Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Bodakane]

Also, that "D" keeps committees in dems control.

What control?

We cannot stop the filibuster. We cannot get voting protections passed.

Without those two things none of this shit about control matters. Once again, the Repubs will break every rule and cheat in every way possible, and we can literally do nothing about it. You guys are celebrating the taking of a nondescript hill, while we become surrounded by the enemy.

[Edge-]

What control?

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, who decides which legislation is brought to vote, can push nominees forward etc.

Why does nobody seem to appreciate how important this is in comparison to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell?

We cannot stop the filibuster. We cannot get voting protections passed.

Sure, but it's the best that can be done with the current situation. It means judicial nominees are moving forward, it means legislation can at least be brought to a vote (Do you think the American Rescue Act would have been brought to a vote in the Senate under McConnell? I don't), it means Democrats technically control committees, it means they can use reconciliation.

You guys are celebrating the taking of a nondescript hill, while we become surrounded by the enemy.

Again, I don't think y'all really understand how important having Minority Leader Mitch McConnell really is.

[Bodakane]

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, who decides which legislation is brought to vote, can push nominees forward etc.

Why does nobody seem to appreciate how important this is in comparison to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell?



Sure, but it's the best that can be done with the current situation. It means judicial nominees are moving forward, it means legislation can at least be brought to a vote (Do you think the American Rescue Act would have been brought to a vote in the Senate under McConnell? I don't), it means Democrats technically control committees, it means they can use reconciliation.



Again, I don't think y'all really understand how important having Minority Leader Mitch McConnell really is.

So what? Nominations are minor right now to be honest.

The biggest issues we face are voting rights and the filibuster. McConnell has positioned the right to win both of these things....even from the minority seat. Winning them, literally wins everything going forward. Fuck the next 2 years and consider the next 20.

[Fugus]

Part of me wonders, just how far can old Moscow Mitch the Bitch and the Republicans push this stuff till those on the left start getting as physical and violent as those on the right.

[Shadowferal]

Got a couple of dems suggesting that the 82yr old Stephen Breyer should retire ehile dems are still in control.

[Edge-]

So what? Nominations are minor right now to be honest.

Do we forget how McConnell has reshaped the federal judiciary as Majority leader? That should say, a SCOTUS seat open up that he would be able to delay any nominations until the next president?

Do we not care about other legislation that Democrats may want to push through that has a chance with Manchin/Sinema, but that McConnell may want to deny them just to hurt Democrats? Like the American Rescue Act?

The biggest issues we face are voting rights and the filibuster. McConnell has positioned the right to win both of these things....even from the minority seat.

Not denying those are major issues, they are, but this is an extremely, insanely myopic view of the Senate and the issues facing the country right now.

Winning them, literally wins everything going forward. Fuck the next 2 years and consider the next 20.

Cool, and like it or not there's not a likely win condition for those, at least in the next few years. So you do what you can now with what you have, push for more seats in 2022, and hopefully get those seats so you can move forward while allowing assholes like Manchin and Sinema to complain about "muh bipartisanship".

- - - Updated - - -

Got a couple of dems suggesting that the 82yr old Stephen Breyer should retire ehile dems are still in control.

Honestly, he fuckin should. Let Democrats appoint a young progressive judge up there in his place and push for term limits for SCOTUS judges so we don't end with this hellscape cold war over what could be control of the SCOTUS for decades.

[Bodakane]

Do we forget how McConnell has reshaped the federal judiciary as Majority leader? That should say, a SCOTUS seat open up that he would be able to delay any nominations until the next president?

Do we not care about other legislation that Democrats may want to push through that has a chance with Manchin/Sinema, but that McConnell may want to deny them just to hurt Democrats? Like the American Rescue Act?



Not denying those are major issues, they are, but this is an extremely, insanely myopic view of the Senate and the issues facing the country right now.



Cool, and like it or not there's not a likely win condition for those, at least in the next few years. So you do what you can now with what you have, push for more seats in 2022, and hopefully get those seats so you can move forward while allowing assholes like Manchin and Sinema to complain about "muh bipartisanship".

We aren't going to undue anything McConnell did to the judiciary in significant numbers in two years, which is all we will likely get without the voter protections and filibuster reform. You are not usually this shortsighted. We are fucked and you guys are brightsiding this whole thing by touting the "control" that won't result in much significant. We need reform, without it, this control is just toothless and in effect, nothing more than the timer for a major bomb.

[Edge-]

We aren't going to undue anything McConnell did to the judiciary in significant numbers in two years

Who said anything about undoing all McConnell's work? It's about preventing him from continuing that work and slowly working to push back by appointing more neutral/progressive nominees to openings instead of the short-list from the Heritage Foundation/Federalist Society.

which is all we will likely get without the voter protections and filibuster reform.

Except not? Neither one of those has anything to do with federal judges confirmed to their respective benches. I'm not even sure how you'd connect the two.

You are not usually this shortsighted.

I'm not wearing blinders and focusing only two (important) issues at the expense of everything else, actually.

We are fucked and you guys are brightsiding this whole thing by touting the "control" that won't result in much significant.

No, y'all just saw that the battle for real control was lost and are out here talking about how the war is lost and we need to go to X or Y extreme or some shit.

It's a limited victory, but taking control of the Senate away from the Republicans is a HUGE step forward. Sure, it may not deliver everything we/Democrats/progressives hope for, but it's a big step forward that y'all pretend is meaningless.

We need reform, without it, this control is just toothless and in effect, nothing more than the timer for major bomb.

Cool, and reform takes a big majority. Hopefully Democrats will somehow get it come 2022, but it's more likely they either hold their "majority" or gain/lose a few seats. If they gain a few great, but that won't even be enough for big reform like you're talking about. You need a lot more than a few seat majority to push these kinds of reforms, and Republicans aren't going to sign on board with any of them.

You think that what is an extremely challenging task is just so easy if it weren't for that darned Manchin. Or at least that's what it sure consistently seems like.

[Benggaul]

We aren't going to undue anything McConnell did to the judiciary in significant numbers in two years, which is all we will likely get without the voter protections and filibuster reform. You are not usually this shortsighted. We are fucked and you guys are brightsiding this whole thing by touting the "control" that won't result in much significant. We need reform, without it, this control is just toothless and in effect, nothing more than the timer for a major bomb.

They're saying what can be done under the current circumstances. You're saying what can't be done due to the current circumstances. What do you propose should be done? They can't push through HR1 or filibuster reform without Manchin on board. They can't threaten to primary him if he doesn't get on board. They have zero chance to woo more moderate Republican Senators on these issues. So, besides working on the things they CAN do--such as confirming judges and admittedly other, less-important legislation--what else is there? Apart from doing their best to help get another Democrat or two elected to the Senate in 2022.

You may consider these to be minor victories, but it's a helluva lot better than the shit we've had to endure the past 4 years+ and I'll take wins when I can get them.

[cubby]

What control?

We cannot stop the filibuster. We cannot get voting protections passed.

Without those two things none of this shit about control matters. Once again, the Repubs will break every rule and cheat in every way possible, and we can literally do nothing about it. You guys are celebrating the taking of a nondescript hill, while we become surrounded by the enemy.

Majority of the Senate gives legislative and agenda control. Committee Chairs. Judges vote on. Control is an enormous amount of influence. Without it nothing gets even voted on.

You need to really look into what the Senate Majority leader does and can do. Your take on it is very limited.

- - - Updated - - -

We aren't going to undue anything McConnell did to the judiciary in significant numbers in two years, which is all we will likely get without the voter protections and filibuster reform. You are not usually this shortsighted. We are fucked and you guys are brightsiding this whole thing by touting the "control" that won't result in much significant. We need reform, without it, this control is just toothless and in effect, nothing more than the timer for a major bomb.

We can't undo anything McConnell did - once appointed they are in, barring impeachment, judges are for life. You really need to get more informed before posting stuff like this.

What we do get is judicial appointments of our own. Without it the vote to confirm wouldn't' even come up.

Why are you all doomsday without knowing what you're talking about?

[Endus]

Part of me wonders, just how far can old Moscow Mitch the Bitch and the Republicans push this stuff till those on the left start getting as physical and violent as those on the right.

People take action when it becomes clear their political leaders won't or can't.

That's the big problem, right now; American democracy is under direct and systemic assault by Republicans, and everyone else can either dick around trying to play "nice" with an enemy that will shank them for half of two-day-old sandwich, or they can get serious about taking actual fucking action against the architects of that assault.

In this context, that means strong prosecutorial efforts against anyone who supported the Jan 6 insurrection. For starters. I mean anyone who ever pushed a supportive tweet, anyone who ever suggested it was Antifa there not Republicans, anyone who ever supported the motives behind it, any of that. One tweet, and that should be all that's needed for a conviction for Rebellion or Insurrection under the law, under the "giving aid or comfort" clause of that law.

A tweet's not a huge deal. I'm not saying you Tweeted out a "woo, go patriots" at the white supremacist dingbats on Jan 6, so you should go to prison for 10 years, here. Just that you should get a felony conviction, and that last little clause there should apply; barred from holding any office in the federal government, ever again in your life. If it's just a tweet, no fine, no jail time. Just a felony record and a GTFO stamp on your file.

That's a bare-minimum start.

I have to hope that the Biden DOJ is just getting all their ducks in a row to get their first Insurrection conviction on someone, so they can snowball those convictions through by the precedent it sets, but the snail's pace of prosecutions doesn't make me feel strongly that this is the case. And if it isn't, if people like Lauren Boebert aren't going to face criminal convictions for their actions, then the law doesn't matter and the USA is well past the tipping point and it's probably not even possible to save the country. It's already too deeply, hopelessly corrupt to be salvaged, as it stands, if that's the case. Its legal system would rather slaughter innocent black citizens and prosecute people caught with a joint in their pockets than actual armed insurrection against the federal government, and the worst attack on the Capitol since 1812.

[shimerra]

Tribalism isn't great but in this case... Manchin has voted along with Republicans at an alarmingly high rate during one of the most ridiculous presidencies we've seen in ages.

Is this more or less preferable to the alternative in WV which is a Republican who with Repubs at a 98% or more likely 100% rate? I ran the math through my numbers monkey and he told me that 100% is higher than 25% but I'm curious what yours has said. And as others pointed out without Manchin McConnel gets a 100% chance to block all hope of anything but a hard core conservative getting nominated to the courts.

Manchin sucks. But given the circumstances of a Republican controlled Senate or Manchin holding things up the Manchin problem is a massively better one to have in any objective sense even if it's frustrating at times. And I'll happily take that problem with the hope that he can be made irrelevant the next election cycle if dems can increase their numbers over just having the Republican problem. Him and Sinema are bigger thorns in the ass of their party than Romney, but the comparison isn't outlandish.

[Edge-]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...ssian-n1270730

Damn neoliberal pro-austerity Biden administration releasing Reality Winner from prison early! He's not different than Trump, I tells ya!

[Milchshake]

Good luck, explaining to BernieBros how the senate works. How do you undo 5 years of magical thinking? Which may or may not have been negatively reinforced by "the Algorithm".

Looks like popcorn for lunch today!


There is an entirely reasonable path to 53 Senators in 2022 that doesn't rely on anything crazy.
Hold the 4 lean-D seats (all Dem incumbents in states Biden won).
Target 3 other winnable seats; Incumbent WI, Open PA, and Open NC.


Also looks like the 4th Biden judge gets confirmed today, on the powerful DC Court of Appeals.

[D3thray]

People take action when it becomes clear their political leaders won't or can't.

That's the big problem, right now; American democracy is under direct and systemic assault by Republicans, and everyone else can either dick around trying to play "nice" with an enemy that will shank them for half of two-day-old sandwich, or they can get serious about taking actual fucking action against the architects of that assault.

In this context, that means strong prosecutorial efforts against anyone who supported the Jan 6 insurrection. For starters. I mean anyone who ever pushed a supportive tweet, anyone who ever suggested it was Antifa there not Republicans, anyone who ever supported the motives behind it, any of that. One tweet, and that should be all that's needed for a conviction for Rebellion or Insurrection under the law, under the "giving aid or comfort" clause of that law.

A tweet's not a huge deal. I'm not saying you Tweeted out a "woo, go patriots" at the white supremacist dingbats on Jan 6, so you should go to prison for 10 years, here. Just that you should get a felony conviction, and that last little clause there should apply; barred from holding any office in the federal government, ever again in your life. If it's just a tweet, no fine, no jail time. Just a felony record and a GTFO stamp on your file.

That's a bare-minimum start.

I have to hope that the Biden DOJ is just getting all their ducks in a row to get their first Insurrection conviction on someone, so they can snowball those convictions through by the precedent it sets, but the snail's pace of prosecutions doesn't make me feel strongly that this is the case. And if it isn't, if people like Lauren Boebert aren't going to face criminal convictions for their actions, then the law doesn't matter and the USA is well past the tipping point and it's probably not even possible to save the country. It's already too deeply, hopelessly corrupt to be salvaged, as it stands, if that's the case. Its legal system would rather slaughter innocent black citizens and prosecute people caught with a joint in their pockets than actual armed insurrection against the federal government, and the worst attack on the Capitol since 1812.

Some days I’m relieved you’re Canadian. So much wrong with these ideas just on the basis of the US constitution. I’d say more but I’m at work.

[Endus]

Some days I’m relieved you’re Canadian. So much wrong with these ideas just on the basis of the US constitution. I’d say more but I’m at work.

You mean like how I'm literally pointing to American law?

You didn't even post an argument. You just attacked me for being Canadian.

[PACOX]

Tribalism isn't great but in this case... Manchin has voted along with Republicans at an alarmingly high rate during one of the most ridiculous presidencies we've seen in ages.

I think people forget that the Dems aren't actually in control and Manchins nonsense holds left-wing policies back. You can argue that Manchin can cross party lines...when the Dems aren't counting on one or two votes to get anything passed. Too much time and effort is being placed in one man who doesn't share values with half the party and willing to drag it down to get his way. His usefulness is margin, the effort used to placate his salty ass doesn't yield half the results the party gets out of it. What would the party lose if Manchin were to go Republican tomorrow? Not a damn thing to be quite honest, not like he was a vote to be counted on anyway. Resources would be better spent preparing to flip vulnerables seats in other places than counting on one wishy washy guy out of WV. Same goes for Sinema.


Numbers don't mean shit if you can't actually use them.

[cubby]

You mean like how I'm literally pointing to American law?

You didn't even post an argument. You just attacked me for being Canadian.

There is plenty of room in U.S. law to prosecute the way you mentioned earlier. It would take some political will, but imo well worth it, given how much our democracy is under attack from the GQP.
@D3thray - seems like you literally have no idea what's going on. If you're confused about the law, use the links Endus provided, so some *actual* research on your own, or ask questions and we'll explain as best possible.

[Belize]

Some days I’m relieved you’re Canadian. So much wrong with these ideas just on the basis of the US constitution. I’d say more but I’m at work.

So kind of you to take time off from your busy day to tell someone they're wrong, but not explain why.

[cubby]

I think people forget that the Dems aren't actually in control and Manchins nonsense holds left-wing policies back. You can argue that Manchin can cross party lines...when the Dems aren't counting on one or two votes to get anything passed. Too much time and effort is being placed in one man who doesn't share values with half the party and willing to drag it down to get his way. His usefulness is margin, the effort used to placate his salty ass doesn't yield half the results the party gets out of it. What would the party lose if Manchin were to go Republican tomorrow? Not a damn thing to be quite honest, not like he was a vote to be counted on anyway. Resources would be better spent preparing to flip vulnerables seats in other places than counting on one wishy washy guy out of WV. Same goes for Sinema.


Numbers don't mean shit if you can't actually use them.

I think people forget that Manchin is the reason we can appoint judges and get them confirmed. Or bring up legislation to be voted on. To even be able to use Reconciliation.

Numbers mean a lot when you know what you're talking about.