Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Draco-Onis]

WY is not a blue state. Is that enough of a contrast to get the point across?

Do you really think it would matter which state she was in? if you got out of line they go after you.

[Ripster42]

Do you really think it would matter which state she was in to the Trump cult?

To people like magic the gathering? No. To mccarthy and congressional leaders? Yes. Show me one place where a vulnerable GOP senate seat has been dogpiled by the GOP and I'd take this BS seriously. Take susan collins for example. She voted to impeach. Not the same backlash. Or pat toomey. Same story. Reality contradicts your viewpoint.

[Draco-Onis]

To people like magic the gathering? No. To mccarthy and congressional leaders? Yes. Show me one place where a vulnerable GOP senate seat has been dogpiled by the GOP and I'd take this BS seriously. Take susan collins for example. She voted to impeach. Not the same backlash. Or pat toomey. Same story. Reality contradicts your viewpoint.

Hundreds of GOP members got primaried in the house, they voted in the second impeachment when everyone including Moscow Mitch were bad mouthing Trump because they thought it was on the way out. The reality pretty much checks out my point of view, if she had voted in the first impeachment and survived you would have been right but the second all the rats were jumping ships or edging their bets they have all come crawling back.

[Ripster42]

Hundreds of GOP members got primaried in the house, they voted in the second impeachment when everyone including Moscow Mitch were bad mouthing Trump because they thought it was on the way out. The reality pretty much checks out my point of view, if she had voted in the first impeachment and survived you would have been right but the second all the rats were jumping ships or edging their bets they have all come crawling back.

Cheney hasn't faced a vote either. Again, look at reality. Those 2 senators (the only ones with vulnerable seats who voted for impeachment) didn't get backlash the same way cheney has (safe seat and in the house). Essentially no GOP with a vulnerable seat has. Again, come up with an actual case of the GOP running out one of their vulnerable senator seats on a rail and come back with an example. Reality doesn't conform to your BS here.

[Draco-Onis]

Cheney hasn't faced a vote either. Again, look at reality. Those 2 senators (the only ones with vulnerable seats who voted for impeachment) didn't get backlash the same way cheney has (safe seat and in the house). Essentially no GOP with a vulnerable seat has. Again, come up with an actual case of the GOP running out one of their vulnerable senator seats on a rail and come back with an example. Reality doesn't conform to your BS here.

They got censured she doesn't get an election until 2022 and she will be primaried. Those two senators were following the party line, are you seriously going to ignore things like McConnell breaking with Trump at the time even giving a speech even though he voted against impeachment. After Jan 6th they all thought Trump was done that's the reality, you can take whatever BS gives you comfort. But Manchin seat is worthless anyway, what are you trying to preserve exactly? democrats now have a majority in name only since nothing will pass.

[Ripster42]

They got censured she doesn't get an election until 2022 and she will be primaried. Those two senators were following the party line, are you seriously going to ignore things like McConnell breaking with Trump at the time even giving a speech even though he voted against impeachment. After Jan 6th they all thought Trump was done that's the reality, you can take whatever BS gives you comfort. But Manchin seat is worthless anyway, what are you trying to preserve exactly? democrats now have a majority in name only since nothing will pass.

She's also not a senator. Are you seriously going to ignore the fact that they didn't pile on either of the vulnerable senators (which would be the actual like case in this scenario) and did pile on the holder of a safe house seat? Do you really view the world this simplistically?

Not worthless. Prevents the GOP from running the senate. Your nose must be scared you're going to cut it off.

[Draco-Onis]

She's also not a senator. Are you seriously going to ignore the fact that they didn't pile on either of the vulnerable senators (which would be the actual like case in this scenario) and did pile on the holder of a safe house seat? Do you really view the world this simplistically?

Not worthless. Prevents the GOP from running the senate. Your nose must be scared you're going to cut it off.

They aren't up for re-election and again they were following the party line at the time.

If the GOP had the senate they would get nothing passed because Biden would veto it and Democrats having the senate results in nothing so where's the upside here?

[Ripster42]

They aren't up for re-election and again they were following the party line at the time.

If the GOP had the senate they would get nothing passed because Biden would veto it and Democrats having the senate results in nothing so where's the upside here?

Them not being up for re-election makes it even less likely they'd refrain from trashing them (toomey is retiring, collins just got re-elected). Yet they didn't, still. Your argument doesn't favor your position.

Did either of them lose any of their roles like cheney did? Again, the positions are not similar between piling on vulnerable senators and piling on safe house seats. It's foolish to compare the two. One is a safe position that's just 1/435 members. The others are vulnerable and 1/100 members. Senate seats are more valuable, and vulnerable seats, by their definition, are more at risk.

You're asking what the upside is after the dems have already used reconciliation to pass legislation. Are you even trying to make coherent points?

[Draco-Onis]

You're asking what the upside is after the dems have already used reconciliation to pass legislation. Are you even trying to make coherent points?

Manchin is against using reconciliation anymore, did you miss that? that's why democrats have to go through all this negotiation for infrastructure.

[Ripster42]

Manchin and Sinema are against using reconciliation anymore, did you miss that? that's why democrats have to go through all this negotiation for infrastructure.

They're not against using reconciliation anymore, they're against changing the rules regarding reconciliation (which is what reopening the bill they passed via reconciliation is). It's the same thing as not wanting to get rid of the filibuster. You can disagree with them on this point, but they're being consistent in that they believe it's a slippery slope towards a runaway legislature (and I do disagree with them). Reconciliation is only for passing one bill per year (well, 3, but on this type of bill, only one). This congress still gets another one next year.

Again, do you really view the world this simplistically? You think shitting on the only non-GOP senator likely to get elected to represent WV is a good idea strategically? You think it would be better if the GOP were running the senate and there were no chances at passing bills via reconciliation at all?

[Draco-Onis]

They're not against using reconciliation anymore, they're against changing the rules regarding reconciliation (which is what reopening the bill they passed via reconciliation is). It's the same thing as not wanting to get rid of the filibuster. You can disagree with them on this point, but they're being consistent in that they believe it's a slippery slope towards a runaway legislature (and I do disagree with them). Reconciliation is only for passing one bill per year (well, 3, but on this type of bill, only one). This congress still gets another one next year.

Again, do you really view the world this simplistically? You think shitting on the only non-GOP senator likely to get elected to represent WV is a good idea strategically? You think it would be better if the GOP were running the senate and there were no chances at passing bills via reconciliation at all?

Because unlike you I simply see history repeating itself for the democrats with nothing being learned. What does this accomplish in the end? let's say you are right we coddle and love Manchin with all our hearts. Without the voting rights bill democrats will lose both house of congress and possibly 2024 so all this progress will be for naught. There's no redo here these laws solidify the GOP minority rule for decades to come.

[Dontrike]

Biden has to publicly attack him, cut off his funding and make sure hit him where it hurt.

Sounds like you're suggesting to act like Trump in this regard.

[Draco-Onis]

Sounds like you're suggesting to act like Trump in this regard.

You have to know when to be an asshole when democracy is at stake that is a pretty good time to take the kid gloves off.

[PhaelixWW]

You have to know when to be an asshole when democracy is at stake that is a pretty good time to take the kid gloves off.

Why on earth do you think that attacking him would do any good? What do you imagine his reaction to be, exactly?

[Ripster42]

Because unlike you I simply see history repeating itself for the democrats with nothing being learned. What does this accomplish in the end? let's say you are right we coddle and love Manchin with all our hearts. Without the voting rights bill democrats will lose both house of congress and possibly 2024 so all this progress will be for naught. There's no redo here these laws solidify the GOP minority rule for decades to come.

You realize there's space between "coddle and love" and "shit on" right? That it's a continuum? That shitting on vulnerable senators is just going to make them less likely to be re-elected by depressing (D) turnout in their states?

And again, they're still passing legislation via reconciliation. The "For the People" act wouldn't have been passed without it. Whatever they use it on next year wouldn't either (if I had to guess, that one will address infrastructure if a deal isn't made by then).

If you look at the recent NV (I think it was nevada, might have been new mexico) special, dems are out-performing their 2020 pace (small sample, so keep that in mind). If dems don't fall to infighting, they're unlikely to lose the house. The senate contests are basically for MO, GA, OH, FL, and PA. Only one of those is held by a dem. I fully expect GOP turnout to be down because trump isn't on the ballot, and fully expect dem turnout to be up b/c of how pissed they are at the restrictions. I expect dems to flip PA and hold GA. Not much hope for OH/FL/MO (unless greitens gets the GOP nom). I get being mad at the restrictions, but it's not a foregone conclusion (anything but), and shitting on the people who help you maintain control of the chamber is just not a great idea. It doesn't benefit dems at all (just like ostracizing cheney didn't help the GOP with it's moderates and independents).

[Dontrike]

You have to know when to be an asshole when democracy is at stake that is a pretty good time to take the kid gloves off.

Yes, there is being an asshole and just being a plain piss nickle. I will agree you need to be tough, but there is a better way to go about such a thing when it comes to this.

[Edge-]

What would Manchin going republican change?

Senate Majority Mitch McConnell.

I don't think you realize how significant McConnell being minority leader is. Yes, Manchin is a fuckin anchor, but he's infinitely preferable to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. Even without a Republican in the White House.

Did we stop thinking just because Democrats have some modicum of power or something?

[cors8]

As much hate as Manchin deserves, at least Democrats control committees and can bring up things like judges for nominations. Good luck getting that done with McTurtle as Majority Leader.

[beanman12345]

As much hate as Manchin deserves, at least Democrats control committees and can bring up things like judges for nominations. Good luck getting that done with McTurtle as Majority Leader.

Well, that's gonna be the reality in 1.5 years. I guess we gotta focus and cram in as many judges we can cause nothing is coming out of committee's that's gonna be passed outside yearly budgets.

[DarkTZeratul]

Senate Majority Mitch McConnell.

I don't think you realize how significant McConnell being minority leader is. Yes, Manchin is a fuckin anchor, but he's infinitely preferable to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. Even without a Republican in the White House.

Did we stop thinking just because Democrats have some modicum of power or something?

Like I said: Democrats may really not control the Senate, but they DID deny the Republicans control and that's not nothing.