1. #9061
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    You’re saying that short of genocide we weren’t trying to win.
    Because we were trying for a military solution only, and not willing to be as ruthless as that requires, we were not dedicated to winning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    how the fuck does every thread with kellhound in go to some war fantasy or ranting about city slickers. Do you not get bored?
    There is no war fantasy in this discussion by me, though that cannot be said of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    People who've served in the armed forces are often very sensitive to criticism of said armed forces because of the sunk cost fallacy of having given a significant amount of time and energy to an enterprise that a) didn't quite turn out as glamorously as the recruiter who dropped by their high school led them to believe, and b) ultimately doesn't give a shit about them beyond their usefulness as a warm body.

    You know. Same shit with people that work for large corporations and get butthurt whenever you point out said corporation is exploitative. If you kneejerk hard enough, you might even convince yourself that everything's fine.
    I understand the good and the bad concerning the US military, in ways you never will be. You are blinded by your lack of understanding.

  2. #9062
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I understand the good and the bad concerning the US military, in ways you never will be. You are blinded by your lack of understanding.
    Taking every PR line the Department of Defense sharts out at face value isn't understanding. Rofl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #9063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post


    The US' track record with asymmetrical warfare regardless of the circumstances would indicate otherwise.

    Again, "the US didn't lose the Vietnam War because South Vietnam was still technically in control when we withdrew" is as stupid as "you can't fire me, I quit". It's very very obviously a face saving measure.

    It's just kind of hilarious that someone who professes to be familiar with foreign policy actually falls for it.
    Ok, name the asymmetrical warfare against a state actor that the US failed at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Taking every PR line the Department of Defense sharts out at face value isn't understanding. Rofl.
    ROFL. You are so clueless about the military it is not even funny. You disagree with its function so you are unable to look at it in any manner that allows for honest discussion.

  4. #9064
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    ROFL. You are so clueless about the military it is not even funny.
    I'm not the one who's trying to spin the Vietnam War into a US 'victory' because I can't stomach the notion that the US isn't the best at everything.

    Pot, kettle. Next you'll be telling me we succeeded in Afghanistan despite the Taliban being set to retake the country the minute the US pulls out (where have we heard that before, lol).
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #9065
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Ok, name the asymmetrical warfare against a state actor that the US failed at.
    'Nam had state actors, Lebanon had state actors

  6. #9066
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I'm not the one who's trying to spin the Vietnam War into a US 'victory' because I can't stomach the notion that the US isn't the best at everything.

    Pot, kettle. Next you'll be telling me we succeeded in Afghanistan despite the Taliban being set to retake the country the minute the US pulls out (where have we heard that before, lol).
    The US defeated the NVA, it did what a military is supposed to be good at. That is all I have ever claimed under "victory" in Vietnam. There is no doubt the US sucks at COIN, though that is mainly a political failing.

    The US was successful in removing the Taliban from being a state-actor. It then failed to do anything constructive to render them ineffective as an insurgent force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    'Nam had state actors, Lebanon had state actors
    And the US was able to handle the state-actors.

  7. #9067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    You really need to read a history book.
    I have read quite a few actually (easily 50+), and most not from the US perspective.

  8. #9068
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    And you call it the NVA?
    I call the PAV the NVA for the same reason I call the R-60 the AA-8 Aphid, familiarity and commonality with most people I discuss it with.

  9. #9069
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    And why do you claim that the US defeated them? Too much LSD?
    Because the US did defeat them. The US failed to defeat the Viet Cong (LASV if you prefer). Two different entities.

  10. #9070
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    But... but... the only reason we didn't win the Vietnam War was because we weren't trying hard enough, just like Afghanistan, right? /s
    In a way, it is true. Uncle Sam never tried taking Hanoi.

  11. #9071
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    In a way, it is true. Uncle Sam never tried taking Hanoi.
    ...because then we would have been in a war with China.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  12. #9072
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    ...because then we would have been in a war with China.
    Precisely.

  13. #9073
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    Well, for the first year in office many posters here, including myself, did not give Trump credit for creating jobs, since he had enacted no policies and enacted no agenda that could possibly have taken root yet.

    Therefore:

    Our Ruling

    Biden said, "We have now created over 3 million jobs since I took office, more jobs than have ever been created in the first five months of any presidency in modern history."

    Biden is right on the numbers and on how they compare with his recent predecessors in the Oval Office.

    However, this talking point glosses over the reality that the U.S. economy remains almost 6.8 million jobs under its pre-pandemic peak. Meanwhile, comparing presidents as Biden did is highly sensitive to the economic conditions around the time of their inauguration; Biden entered office during a deep recession, but he took over on the upswing, a situation that not all presidents have benefited from.

    We rate the statement Half True.
    Sorry, but if Trump can't say it, Biden can't say it, either. I'm glad things are improving of course, but I can't give Biden as much credit as he's implying.

    Of course, Trump supporters who backed Trump when Trump said Trump created jobs, they have to accept Biden created more. Or, they have to point to the post they made pre-2018 which says "Trump doesn't get credit". Their hands are tied.

    EDIT: Oh, and to add to it: remember when W created a massive recession then gave the keys to Obama? The US lost a ton of jobs during Obama's first year. The same applies. Biden may be pushing for a recovery based on science, evidence and facts, but saying he's responsible for the job growth is leaving out a bunch of mandatory context.
    Last edited by Breccia; 2021-07-16 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #9074
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Well, for the first year in office many posters here, including myself, did not give Trump credit for creating jobs, since he had enacted no policies and enacted no agenda that could possibly have taken root yet.

    Therefore:

    Our Ruling



    Sorry, but if Trump can't say it, Biden can't say it, either. I'm glad things are improving of course, but I can't give Biden as much credit as he's implying.

    Of course, Trump supporters who backed Trump when Trump said Trump created jobs, they have to accept Biden created more. Or, they have to point to the post they made pre-2018 which says "Trump doesn't get credit". Their hands are tied.

    EDIT: Oh, and to add to it: remember when W created a massive recession then gave the keys to Obama? The US lost a ton of jobs during Obama's first year. The same applies. Biden may be pushing for a recovery based on science, evidence and facts, but saying he's responsible for the job growth is leaving out a bunch of mandatory context.
    I’ll give Biden little more credit here, though, seeing as he’s not couching this whole thing in “the numbers were fake before and now they’re real” like trump did.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  15. #9075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I’ll give Biden little more credit here, though, seeing as he’s not couching this whole thing in “the numbers were fake before and now they’re real” like trump did.
    I mean no administration in history oversaw a $2trillion dollar injection in the economy in their first 2 months...
    Pundits not mentioning this seems like a major oversight. 2 TRILLION is a comically huge number to overlook.

    Sometimes I feel like Politifact is the canary in the coalmine of Political Hobbyism. Treating politics like a Quizshow, framing political information as a way of satisfying their own emotional and intellectual needs.
    Correct, but your Pants are on Fire, because you forgot to answer in the form of a question.


    Speaking of treating Politics as a game. There's Politico..

    Tt’s Biden’s fault virus in spreading in red states where Republicans refuse to get vaccinated!
    The Biden administration’s coronavirus surge teams have yet to materialize in states across the Midwest and South where the highly contagious Delta variant is leading to a rapid rise in hospitalizations

  16. #9076
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I’ll give Biden little more credit here, though, seeing as he’s not couching this whole thing in “the numbers were fake before and now they’re real” like trump did.
    That's fair.

    And others have pointed out, Biden has said things like "let's be safe about this" as opposed to "it's just one Chinese Hoax coming from a lab, we'll be fine". PolitiFact said Half-True and I'm more or less in line with that.

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    Hey, remember that time when Trump, faced with issues from North Korea, to Iran, to the decline of the coal market, to racial injustice, to COVID, to the opioid epidemic, took a brave and firm stand against shower heads?

    Pepperidge Farm remembers.

    Biden's Energy Dept is moving to re-instate the rule that Trump removed, putting things back in 2013 terms. Another Trump "accomplishment", washed away.

  17. #9077
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    That's fair.

    And others have pointed out, Biden has said things like "let's be safe about this" as opposed to "it's just one Chinese Hoax coming from a lab, we'll be fine". PolitiFact said Half-True and I'm more or less in line with that.
    I’d give him “mostly true,” at least based off what politifact quoted. They make a note of the context missing, but I’d say that the upswing we’re seeing is due at least in part to Biden’s competent handling of Covid. Moreover, he’s not responsible for the jobs lost that have yet to be made back up in any sense of the matter because he wasn’t president as they were disappearing.

    But that’s really just splitting hairs.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2021-07-16 at 06:42 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #9078
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    As a 2-time Iraq veteran, you simply could not be more wrong. But you already knew that. We went over there with clear missions and goals. Those goals were designed to help the war-effort and, as you might have guess, win that effort. What are you even talking about here?
    Most of the vets I have talked to knew the mission was doomed because while the military had a clear mission, it was not going to be sufficient to end the insurgency. I have never said the military lacked clear goals and missions, just that that was the only thing we used to "win" while not being willing to go to the lengths needed to win with nothing but a hammer. Then again most vets I know are senior NCOs or intel types, which could explain the clearer understanding of the futility of trying to win through combat.

  19. #9079
    Anyone been paying attention to all these guys who keep getting arrested with tons of guns and ammo plotting to do mass shootings?

    NBA allstar game, democratic party offices etc. One of these will get through eventually. Seems too be ticking away in the background.

  20. #9080
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Anyone been paying attention to all these guys who keep getting arrested with tons of guns and ammo plotting to do mass shootings?

    NBA allstar game, democratic party offices etc. One of these will get through eventually. Seems too be ticking away in the background.
    I’d say them getting caught is evidence that they aren’t as clandestine as they think they are.

    I’ll take it as a silver lining if these stupid fucks exposing themselves in the insurrection attempt leads to rounding them and their fellow yallqaeda up before they can go on some insane rampage.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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