent argument for removing the filibuster.

[starlord]

What IS the argument? It just keeps changing. She's praising Biden for the same positions she's arguing with us for having. Biden inviting Republican participation but not holding things up if (when) it doesn't materialize and moving ahead is exactly what the rest of us have been talking about.

like i said, i trust biden to handle things as well as he can while trying to preserve some semblance of america being a democracy. my concern is for the somewhat near future, with people echoing repub rhetoric. its not as mainstream right now, but it took time for the repub fringe to take over too.
"well, our intentions are different" but we know what is said about good intentions.

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Which is an excellent argument for removing the filibuster.

that comes with another set of consequences to weigh. apparently the solution is "hope theres a mccain" when all repubs are supposedly facists anyways. right now both parties are afraid of the consequences of that.

[Levelfive]

like i said, i trust biden to handle things as well as he can while trying to preserve some semblance of america being a democracy. my concern is for the somewhat near future, with people echoing repub rhetoric. its not as mainstream right now, but it took time for the repub fringe to take over too.
"well, our intentions are different" but we know what is said about good intentions.

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that comes with another set of consequences to weigh. apparently the solution is "hope theres a mccain" when all repubs are supposedly facists anyways. right now both parties are afraid of the consequences of that.

You have yet to point to a concrete example of Democrats behaving like Republicans along with "well, our intentions are different" rhetoric. Where? Who?

ET respond to your second point. Why do we have to hope for a McCain?

[starlord]

It doesn’t matter what route the dems go, it’s about what the GOP does. You keep conflating moving through obstruction on wildly popular policies with obstructing them. See, if the GOP wins the reason it grinds to a halt is because they do not legislate. It has nothing to do with what the dems passed.

right now its a "wildly popular choice". what about when theres a different one thats not quite as wildly popular?

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You have yet to point to a concrete example of Democrats behaving like Republicans along with "well, our intentions are different" rhetoric. Where? Who?

ET respond to your second point. Why do we have to hope for a McCain?

the gop tax cut that they rammed through was very popular with their base, not so much the dems. i don't recall seeing anyone on the left praising them for that.

so when i gave an example of very unpopular (with dems), but popular with repubs legislation that could be foisted on us without things like the filibuster, the answer i got was "well surely someone like mccain would rise to the occassion".
thats a lot more faith in facists than i'd expect from here.

[starlord]

Like what? Living in hypothetical land is fun, but give a single example of something that’s not only likely to happen, but is also currently proposed.

things like a universal healthcare system? green new deal? right now biden is kinda baby stepping towards those which i think may be a viable approach, but i recall he got a lot of venom about it from the left for not going far enough.

[Levelfive]

right now its a "wildly popular choice". what about when theres a different one thats not quite as wildly popular?

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the gop tax cut that they rammed through was very popular with their base, not so much the dems. i don't recall seeing anyone on the left praising them for that.

so when i gave an example of very unpopular (with dems), but popular with repubs legislation that could be foisted on us without things like the filibuster, the answer i got was "well surely someone like mccain would rise to the occassion".
thats a lot more faith in facists than i'd expect from here.

Right, we don't have to praise them for policy decisions we don't agree with because Democrats accept the terms of our democracy. You can tell because we didn't mount a deadly insurrection when we didn't get our way. Sometimes Republicans will pass things we don't like. Sometimes Democrats will pass things Republicans don't like. It would, of course, be *nice* if a few Republicans voted with us on stuff we like, or against stuff we don't, but doing so is not a requirement of democracy, so there's no need for me to have any faith in fascists, which is good, because I don't.

Here's another way to think about the filibuster, though. Right now, the filibuster as is disincentivizes bipartisanship. You don't even have to stand on the floor and give a long speech--you just signal your intent. After that, there's no debate whatsoever; there's no incentive to work together on any compromise, the bill is just dead in the water. Without the filibuster, where bills would need a simple majority, the minority party would be highly incentivized to participate.

You still have not given an example of Democrats behaving like Republicans and claiming "well, we have good intentions."

[starlord]

Universal healthcare enjoyed a 63% majority of Americans that support it. Green New Deal is at 59%. I asked for an unpopular policy he’d be jamming through, like the tax cuts the GOP rammed through even though the majority of Americans opposed them. Take your time.

and yet the candidates who ran on those didn't make it to the presidency.

[starlord]

Right, we don't have to praise them for policy decisions we don't agree with because Democrats accept the terms of our democracy. You can tell because we didn't mount a deadly insurrection when we didn't get our way. Sometimes Republicans will pass things we don't like. Sometimes Democrats will pass things Republicans don't like. It would, of course, be *nice* if a few Republicans voted with us on stuff we like, or against stuff we don't, but doing so is not a requirement of democracy, so there's no need for me to have any faith in fascists, which is good, because I don't.

Here's another way to think about the filibuster, though. Right now, the filibuster as is disincentivizes bipartisanship. You don't even have to stand on the floor and give a long speech--you just signal your intent. After that, there's no debate whatsoever; there's no incentive to work together on any compromise, the bill is just dead in the water. Without the filibuster, where bills would need a simple majority, the minority party would be highly incentivized to participate.

You still have not given an example of Democrats behaving like Republicans and claiming "well, we have good intentions."

i've said several times i was worried about the future consequences of them adopting this new approach, especially with the way the younger & more radical wing of the party operate.

are we not allowed to play devils advocate for something until after the fact?

we'll have a scenario where both parties ignore each other and attack/undo each others legislation constantly. the facists are happy with this as chaos gives them more of an opening.

[starlord]

So still no examples?

we already have the example of the ACA. the concept was so popular that trump was elected to repeal it due to "government overreach harming small business owners."

[Levelfive]

i've said several times i was worried about the future consequences of them adopting this new approach, especially with the way the younger & more radical wing of the party operate.

are we not allowed to play devils advocate for something until after the fact?

we'll have a scenario where both parties ignore each other and attack/undo each others legislation constantly. the facists are happy with this as chaos gives them more of an opening.

Wait, what? You're saying your whole thing here has been playing devil's advocate about concern that Democrats MIGHT act like Republicans...in the future? So no actual examples, then, got it.

As to the scenario, that's pretty much what we have already, isn't it? As you noted, the filibuster didn't save the ACA, or the Supreme Court. It's also precisely why both parties would be incentivized to work together.

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we already have the example of the ACA. the concept was so popular that trump was elected to repeal it due to "government overreach harming small business owners."

The concept was so popular Hillary Clinton won the popular vote.