Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[starlord]

Wait, what? You're saying your whole thing here has been playing devil's advocate about concern that Democrats MIGHT act like Republicans...in the future? So no actual examples, then, got it.

As to the scenario, that's pretty much what we have already, isn't it? As you noted, the filibuster didn't save the ACA, or the Supreme Court. It's also precisely why both parties would be incentivized to work together.

theres just been so much strawmanning by people that things got lost in the scuffle i guess.
the example was republicans own rhetoric railing against bipartisanship because they saw it as "capitulating to the enemy".
sure, don't compromise with facism or whatever.
but apparently there are closet facists hiding under everyones bed if they don't agree with the dems on literally everything.

the ACA is like schroedingers bill, so popular that repubs would never dare repeal it yet so unpopular that they felt free to run against it and try. or something.

[Cthulhu 2020]

you deradicalize the people who voted them in, and don't use fashy tactics in governing because "well it worked for them."

also, i thought dems were about listening to the experts on things.

Most experts will tell you that the only way to deradicalize someone who is a fascist on a cult belief level, is to separate them from their cult. How, pray tell, does one separate the fascists from each other?

[Endus]

theres just been so much strawmanning by people that things got lost in the scuffle i guess.
the example was republicans own rhetoric railing against bipartisanship because they saw it as "capitulating to the enemy".
sure, don't compromise with facism or whatever.
but apparently there are closet facists hiding under everyones bed if they don't agree with the dems on literally everything.

Motivation and justification matter.

Opposing policy because it's motivated by racist hatreds or other empty bigotries makes sense.
Opposing policy solely because you don't want the other side to get a win does not.

Saying "those are both the same because you're opposing their policy" is just a wild bit of manipulation.

[starlord]

Most experts will tell you that the only way to deradicalize someone who is a fascist on a cult belief level, is to separate them from their cult. How, pray tell, does one separate the fascists from each other?

it takes being approached in honest friendship to find out what drew them in there in the first place and find other ways to sate the need for approval or being part of a group. prevention is better than the cure though, which people have given some possible ideas like opinion talk shows being required to have a disclaimer. but a lot of it comes from "unofficial" sources as well so idk.

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Motivation and justification matter.

Opposing policy because it's motivated by racist hatreds or other empty bigotries makes sense.
Opposing policy solely because you don't want the other side to get a win does not.

Saying "those are both the same because you're opposing their policy" is just a wild bit of manipulation.

i guess i'd take that a little more seriously if i wasn't being labeled as "helping facists" for disagreeing on the most effective ways to fight facists.

something to ponder there.

[Endus]

i guess i'd take that a little more seriously if i wasn't being labeled as "helping facists" for disagreeing on the most effective ways to fight facists.

something to ponder there.

What, exactly?

That you've chosen to martyr yourself on the platform of "won't someone please think of the fascists?!"

And I'm sorry, but "be honest, good friends with fascists and help them achieve what they want to achieve" is not "fighting fascism". I've had a family member drink themselves to death. Literally, alcoholic, his wife and kids left him because of the drinking, died of liver failure, the whole nine. You know what doesn't help an alcoholic? Staying friends with them and making sure they've got beer in the fridge. That's enabling, not friendship. Any support group for friends and family of addicts will tell you that there comes a point where the only thing family and friends can do is separate themselves from their loved one for their own protection.

I have received multiple death threats in my time just here on this forum (less since I stepped down from modding, but non-zero in that time). I've had people wish death upon me even more often, or grievous bodily harm of some kind. If you want a giggle, pull up the Advanced Search page, type "endus" into the name search and see what usernames pop up as options (and that's after the mod team purged about 20-30 similarly ugly entries a few years back). Pretty much entirely from those I'd label as "fascists". And here you are, trying to shame me for "not being friends with them", and saying I'm a meanie-face bad guy for daring to confront them about being fascist. That's all we're talking about, here; confronting them over their beliefs, refusing to help them achieve their harmful goals. That's what you take issue with.

While they're dehumanizing everyone who disagrees with them, and arguing for subjugation of entire groups, and death to any prominent individuals they see as a threat to their fascist views.

Yeah, fucking no, man. You can't "both sides" this shit.

[Bodakane]

it takes being approached in honest friendship to find out what drew them in there in the first place and find other ways to sate the need for approval or being part of a group. prevention is better than the cure though, which people have given some possible ideas like opinion talk shows being required to have a disclaimer. but a lot of it comes from "unofficial" sources as well so idk.

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i guess i'd take that a little more seriously if i wasn't being labeled as "helping facists" for disagreeing on the most effective ways to fight facists.

something to ponder there.

Facists don't have a point that should considered. Neither do racists or nationalists. Funny story, they seem to be all same thing here in the states.

[Cthulhu 2020]

it takes being approached in honest friendship

Nope. Been tried. Doesn't work. Seriously. If you approach them with a friendly interest in their point of view they'll start spouting off shit and trying to convince you of their outrageous beliefs. If you don't believe them they will get mad at you and tell you off.

Seriously, this has been tried TO DEATH and nobody does it any more because people who have been radicalized to the extent that many conservatives have are not going to come to some kind of compromise table no matter how friendly you are. There's a reason they're called radicals. They're not in the normal scope of human behavior. They've lost their reasoning.

[Machismo]

methinks theres some projection here.

Nah, you got busted.

It's fine, we've seen plenty of Trumspters try similar tactics. They all get outed, eventually.

[Masark]

Gee I wonder why the Rand Institute has an interest in keeping fascism platformed.

FYI, RAND Corporation has nothing to do with Ayn Rand.

RAND is a think tank that spawned out of the Douglas Aircraft Company (which later became McDonnell Douglas following a merger) post WW2. The name stands for Research ANd Development.

[Zan15]

we already have the example of the ACA. the concept was so popular that trump was elected to repeal it due to "government overreach harming small business owners."

it was so popular that when it came down too it, republicans had the chance to repeal and didn't do it.

You can't force me to pay for health insurance damit!!! .....looks at Medicare for the last 50 years.....

[Felya]

it takes being approached in honest friendship to find out what drew them in there in the first place and find other ways to sate the need for approval or being part of a group.

This isn’t new... they leave families over this... they break friendships over this...

[Fugus]

it was so popular that when it came down too it, republicans had the chance to repeal and didn't do it.

You can't force me to pay for health insurance damit!!! .....looks at Medicare for the last 50 years.....

Not entirely for the ACA, it came down to a single vote and it took McCain being on his deathbed and knowing that his vote would decide his legacy to actually do the right thing. The Republicans would have removed it if they could and then blamed the ACA for the consequences of its repeal.

People who keep talking about them pretending to want to repeal the ACA but not wanting to, keep forgetting just how close it came and just how much it took for a Republican to have a crisis of conscience enough to do the right thing when the time came.

Edit: If McCain was healthy and thought he would run for re-election, we wouldn't have the ACA right now.

[Kaleredar]

we already have the example of the ACA. the concept was so popular that trump was elected to repeal it due to "government overreach harming small business owners."

...elected by whom? The majority of Americans didn't want Trump to be president. Why should a minority of voters be able to decide something as important as health care for the majority?

[Dontrike]

20 pages of arguing the same point repeatedly to one person.

[Fugus]

20 pages of arguing the same point repeatedly to one person.

Yep, and its the same people arguing it to them that argued with Orlong, Shlacker and the rest and know what they are doing yet continue to do it anyways. They make it where I end up having to ask if anything new happened because if there was anything in the previous pages of pigeon shit there is a good chance I won't have read it.

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https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53163519

Guys, take the discussion here please.

[Mihalik]

it takes being approached in honest friendship.

Let's clear something up right here.

You can't be friends with someone who literally wants to kill you. Fascists, unopposed, left to their own devices inevitably end up in the same place. Death camps, mass murder and oppression.

You always have to have a door open for people who want to take a step back from that madness, but they need to reject that path and ideology before expecting the victims of their mad hatred to extend an olive branch.

It's not the victim's job to "fix" the victimizer.

[Kellhound]

...elected by whom? The majority of Americans didn't want Trump to be president. Why should a minority of voters be able to decide something as important as health care for the majority?

The majority didn't want Clinton elected either time he won as well.

[draynay]

The majority didn't want Clinton elected either time he won as well.

Usually people weighing in on these things have some sort of "point".

[PhaelixWW]

The majority didn't want Clinton elected either time he won as well.

..."either time he won"...?

I sure hope this just parsed funny and you meant: "The majority didn't want Clinton elected either, the time Trump won, as well."

[Levelfive]

The majority didn't want Clinton elected either time he won as well.

Yes, that's how 3-way races and pluralities work.